| Press for Fall of 1901 in pouchtoo |
Movement
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Whew. Turkey and Austria both played nice to me, and England is not *quite* going all-out Churchill. But you were right, John is in for some trouble, looks like. This next round should be fun. Jamie
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Well, I am disappointed with my own opening. Too nice to everyone. DMZ'ed Piedmont, et al., and Tyr and even Ven/Tri. My little world is extremely little. Manus
Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
Good thing I warned you, huh? Lotta good it did. If you're working on England, let me know whether you are aiming to get him to attack F or just to leave you alone. He might decide that a F/G war is a good opportunity to begin funneling armies through Norway. Tsar Jamie
Message from Russia to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
Dear Sultan, I thought that went pretty well. I was biting my nails over trusting you to leave the Black Sea vacant, given what everyone was telling me about your northward predilections, but I'm glad I did. Italy is certainly making it abundantly clear that he's going to play Lepanto, huh? No other possible attacks are left for him! I can't say I like the way things are shaping up in the north, but I think I'll keep playing mainly in the south and worry about that later. Tsar Jamie p.s. From your recent broadcast, I see what you mean about all that junk at the end. I think you might solve that problem by ending your mail to the Judge with the word "signoff". And use the "endpress" command at the end of all press. I *think* that will do it.
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Dear Kaiserungarn, Ah, very good. I'm happy, you're happy, everybody's happy so far. Except Germany. I think I want you to have your A Bud support my F Rum to hold. Tsar Jamie
Message from Russia to France in 'pouchtoo':
Coming out swinging? Or, massive deception to mask an evil FEG? Time will tell! Tsar Jamie
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
King Kal, I assume you have stopped worrying about that FG alliance. Fleet in Norway, not army, please. Ok? Tsar Jamie
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Oh, come on. You didn't *want* to take over Austria in the opening, because you were afraid of the horrible Juggernaut, remember? And you thought it would be foolish to open westward in a game like this one, and I think you are right. You have a nice, flexible position, and things are proceeding safely, and you are sure to get your share of Turkey when the axe falls on his turkey little neck, and you won't have to worry about any northern fleetbuilder for quite a while. And you have the best possible ally, don't forget that. So you don't pick up Trieste or Marseilles in 1901, big deal. I assure you, at least one of those will be yours in time. I admit that it would be more interesting if you had an army in Tyrolia, though. I'll give you that one. Why not discuss it with Austria and send one heading that way now? Tsar Jamie (moonlighting as psychotherapist)
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo': >I assume you have stopped worrying about that FG alliance. Pretty darn good assumption, I'd say...>Fleet in Norway, not army, please. Ok? Promise. One thing I might point out after looking at the Fall moves is this: England (moi) has F/G at odds and Russia with a full southern attack. Russia (toi) has Germany involved westward, Austria & Italy seemingly going after Turkey, Turkey being threatened by the two I just mentioned and a friendly English neighbour who is much more likely to choose a side in the west than attack north. What this all boils down to is that you and both have solid opportunities for expansion and no present threat to our security. I figure that means we should put that situation to our mutual advantage. To whit (I always wanted to say that), once the current situations develop a little further and our respective neighbours get completely involved, I can foresee a E/R juggernaut sweeping down out of the north crushing all opposition in our wake. Okay, so the cough syrup may have been a little strong this morning. Either way, it's something we should look at. If nothing else, it would probably take the rest of the board by surprise, an E/R seemingly out of nowhere. Comments? King Kal
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Oh, don't worry about my attitude -- I was mostly joshing about having a bad, boring opening. > And you have the best possible ally, > As do you.... > don't forget that. > I won't. :-) > So you don't pick up Trieste or Marseilles in 1901, big deal. I assure you, > at least one of those will be yours in time. > (Salivation.) > I admit that it would be more interesting if you had an army in Tyrolia, > though. I'll give you that one. Why not discuss it with Austria and send > one heading that way now? > Okey-doke. I just may do that.... It'd be nice to have something to do with my extra unit. > Tsar Jamie (moonlighting as psychotherapist) > Uh oh. What's the charge? Manus
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>>Fleet in Norway, not army, please. Ok? > > >Promise. Ok, good, now I can stop thinking about the north. > One thing I might point out after looking at the Fall moves ?? You mean, the Spring moves? Or, "after looking at the various possible Fall moves"? >England (moi) has F/G at odds and Russia with a full southern attack. >Russia (toi) has Germany involved westward, Austria & Italy seemingly going >after Turkey, Turkey being threatened by the two I just mentioned and a >friendly English neighbour who is much more likely to choose a side in the >west than attack north. True. Not unusual for England, but quite a surprise for Russia, to have that sort of security. Of course, it is not *obvious* that Austria and Turkey will be at odds, but it is pretty clear that Turkey will be focusing on the threat from the Mediterranean side, and not on me. >What this all boils down to is that you and both have solid opportunities >for expansion and no present threat to our security. I figure that means we >should put that situation to our mutual advantage. To whit (I always wanted >to say that), once the current situations develop a little further and our >respective neighbours get completely involved, I can foresee a E/R >juggernaut sweeping down out of the north crushing all opposition in our >wake. I can see that. Especially considering the fact that there's no possible stalemate line against us. (My favorite part of playing Russia :-)) >Okay, so the cough syrup may have been a little strong this morning. Either >way, it's something we should look at. If nothing else, it would probably >take the rest of the board by surprise, an E/R seemingly out of nowhere. Indeed. Well, let's see. Obviously, it will be a few years before anything like a serious thrust by us is possible. One nice thing is that we would hardly ever have to cooperate right out in the open, I mean, we wouldn't be supporting each other's moves except in case of an invasion of Germany. So the thing would be extremely well masked. The alliance would really mainly consist of our always choosing the 'right' next target, and never interfering in the other's projects (except possibly in Germany). Off hand, I think we'd need maybe some Italian help at some point. Or Austrian help, depending on various factors, but probably Italian if everything goes reasonably well for both of us. And then in the ending it might be you and me racing for Tunisia, or even preparing a 17-17 split (is this really feasible with E and R? I've never thought about it) and poor old Italy desperately hoping that his central position controlling the winning centers would be enough to get him a share of a draw... but this may be too painful for you to contemplate. :-) Hm, I must have that same brand of cough medicine. No, seriously, I always like thinking about these Big Picture plans, even though we both know that they are so often foiled by unforeseen developments. And I like the picture you drew, it's my favorite big picture so far. Tsar Jamie
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Greetings! Well, we DMZ'ed Venice and Trieste just fine. It looks like our friendship is secure. Given that, I would like to discuss with you the possibility of me breaking our DMZ. :-)
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>> And you have the best possible ally, >> >As do you.... Hey, that must mean we have the same ally! I wonder who it is. >> Tsar Jamie (moonlighting as psychotherapist) >> >Uh oh. What's the charge? Reckless endangerment? Turkicide in the first degree? Tsar J
Message from Germany to France in 'pouchtoo':
Now that was not very friendly.
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> >> And you have the best possible ally, > >> > >As do you.... > > Hey, that must mean we have the same ally! I wonder who it is. > If you find out, let me know. I'm dying to learn. > >Uh oh. What's the charge? > > Reckless endangerment? Turkicide in the first degree? > Guilty. ...Well, guilty-to-be? Wrote Austria about Tyrolian possibilities. When (i.e., if) I hear back from him, I'll let you know. Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>Wrote Austria about Tyrolian possibilities. When (i.e., if) >I hear back from him, I'll let you know. Not holding my breath. It would be a lot easier to play this game if Austria would write. He hasn't said anything to me since the move, either, and practically nothing before. In fact, if Turkey had been more talkative, I think I would have lobbied you to change your tack and go after Austria first. But Steve is also mute, so what the hell, may as well go with the plan. Tsar J
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo': >Hm, I must have that same brand of cough medicine. It's "Jack" something... um, Daniels! That's it! Jack Daniels Rumatiz medicine... @-) >No, seriously, I always like thinking about these Big Picture plans, even >though we both know that they are so often foiled by unforeseen >developments. And I like the picture you drew, it's my favorite big picture >so far. Yeah, mine too. It has a certain "elegance" about it. The thing to do now is just put it on the back burner until our respective situations develop. We'll stay in touch. King Kal
Message from England to France in 'pouchtoo':
Well, that was a bit of an eye opener. To me at least. I can understand John going for Burgandy if he didn't want you there, but to go to Denmark at the same time? Weird. Now he really only has Denmark as a guaranteed build. Hmmm, mysteriouser and mysteriouser. Anyway, it makes things easy for us vis-a-vis Belgium. I trust our previous deal is still on, so I'll just convoy in this turn. I assume you'll be taking a shot at Munich (just in case)? Have you heard anything from anybody? I think everybody is waiting for the other person to write in this game. ttyl King Kal
Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
Looks like you guessed right about Hohn, eh? Too bad he supported the Burgandy move. Would you have any objection if I convoyed my army into Belgium this turn? You aren't in a position to pick it up and I can (at least) make sure that Hohn won't have it either. Also, that second build (should I get it) will make it easier for me to have the firepower to attack him with in S02 (which I have definitely decided to do, btw). Comments? King Kal
Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Well, I feel a bit better now that F/G appears to be simply a product of my paranoid mind... :) Turkey sure looks to be cooked. Italy opening with an apparent Lepanto. Austria trusting Italy enough to leave Trieste open. Russia moving both armies straight south. I'm glad *I* don't have the yellow blox this game! Heard any interesting gossip? I haven't heard much of anything yet, aside >from John and Hohn both being REAL NICE to me (at least for the moment)... ttyl King Kal
Message from England to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
Let's see... Russia moving three units south... Italy opening with an apparent Lepanto... Austria trusting Italy enough to not even cover Trieste... Just three more reasons to wish you hadn't drawn Turkey, eh? King Kal
Message from England to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Cyrille: Not a lot for us to talk about so far this game, but I still wanted to keep communications open. Looks like a pretty good first turn for you. Italy didn't attack and Russia isn't in Galicia. Not a bad start. Keep it up and good luck! King Kal
Message from Turkey to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Dear Jamie, You wrote: >I thought that went pretty well. I was biting my nails over trusting you to leave the Black Sea vacant, given what everyone was telling me about your northward predilections, but I'm glad I did. > I am as well. It goes to show that you can't believe everyone and especially not Hohn. However, now we've got to be a bit more precise about the nature and intention of our relationship. I, especially in light of the Western situation, wish to forge ahead with the R-T. I am concerned by the non-move into Gal as it gives the impression that you and Austria are tight. > >Italy is certainly making it abundantly clear that he's going to play Lepanto, huh? No other possible attacks are left for him! > Well, that's not precisely true. He could convoy to Greece. A serious Lepanto involves landing an army into greater Turkey and that's just a possibility right now. Italy's opening, I believe consigns him to a game without major breakout possibilities. The hold in Rom is terrible. I liketo use the second army vs. Russia (nothing like an Italian in War in '02). Fortunately for us, these Italians are quite nice. > >I can't say I like the way things are shaping up in the north, but I think I'll keep playing mainly in the south and worry about that later. > The good news: Germany is probably so scared that you will walk into Swe. The bad news: France and England opened strongly, Germany flailed and Italy stuck his head in the sand. Depending on how E-F split the builds, you may be facing King Kal in force by mid '03. If nothing else, France is already in a very nice position. If he can convince E to let him have three builds, convoy to Nwy and bounce G out of Hol, wow! And if G does something stupid along the way, stand by... I am looking for a commitment from you; then we can discuss our various tactical options. Sultan Steve.
Message from Turkey to England in 'pouchtoo':
King Kal, >Let's see... > >Russia moving three units south... >Italy opening with an apparent Lepanto... >Austria trusting Italy enough to not even cover Trieste... You left out Russia and Austria not fighting over Gal. > You two certainly have all the options. So far, Italy's looking feeble, Germany's on the ropes and I'm fighting for fifth place. It's early, but you and his Hohnnes look good. Any chance of a convoy to Nwy? Any tips? Take care, Sultan Steve
Message from Turkey to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Cyrille, Okay, now what? You've certainly managed to keep your options open. = I'm hoping I can coax you into making a (much) more definitive statement = this turn. And, I'd like it to be a statement for me, not Russia. I am = not greedy. I'm perfectly willing to split the centers and move in a = way that makes you comfortable. I just want someone to work with me. = Make it easy on both of us and "just say 'yes'". Steve
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Dear Kaiserungarn, Are you listening? I am worried that you aren't getting my mail. Please tell me what you want to do in the Fall. Tsar Jamie
Message from Russia to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
Dear Sultan Steve, >I, especially in light of the >Western situation, wish to forge ahead with the R-T. I am concerned by the >non-move into Gal as it gives the impression that you and Austria are tight. I was hedging. Isn't that obvious? >Well, that's not precisely true. He could convoy to Greece. A serious >Lepanto involves landing an army into greater Turkey and that's just a >possibility right now. It's possible, but it doesn't make sense. If he had any plan to attack Austria that brazenly, surely he would have an army bordering Trieste right now. I can't imagine a more Austria-friendly opening than the Italian one. >I liketo use the second army vs. Russia (nothing like an Italian in War in >'02). I like to put it Tyrolia, too, but usually planning to use it to balance things in the north. If Germany is under fire, I use it to support Munich; if Germany looks too aggressive, I use it to harass Munich. It's really too bad the actual Italy doesn't have A Tyo right now. I don't care if France grows a lot. (In fact, it might be good for us. If we do get kind of locked up against Austria and Italy, we want Italy looking over his shoulder.) I do care if England has too easy a time. You think France will get Belgium, but I think England will convoy to Belgium. England is neutral so far between Germany and France; I believe France will offer Belgium as an incentive. This winter I might build F Stp(nc) to correct the situation. But that depends on how things look in the south. >I am looking for a commitment from you; then we can discuss our various >tactical options. You have your commitment. Here's how I see the situation. With strong and strongly allied France and England, I couldn't afford to join a 3-way alliance with Austria and Italy even if they offered, because once they finished cutting you up Italy would have to turn west, and I'd surely be fighting Austria and England, both. By telling you that I'm complimenting you, in case you didn't notice. I could just promise and commit and so forth, but I'm showing you *why* I'm going with the R/T instead. What do you think I should do with the F Rum? My inclination is to rotate the three units: Rum-Sev, Sev-Ukr, Ukr-Rum. A better move is Rum-Bla, Sev-Rum, Ukr-Gal, but I suspect you will insist that the Black Sea remain vacant. As for you, since you'll get just one build, I suggest you order Con-Aeg, Ank-Con, and build F Smy. Otherwise you'll have real trouble with the Italian fleets. Tsar Jamie
Message from France to France in 'pouchtoo':
> Message from [email protected] as Germany to France in 'pouchtoo': > Now that was not very friendly. I agree, you trying to move to BUR after telling me you were OK with it but would ask for my support into BEL was definitely an unfriendly move. Good thing I was careful. What now, John? Ball's in your court. Wanna fight? Or do you want to try to patch things up? Hohn
Message from France to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
> Message from [email protected] as Germany to France in 'pouchtoo': > Now that was not very friendly. I agree completely. You trying to move to BUR after telling me you were OK with it and would in fact want my support into BEL in Fall was definitely an unfriendly move. Good thing I was careful. What now, John? Ball's in your court. Wanna fight? Or do you want to try to patch things up? Hohn
Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
Sure, convoy away. Better you in there than France. Best of luck. Kaiser J
Message from France to England in 'pouchtoo':
Cal, > Message from [email protected] as England to France in 'pouchtoo': > Well, that was a bit of an eye opener. To me at least. I can understand > John going for Burgandy if he didn't want you there, but to go to Denmark at > the same time? Weird. Now he really only has Denmark as a guaranteed > build. Hmmm, mysteriouser and mysteriouser. Plus he needlessly antagonized me. Had he just asked for the mutual bounce, I probably would have given it to him. But he said he was OK with it, and I took him at his word. Good thing I took out a little Marseilles insurance. ;) > Anyway, it makes things easy for us vis-a-vis Belgium. I trust our previous > deal is still on, so I'll just convoy in this turn. I assume you'll be > taking a shot at Munich (just in case)? We could do it that way. Alternatively, we could totally trash John by bouncing him in HOL while I take BEL. I'm hesitant to even suggest this, as I don't really want three builds (I know, poor baby), and I know you'll be uncomfortable with the idea. But the opportunity to slam him this hard, this fast...it's sooooooo juicy! We'd have initial disparity, for sure. But we'd rectify the situation immediately in 1902. And I hope you know I wouldn't be dumb enough to stab you, thus making enemies of you AND John when I could have a solid ally and a DEAD John, instead. By the time I'd even be _tempted_ to stab you (i.e. when John is completely neutralized), we'd have assuredly equalized centers and power by then, which would obviously dissuade me. I'll also agree to build no fleets in BRE, certainly. It's just a thought. If you're not willing, I'll certainly abide by the original agreement. > Have you heard anything from anybody? I think everybody is waiting for the > other person to write in this game. A one-liner from John. You, and Jamie. That's it. I think you're right (I personally have been swamped, as usual). Any other thoughts on the turn? My personal ones are that everyone is opening conservatively (well, except John, and he paid for his gamble). Hohn
Message from Germany to France in 'pouchtoo':
Last minute word came to me that you were likely to attack. If you recall, you said it was okay if I bounced you in Bur, so that's what I tried to do. I knew you were moving there, so my move cannot possibly be construed as an attempt to get into Bur myself. Supporting your move is the hostile act, not my defensive move in response to what turned out to be solid information. That's not to say the situation is irretrievable, but let's call a spade a spade. I never wanted to fight. My wishy-washy strategy was to take the neutrals and see what shaped up. So far, not so good. I am very interested in disengagement. What do you propose? John
Message from France to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
John, > Message from [email protected] as Germany to France in 'pouchtoo': > Last minute word came to me that you were likely to attack. If you > recall, you said it was okay if I bounced you in Bur, so that's what I > tried to do. I knew you were moving there, so my move cannot possibly > be construed as an attempt to get into Bur myself. Supporting your move > is the hostile act, not my defensive move in response to what turned out > to be solid information. > That's not to say the situation is irretrievable, but let's call a spade > a spade. Come on. If you want to call a spade a spade, let's look back on what you said previously: > I am reconciled to you moving to Bur. I would appreciate your help in > taking Belgium. In regard to England, I'd prefer to leave options open > until we see the first round. If that's okay with you, I think we are > set.
Message from Germany to France in 'pouchtoo':
Hohn, you wrote the following: >>But you lied to me, John, or at the very least, you attempted to mislead me. Your attempt to construe my support of PAR-BUR as hostile when you had told me that my moving to BUR was OK with you anyway is disingenuous, and flatly rejected. Unless you are prepared to take personal responsibility for your own diplomatic statements, I'm afraid we have little else to talk about. I can deal with, "OK, I tried to mess with you, sorry, let's try to move on from here." I have no desire to engage any further than I already have in drawn out "he said, she said" arguments, however. The tone and substance of your prior message to me regarding BUR/BEL is clear.<< Now, I think it would be quite easy for overheated rhetoric to get in the way of rational action at this point. My last message told you the truth. I was apprised of possible attack just prior to the last move. I tried to do the least possible to meet the rumored challenge, which was to do the bounce in Burgundy. If you had not supported the move, the result would have been a simple standoff and no harm done. I did not try to mess with you. It is quite true also that I did not move into position to take Belgium as I said I would, but I wonder what you would have done, given such information? In light of the rumor, I did interpret your support for Par-Bur as hostile. I can understand your reasoning, however, and I see no reason to question your motives. Hmmm. Perhaps my info source was trying to poison the well. My bad, then, for being gullible. I agree to your suggestions for disengagement. Your proposal is fair and sensible. I wish now I'd gone ahead with my original orders and defended in Fall if I thought it necessary. John
Message from France to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
John, > Now, I think it would be quite easy for overheated rhetoric to get in > the way of rational action at this point. I'm a blunt writer, John. I think you know that by now, and hope you understand it's nothing personal. > My last message told you the > truth. I was apprised of possible attack just prior to the last move. > I tried to do the least possible to meet the rumored challenge, which > was to do the bounce in Burgundy. If you had not supported the move, > the result would have been a simple standoff and no harm done. I did > not try to mess with you. It is quite true also that I did not move > into position to take Belgium as I said I would, but I wonder what you > would have done, given such information? In light of the rumor, I did > interpret your support for Par-Bur as hostile. I can understand your > reasoning, however, and I see no reason to question your motives. > Hmmm. Perhaps my info source was trying to poison the well. My bad, > then, for being gullible. I'm not taking issue with whether or not you received word of some kind of impending attack by me on you. I'm taking issue with the fact that you said you were OK with me moving to and getting into BUR, but then tried to bounce me. That is the lie/mislead I was referring to. And again, how can I "attack" you in Spring 1901? I'd already told you I was moving to BUR, and you'd already agreed to my being there. What could anyone else tell you about an attack by me that would make you any more uneasy, to the point where you want to try to invade my country in violation of our prior agreement? How is an attack by me on you even _possible_, under the parameters of the game and our negotiations? > I agree to your suggestions for disengagement. Your proposal is fair > and sensible. I wish now I'd gone ahead with my original orders and > defended in Fall if I thought it necessary. OK, sounds good. Let's try to move on from here, then. Hohn
Message from England to France in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as France to England in 'pouchtoo': >Plus he needlessly antagonized me. Had he just asked for the mutual >bounce, I probably would have given it to him. But he said he was OK >with it, and I took him at his word. Good thing I took out a little >Marseilles insurance. ;) I'm surprised he said he was okay with it. In his letters to me, he seemed really opposed to the idea. >> Anyway, it makes things easy for us vis-a-vis Belgium. I trust our previous >> deal is still on, so I'll just convoy in this turn. I assume you'll be >> taking a shot at Munich (just in case)? > >We could do it that way. Alternatively, we could totally trash John >by bouncing him in HOL while I take BEL. I've already thought of this, but I think I'd rather do it the way I suggested, pretty much for the reason you outline below: the disparity caused with you at three builds. Plus, do you REALLY want to get three builds and set yourself as a target? You'd be sending fire alarms to the guys in the East... >I'm hesitant to even suggest this, as I don't really want three builds >(I know, poor baby), and I know you'll be uncomfortable with the idea. >But the opportunity to slam him this hard, this fast...it's sooooooo >juicy! > >We'd have initial disparity, for sure. But we'd rectify the situation >immediately in 1902. And I hope you know I wouldn't be dumb enough to >stab you, thus making enemies of you AND John when I could have a >solid ally and a DEAD John, instead. I think with both of us against him and a bad result in S01, John is pretty much on the ropes anyway. >By the time I'd even be _tempted_ to stab you (i.e. when John is >completely neutralized), we'd have assuredly equalized centers and >power by then, which would obviously dissuade me. I'll also agree to >build no fleets in BRE, certainly. > >It's just a thought. If you're not willing, I'll certainly abide by >the original agreement. I'd prefer that, if you don't mind. >> Have you heard anything from anybody? I think everybody is waiting for the >> other person to write in this game. > >A one-liner from John. You, and Jamie. That's it. I think you're >right (I personally have been swamped, as usual). Was the one-liner from John fit for family consumption? grin >Any other thoughts on the turn? My personal ones are that everyone is >opening conservatively (well, except John, and he paid for his >gamble). I'd agree with your assessment. So far, only Turkey and Germany seem to be in any kind of trouble. ttyl King Kal
Message from England to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Turkey to England in 'pouchtoo': >>Russia moving three units south... >>Italy opening with an apparent Lepanto... >>Austria trusting Italy enough to not even cover Trieste... > >You left out Russia and Austria not fighting over Gal. I didn't want to depress you TOO much... >You two certainly have all the options. So far, Italy's looking feeble, >Germany's on the ropes and I'm fighting for fifth place. It's early, but >you and his Hohnnes look good. Any chance of a convoy to Nwy? Probably not. I want to see the situation in the West resolved a bit more before I think about taking on Russia. >Any tips? You know a good priest? :) I'll let you know if I hear anything you can use. King Kal
Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
> Well, I feel a bit better now that F/G appears to be simply a product of my > paranoid mind... :) > For your sake, let's hope so. If you and Hohn are headed for Germany, maybe you guys will even toss li'l ol' me a bone. > Turkey sure looks to be cooked. Italy opening with an apparent Lepanto. > Austria trusting Italy enough to leave Trieste open. Russia moving both > armies straight south. I'm glad *I* don't have the yellow blox this game! > Well, I honestly haven't yet decided the whole Turkish issue. I've been lucky with Austria honoring the Tri/Ven DMZ, but I truly don't have any plans beyond Tunis. > Heard any interesting gossip? I haven't heard much of anything yet, aside > from John and Hohn both being REAL NICE to me (at least for the moment)... > That's more than I hear. Russia writes once in a while, and Hohn has been in touch. Turkey wrote back to my "don't be afraid of me; I have no plans" mail. But it's a very quiet game. :-( Manus
Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
I just got an interesting piece of mail from someone who says you are thinking of asking me if I want to start with Greece rather than Tunis. For as silent as this game is, word does tend to get around, I guess, huh? Anyway, if this is indeed something you would like to discuss with me, feel free to contact me personally. Manus
Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo': >For your sake, let's hope so. If you and Hohn are headed for Germany, maybe >you guys will even toss li'l ol' me a bone. Don't worry. The welfare of the Italian peoples and their leader is never far from my mind... :) >> Turkey sure looks to be cooked. Italy opening with an apparent Lepanto. >> Austria trusting Italy enough to leave Trieste open. Russia moving both >> armies straight south. I'm glad *I* don't have the yellow blox this game! >> >Well, I honestly haven't yet decided the whole Turkish issue. I've been >lucky with Austria honoring the Tri/Ven DMZ, but I truly don't have any plans >beyond Tunis. It's good to know your plans are flexible. I know we'll be able to work together, perhaps even sooner than we expected. >> Heard any interesting gossip? I haven't heard much of anything yet, aside >> from John and Hohn both being REAL NICE to me (at least for the moment)... >> >That's more than I hear. Russia writes once in a while, and Hohn has been >in touch. Turkey wrote back to my "don't be afraid of me; I have no plans" >mail. But it's a very quiet game. :-( Hopefully, it will pick up after another turn or two when people start to get involved. King Kal
Message from Turkey to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Manus, You wrote: >I just got an interesting piece of mail from someone who says you are thinking of asking me if I want to start with Greece rather than Tunis. For as silent as this game is, word does tend to get around, I guess, huh? Anyway, if this is indeed something you would like to discuss with me, feel free to contact me personally. Well, okay, what do you think about it? I have nothing else to do with Bul anyway, so I'm more than willing. And, frankly, if I could somehow believe I had gained favor in your sight, I'd be happy to build an army. I would request that you agree to go no further east by sea. I would also suggest a move of Rom-Ven (duh!) as the Austrian would no doubt be quite angry. I don't believe in being greedy nor in dividing centers that are not yet ours. Therefore, I will merely pledge to work closely with you and choose the best tactical/political option vs. Austria. Of course, all of this presumes Austria will not support himself in. He initially indicated some interest in going for Rum. I'll try to stoke those fires. This is merely one suggestion. I'm open to others and would like to work with you. I know you want to build a second fleet and I'm looking for ways to avoid feeling forced to compete with you. Work with me. Steve > >Manus >
Message from Turkey to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Cyrille, Well, the deadline approaches! I can't believe I've done anything to = hack you off, so I'll assume you've been busy. Have you any interest in Rumania? I've got no problem with you getting = three builds as long as they're all armies. I want an ally and I'm not = going to quibble over a center or two. I assume your intent on taking = Gre; no problem. What is your relationship with Italy? He seems quite willing to = negotiate, but I'm unsure of his reliability. The Russian is obviously = intent on the south, but didn't want to fully commit to either of us. = He's a major danger; that is why I'm proposing the move into Rum. It = also (I hope) would solidify our relationship. Let me know. =20 Steve =20
Message from Turkey to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Tsar Jamie, You wrote: >I was hedging. Isn't that obvious? Yeah, but I wanted confession. >It's possible, but it doesn't make sense. If he had any plan to attack >Austria that brazenly, surely he would have an army bordering Trieste right >now. I can't imagine a more Austria-friendly opening than the Italian one. > By the way, Italy passed along that "someone" had mentioned to him that I was interested in supporting him into Gre. I don't care--just want you to know that he's a bit of a leaky faucet. >>I liketo use the second army vs. Russia (nothing like an Italian in War in '02). >I like to put it Tyrolia, too, but usually planning to use it to balance >things in the north. If Germany is under fire, I use it to support Munich; >if Germany looks too aggressive, I use it to harass Munich. It's really >too >bad the actual Italy doesn't have A Tyo right now. >> Yup. Hohn is on top of the world at the moment. I can only hope that Cal, who knows how good Cho is, will stab early and hard. >I don't care if France grows a lot. (In fact, it might be good for us. If >we do get kind of locked up against Austria and Italy, we want Italy >looking over his shoulder.) I do care if England has too easy a time. You >think France will get Belgium, ***I didn't say that. I would not have been surprised--until Cal told me he was putting the fleet in Nwy (which I believe)******* >but I think England will convoy to Belgium. I agree. >>I am looking for a commitment from you; then we can discuss our various >>tactical options. >You have your commitment. >> Excellent! >> >Here's how I see the situation. With strong and strongly allied France and England, I couldn't afford to join a 3-way alliance with Austria and Italy even if they offered, because once they finished cutting you up Italy would have to turn west, and I'd surely be fighting Austria and England, both. >By telling you that I'm complimenting you, in case you didn't notice. I >could just promise and commit and so forth, but I'm showing you *why* I'm >going with the R/T instead. >> Not only do I feel complimented, I think your assessment is right on the money. >>> >What do you think I should do with the F Rum? My inclination is to rotate the three units: Rum-Sev, Sev-Ukr, Ukr-Rum. A better move is Rum-Bla, >Sev-Rum, Ukr-Gal, but I suspect you will insist that the Black Sea remain >vacant. I will not insist that it remain vacant as long as you tell me what you will do with it in S'02. Are you sure you'll get Rum with no support? Is Austria merely holding? >As for you, since you'll get just one build, I suggest you order Con-Aeg, Ank-Con, and build F Smy. Otherwise you'll have real trouble with the Italian fleets. Who says I'm only getting one build? OK, you're right. I believe we will be fine. I've no fear of Italy (yet) and his playing an army short (practically speaking) will insure that we will defeat Austria, particularly if you get Gal and Rum this turn. If you do, I want an autographed 8x10 glossy. Sultan Steve
Message from Turkey to France in 'pouchtoo':
Hohn, You ARE the man! With the pressure on and the whole world watching, you = shut Germany down, Italy crawls into a whole and England obeys your = every command. Seriously, you are off to a great start. I tried to get = Cal to convoy to Nwy, but no dice. He could put Nwg in Nwy and bounce G = out of Hol, but you're not THAT good, are you? Steve
Message from France to England in 'pouchtoo':
Cal, > I'm surprised he said he was okay with it. In his letters to me, he seemed > really opposed to the idea. Well, what he told you and what he told me pretty clearly differed (which isn't too surprising, I suppose). ;-) > I've already thought of this, but I think I'd rather do it the way I > suggested, pretty much for the reason you outline below: the disparity > caused with you at three builds. Plus, do you REALLY want to get three > builds and set yourself as a target? You'd be sending fire alarms to the > guys in the East... I know. The only reason I suggested doing it was because it would make our job against John _so_ much easier. > I think with both of us against him and a bad result in S01, John is pretty > much on the ropes anyway. See, the thing is, if he gets DEN and HOL, it's _not_ such a bad result for him. He gets two builds, same as you and me. True, if both of us are against him, we'll take him down eventually anyway; but it will take us longer, and in a game like this, I suspect every turn will count. Basically, the way I see it, letting him have HOL and having you in BEL just allows us all the option of fence-sitting for one more year. I'd personally rather have things declared, both because that will make me more comfortable, and because as I said above it will allow us to move more quickly on John (and eliminate him all the more quickly). I feel good about our alliance, Cal. I do. But until we're formally declared, until we move boldly against John, I'm sure you know that that army you're convoying into BEL could be used just as easily against me as it could be against John. And, if John builds one fleet and one army as I suspect he will if he builds two, then I'm also sure you know that that fleet could be used against _you_. See, that's why I prefer outright action when I'm confident in the alliance, as I am with you. Fence-sitting is not as powerful, tactically speaking, and it also leaves room for doubts, and those doubts can sometimes doom otherwise promising alliances. Now, I know you have your own security concerns--and it's my respect for you and your concerns that made me give you my commitment to supporting you into BEL, a commitment which I will certainly stand by, no matter what, if that's what you ultimately decide--but again, I ask you, would I ever consider stabbing you after making an enemy of John and building three this year? There's no way. I'd be slitting my own throat. Manus would be wary instantly, as soon as I built three, and John's predisposition toward me is amply demonstrated by his stab into BUR. If I were suicidal enough to turn against you as well, I'd have no allies and two, possibly three enemies. I'd really like to think I'm not quite that nuts. ;-) > >It's just a thought. If you're not willing, I'll certainly abide by > >the original agreement. > > I'd prefer that, if you don't mind. I understand, and I'll assume that's what we're going to do, unless my words above sway you. If they do, please just let me know and I'll change the plan. > >A one-liner from John. You, and Jamie. That's it. I think you're > >right (I personally have been swamped, as usual). > > Was the one-liner from John fit for family consumption? grin Heh. He said, "Now that wasn't very friendly." I of course responded with some sarcastic remark, and we had a bit of a fight over semantics and technicalities. Then he offered to "disengage," and for the time being, I've told him that was fine. > >Any other thoughts on the turn? My personal ones are that everyone is > >opening conservatively (well, except John, and he paid for his > >gamble). > > I'd agree with your assessment. So far, only Turkey and Germany seem to be > in any kind of trouble. Steve's a canny player, and I trust his ability to wiggle out of just about anything. John, well, he's hurting if he only gets one build. Otherwise, we have a serious fight on our hands. Hohn
Message from Turkey to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Tsar Jamie, >Hm. That's interesting. >I didn't tell him that. I've just checked my logs to make sure. OK, the only other possibility is that I mentioned it to E, which I don't believe I did (but I've not yet researched). In any event, the Italian has realized that he's painted himself into a very minor role and would like to change that. I'm working on the Greece angle with him, though I'm inclined to support you into Rum (I just wanted you to ask). If he'll go for it, I don't really care if it's successful or not. It will give us a huge edge on A-I. I've not heard from Cyrille either. I gather that Italy's in the dark as well. Again, this bodes well for us. I have to tell you that I'm not a big fan of your fleet "hanging out" (my term) in the Black. I can stomach it for this turn, but I would request in return that you build your army in War. This would help to preclude you being tempted to convoy into Ank or something similar. Also, you need War unless you get Gal this turn. Rumania's not in much danger unless Austria's got Gal or can afford to mount a credible attack on Bul. We have the edge. We're okay. Really. Assuming you get two builds, you'd be foolish not to throw something in the North, even if it's just A STP. Sev instead of War? I don't consider myself paranoid, but that would be expecting a lot from me. Sultan Steve
Message from Turkey to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Manus, >Thanks for your message. I am beginning to regret my non-commital Spring, >and am anxious to work with you with a committed direction. We could indeed >keep Austria out of Greece as you propose, but the cost would be my 1901 >build. Not necessarily. To KNOW, however, would require info from Cyrille and he's not writing. > >You are right that with my Tunis build, I would feel safer building a second >fleet. So would I, but "safer" doesn't always win. How about this as a compromise? Take the fleet to Tunis. You can then build your second fleet and I won't have to prepare for a possible invasion. Now that we have a couple of extra days, let's try to hammer this out. Steve
Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
> >keep Austria out of Greece as you propose, but the cost would be my 1901 > >build. > > Not necessarily. To KNOW, however, would require info from Cyrille and he's > not writing. > No, he sure isn't. > >You are right that with my Tunis build, I would feel safer building a > >second fleet. > > So would I, but "safer" doesn't always win. How about this as a compromise? > Take the fleet to Tunis. You can then build your second fleet and I won't > have to prepare for a possible invasion. > I think this would work fine for me. I'll do some thinking on it. Sorry so short -- horribly busy at work at the moment. Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Still no word from Austria. I tried writing to him directly, since he reported some difficulty getting Judge press a while ago, but no dice. I don't suppose you want to change the whole plan and eliminate Cyrille first, huh? It's just such a pain trying to make big plans with someone who doesn't talk at all. (On the other hand, if we do manage to root out Turkey, an absolutely silent Austria will ensure that neither of us is tempted to abandon the IR alliance!) Tsar J
Message from Russia to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
Dear Sultan Steve, >By the way, Italy passed along that "someone" had mentioned to him that I >was interested in supporting him into Gre. I don't care--just want you to >know that he's a bit of a leaky faucet. Hm. That's interesting. I didn't tell him that. I've just checked my logs to make sure. >I will not insist that it remain vacant as long as you tell me what you >will >do with it in S'02. Are you sure you'll get Rum with no support? Is >Austria merely holding? Unfortunately, I have no idea whatsoever what Austria will be doing. (I haven't heard a word from him since the S'01 results!) So, no, I'm not sure I'll get Rum without supporting. I suppose you have other plans for your A Bul than supporting my army into Rumania, huh? As for what I would do with a F Bla in S'02: my plan is to use it to support a new A Sev into Rum, while A Rum - Ser or Rum - Bud, for support-cutting purposes or even an attack; or else just S A Rum, or if neither of those is necessary, I'd put it back in Sev where it belongs. (Upon request I could have it support you to hold in Bulgaria, or support A Con-Bul if you were trying to move the A Bul.) Much as it would be helpful to have the extra fleet in the Med, I don't think it's feasible. If I tried to sail it through Con, I bet it would get stuck, or anyway the chances of that are much too high. (I feel sure you will agree.) Later, maybe, when you've cleared out some space in Aegean, or when we might temporarily trade centers to let my fleet out. Or you could just squish it (dislodge it and I'd disband it). That would be fine with me. It's amusing, but not terribly important tactically, for me to get that fleet into play. >Who says I'm only getting one build? OK, you're right. I believe we will >be fine. I've no fear of Italy (yet) and his playing an army short >(practically speaking) will insure that we will defeat Austria, >particularly >if you get Gal and Rum this turn. Hm, yes, that's a good point. I was a little worried about our getting bogged down. Hm. Well, if Austria adds Greece and Serbia, I'm not sure we'll be able to make progress against him. He'd presumably build two armies. With a lucky guess I could make some trouble for him, but it's not something I can count on. If Italy gets Greece, then I agree we have the upper hand. Oh, I get it. :-) Tsar Jamie
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> Still no word from Austria. > Ditto here. I now have two items outstanding -- a "can I move to Tyr" message and another issue (which I can't remember right now). > I don't suppose you want to change the whole plan and eliminate Cyrille > first, huh? It's just such a pain trying to make big plans with someone who > doesn't talk at all. (On the other hand, if we do manage to root out > Turkey, an absolutely silent Austria will ensure that neither of us is > tempted to abandon the IR alliance!) > I leave it to you. To be honest, either way is perfectly fine with me. Going after Austria first would work well for me in that it would allow me to gain some trust with Turkey (my opening seems to have frightened him no end). He has offered to support me to Greece, but of course Cyrille can support himself in). I have no front against either power yet, and it wouldn't bother me to set one up against either one. Manus
Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
Hello again: Thanks for your message. I am beginning to regret my non-commital Spring, and am anxious to work with you with a committed direction. We could indeed keep Austria out of Greece as you propose, but the cost would be my 1901 build. You are right that with my Tunis build, I would feel safer building a second fleet, despite this being bad for working on the Austrian and despite the fact that it may cause you some worry. I want very much to get past this and work actively with you. To build more armies (if we work against Austria -- if he is with us and you two head for Russia, I would stick to fleets and perhaps head west), my second build must come from Austria (there goes non-commitalness, huh?), and I am thankful to you for your offer of assistance into Greece. Wishing to hear your thoughts on all the above, Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Hmmmm. Hm hm hm. Well, it's tricky. You have no good attacks on Austria. If you tried to convoy, and either Austria supported a move to Gre or Turkey double-crossed you, you'd be kind of screwed. I wonder whether we can both finish the year without really committing either way. I could move an army to Rum and move my fleet to Black, you could convoy to Tun and maybe move the other army back to Venice. Hm, but then you'd be committing yourself by building. And sitting on the fence so long might just make Cyrille and Steve join up. Argh. Let's decide tomorrow. Tsar J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Jamie: Steve is writing much more than Cyrille, and his latest is a suggestion that I take Tunis with the fleet. I told him flat out at the gamestart that my first build will be a fleet, and he says he is willing to work with me (us) even with two Italian fleets, if the first of them lands in Tunis and leaves the armies in the boot. My whole rationale for telling him I wanted a second Turk-friendly fleet was to keep him from having naval aspirations, keep him bottled up in the corner for an A/I/R attack. Now that we may be having a change of heart, a show that my fleets really are Turk-friendly would be good anyway. But it might tip our re-thinking to Cyrille. On the other hand, worst case it just delays a Lepanto thrust for a season, making it all the more surprising if it does happen.... Hmm. What to do, what to do.... Manus
Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
> Given the lack of correspondence, four more days is just four more days to > wait. :) > I hear ya. (And that's about ALL I hear.) Manus
Message from France to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
Steve, > Message from [email protected] as Turkey to France in 'pouchtoo': > You ARE the man! With the pressure on and the whole world watching, you = > shut Germany down, Italy crawls into a whole and England obeys your = > every command. Seriously, you are off to a great start. I tried to get = > Cal to convoy to Nwy, but no dice. He could put Nwg in Nwy and bounce G = > out of Hol, but you're not THAT good, are you? Thanks buddy. Are you going to OrcCon this weekend? Hohn
Message from Russia to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
Sultan Steve, My plan was to build A War and A Sev. I do not particularly *want* to get involved in the North. In fact, I was hoping not to. I was hoping to have my F Swe just sit there and maybe support a neighbor, have him support me. Let the sparks fly, show the northerners that I am totally involved in the South, then as soon as Austria is on the ropes I'd jump in and make my presence felt in El Norte. However, if you are violently opposed to A Sev, then I'll build A Stp, A War. And then, sure, I don't mind moving the F to Sev in Spring '02. If I'm to be fighting Austria with just three armies (Austria will have at least three), I want to try to get Italy in on it. I assume you have no objection if I start to lobby Italy hard to get those armies of his bearing against Trieste, right? Along those lines, do you want him to convoy to Greece, or to move his fleet there? Tsar Jamie
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Manus, Cyrille isn't giving us much of a choice. I would still rather ally with him, but I don't see how we can. So let's say that unless we get a flurry of Austrian notes in the next couple of days, we're changing the plan. (Changing back again will require both of us to agree.) I see what you mean, if you land a fleet in Greece, that will be about the end of the chances for a real AIR witch hunt. Hm. I guess my instinct is that you ought to convoy to Tunis and order Rom-Ven. That still leaves both good options. I will try to leave my units in an ambiguous position, too, while giving the main impression that I am planning to help Turkey stave off the fiendish AustroItalian Conspiracy that is obviously brewing (Why isn't Cyrille talking to me or to Steve? He must be talking to *somebody*! I wasn't sure what to do, but now I see that I *have* to join forces with Turkey just for defense. That sort of thing.) Anyway, let me know what you decide. Or don't let me know, just go ahead! Tsar J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Your suggestions were exactly what I was considering doing. Convoy to Tunis and send Venice to Rome. I think that my leaning is now toward the more talkative Turkey, but my moves should allow me to continue my claim Austrian friendship if need be (i.e., if Cyrille sends me any mail) for at least another season. Manus
Message from Turkey to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Tsar Jamie, You wrote >My plan was to build A War and A Sev. I do not particularly *want* to get >involved in the North. In fact, I was hoping not to. I was hoping to have >my F Swe just sit there and maybe support a neighbor, have him support me. >Let the sparks fly, show the northerners that I am totally involved in the >South, then as soon as Austria is on the ropes I'd jump in and make my >presence felt in El Norte. Only problem is that leaves StP vulnerable any time England wants it. And, he's not likely to care for you propping up Germany. You can try to ride the fence, but weakness in the North is likely to invite English naughtiness. As for Austria, I have two armies as well you know. > >However, if you are violently opposed to A Sev, then I'll build A Stp, A >War. And then, sure, I don't mind moving the F to Sev in Spring '02. I much prefer it. > >If I'm to be fighting Austria with just three armies (Austria will have at >least three), I want to try to get Italy in on it. I assume you have no >objection if I start to lobby Italy hard to get those armies of his bearing >against Trieste, right? Not at all. I'm already on that and may have secured his promise to take a fleet to Tunis rather than convoy. This would be huge in the effort vs. Austria. > >Along those lines, do you want him to convoy to Greece, or to move his >fleet there? He doesn't want to go unless Austrian communications make it clear it would work. So far, there haven't been any. Sultan Steve
Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
Okay, I have decided on a course of action. I'm going to go ahead and convoy to Tunis (rather than dock the fleet there) and move my Rome army to Venice. I know you would prefer that I land the fleet, but this way I will be up against Greece for 1902 efforts. I don't want the fact that I'll be in the ION to frighten you. I would prefer to build a fleet in Naples (ION-ADR, NAP-ION would be the probability), but will at least consider building it in Rome if you are scared of a Lepanto thrust into your waters. Though Austria doesn't speak, if I build in Naples, he will think I am pro-A. By building in Rome, I just look indecisive. I think I can make him okay with Rom-Ven. So we will hopefully have his trust going into the next year. Manus
Message from Turkey to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Manus, > >Okay, I have decided on a course of action. I'm going to go ahead and convoy >to Tunis and move my Rome army to Venice. I can't stop it, but this is demanding a LOT of trust on my part and none on yours. You maintain (if you build F Nap) the ability to Lepanto, which virtually forces a build of F Smy. That's why I suggested the fleet move, so that my build could be something else. >I know you would prefer that I land the fleet, but this way I will be up >against Greece for 1902 efforts. I don't want the fact that I'll be in the >ION to frighten you. I would prefer to build a fleet in Naples (ION-ADR, >NAP-ION would be the probability), but will at least consider building it in >Rome if you are scared of a Lepanto thrust into your waters. How could I not be "scared" (I prefer "concerned" by the way)? I'm just asking for one (count'em 1) sign of trust here; something I can work with. If F Rom leaves Austria thinking you're neutral, maybe he'll offer something to woo you back! Maybe he'll write! I'm not threatening or anything of the sort. I just wonder, if the roles were reversed, on what basis would you be trusting Italy to not go through with the Lepanto promised in the initial negotiations? I don't want to build a second fleet. I want to work this out. I'm just not sure how to do that if you convoy and build F Nap. Help me! Steve
Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
Well, dang. I really truly want to make sure you know I'm your friend. In hindsight, opening to the TYS would have been the way to go now, but it's obviously too late for that. I always like to at least abut Greece in the opening in case both A and T decide it could go Italian. I do realize where you're coming from, though, but I want to make sure we are both having something to do. If I put my fleet in Tunis, I have a year before it can do anything at all. A fleet in Rome is a year and a half away from any action anywhere. If we are to attack Austria, it makes no sense to me to move away from there and lose a year. I'd like to agree to build an army, but it just wouldn't work. Three armies and a fleet is no way to go for Italy. I was afraid this would happen, and this is the reason I came to you before anything else in the game and said "I intend to build fleets and will open to the ION." I have been up front with you about it from the beginning, hoping that this would show my desire for friendship. I am real sorry that I have only raised your level of concern rather than lowered it. I consider it a major diplomatic failure on my part. I know you want to see a sign (more than just my words) that my seagoing intentions lie ION and westward and no further east, and I wish I could come up with such a sign to show you which doesn't take me out of position for actually making some progress. My moves are already in for Apu-Tun and Rom-Ven but if we can come up with something you like better and that gives me a good position for next Spring, I'm all for it. Dang, I just got busy at work and will need to resume this conversation later. Aauugghh! Manus
Message from Russia to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
Dear Sultan Steve, I know, leaving Stp open can be tempting to England. It would be a calculated risk. Anyway, I'm game for building A Stp, A War. So no problem there. I've suggested to Italy that it would be a very good idea for him to get those armies into a more aggressive posture. It's a shame that they can't get into the really good position they'd be ready for if he'd done something more ordinary with the A Ven (like hold!). But in any case, he seems amenable. I think he is a little worried about the idea of AI vs RT, considering that Cyrille isn't talking. He would like to make friends with either you or me now. So he ought to be open to at least a little persuasion, which will make things easier. I guess we're more or less set now. Let me know if you have any requests or if there are any new developments. Tsar J
Message from Turkey to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Tsar Jamie, I'm cool. The only development is Italy's insistence on playing a Lepanto and insisting that he's going to swing into Austria instead of me. On the face of it, it's great. But, I can't afford to not build F Smy (and might not anyway) when he'll have the ability to convoy into my backdoor if I don't keep pace. I had him taking the fleet back to Tun, but he changed his mind. Little matter with a comatose ally, Italy poses a small threat. Sultan Steve
Message from Turkey to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Manus, >Well, dang. I really truly want to make sure you know I'm your friend. >In hindsight, opening to the TYS would have been the way to go now, but it's >obviously too late for that. OK, help me out here. What is the difference between opening to TYS and moving to Tun now? Tactically, assuming the pick-up of Tun, there is none. >I do realize where you're coming from, though, but I want to make sure we are >both having something to do. If I put my fleet in Tunis, I have a year before >it can do anything at all. A fleet in Rome is a year and a half away from >any action anywhere. If we are to attack Austria, it makes no sense to me >to move away from there and lose a year. All true. But, even you must admit that it would be a HUGE leap of faith for me not to build the second fleet given the circumstances your proposing. With what I am proposing, you'll be in position for a F'02 move into Gre (hopefully with my support. I'd promise it now but that might be foolhardy given my complete lack of knowledge of what the board will look like.) and a shot at Tri if you move into Ven now. If Russia moves as promised, Austria may have other, more pressing concerns than your A Ven. > >I'd like to agree to build an army, but it just wouldn't work. Three armies >and a fleet is no way to go for Italy. I was afraid this would happen, >and this is the reason I came to you before anything else in the game and said >"I intend to build fleets and will open to the ION." I have been up front >with you about it from the beginning, hoping that this would show my desire >for friendship. I am real sorry that I have only raised your level of concern >rather than lowered it. I consider it a major diplomatic failure on my part. Well, the term "Lepanto" was a little scary. I believe you, but I'm not sure I want to stake my gaming life on it yet. > >I know you want to see a sign (more than just my words) that my seagoing >intentions lie ION and westward and no further east, and I wish I could come up >with such a sign to show you which doesn't take me out of position for actually >making some progress. My moves are already in for Apu-Tun and Rom-Ven but >if we can come up with something you like better and that gives me a good >position for next Spring, I'm all for it. > Well, again, consider A Rom-Tus (or hold), A Apu-Ven, F Ion-Tun. Build F Nap. Then, F Tun-Ion, F Nap-Tyh, A Ven-Tyl, A Rom-Ven. There are some good possibilities for the fall. Steve
Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
I think we're making progress! > OK, help me out here. What is the difference between opening to TYS and > moving to Tun now? Tactically, assuming the pick-up of Tun, there is none. > You've got a point there. I didn't think my statement out enough. I always open to ION because I like to test the Grecian waters. You're right that an opening to TYS puts me a season off my usual pace, and that's why I didn't. > All true. But, even you must admit that it would be a HUGE leap of faith > for me not to build the second fleet given the circumstances your proposing. > Yes, I suppose you're right. If you choose to build a second fleet, I will not (as most Italians would) consider it an act of war. Rather, I will view it as a defensive measure, and my moves will make it clear that our paths will not cross. > With what I am proposing, you'll be in position for a F'02 move into Gre > (hopefully with my support. I'd promise it now but that might be foolhardy > given my complete lack of knowledge of what the board will look like.) > My reason for wanting to stay in the ION is to make the possibility be a Spring one (though we might not exercise it until Fall, depending on how long we want to string the Silent Cyrille along) rather than a Fall one. > and a shot at Tri if you move into Ven now. > Indeed I am moving into Venice. > If Russia moves as promised, Austria > may have other, more pressing concerns than your A Ven. > I'm counting on it. :-) > Well, the term "Lepanto" was a little scary. I believe you, but I'm not > sure I want to stake my gaming life on it yet. > Understood. My apologies for tossing the scary word out there. Just wanted to acknowledge that Apu+ION in S01 might make you think the word, but that I have no intentions along those lines. I will understand if you protect your interests (as I probably would) but am very happy that we were able to talk about it all along so that we can work together no matter what army/fleet configuration we both choose. > Well, again, consider A Rom-Tus (or hold), A Apu-Ven, F Ion-Tun. Build F > Nap. Then, F Tun-Ion, F Nap-Tyh, A Ven-Tyl, A Rom-Ven. There are some good > possibilities for the fall. > My thinking sends Rom-Ven, Apu-Tun. "Half-Lepanto"? :-) I want to keep Austria (if his head is in the game at all) thinking that I am a friend to him. In '02, my new Naples fleet could go to ION while ION goes to ADR and in Fall I could convoy Tun-Tri or take it from Ven (w/ADR support) while you help me into Greece. I apologize for the rocky start, but I think by the end of '02 we will be very comfortable with each other. Manus
Message from Russia to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
Steve, That's a little disappointing, but it doesn't surprise me. I think Italy now sees that it's got to be an RIT alliance at the start, and he's just trying to position himself for the 'breakup' that comes when Austria begins to disappear. He wants to be the dominant Mediterranean power, so that you and I will fight each other instead of going our separate ways (with your separate way lying through Italy, and mine maybe through Germany with a little assist to your land division, I'm sure you get the picture). I hope that's what he's thinking, anyway. It's a superficially plausible plan, but I think you'll agree that it's not very well thought out. But we can discuss the details after the current phase is better established (like, when you're in Serbia and I'm in Budapest). Unless you'd rather get them all out on the table now? Tsar Jamie
Message from England to France in 'pouchtoo':
Geez, sorry this took so long, but I'm sure YOU can relate to long hours at work... :) Anyway, it was worth it. Just got a raise and a promotion! I admit your arguments in favour of going to Hol would make things harder for John, but I still want to stick with the original plan. I just honestly think that second build I can get will offset any advantage John may get with a second build of his own. I suppose, if I'm being honest with myself, the wimpy start I got in the last game that turned into a gamelong wheelspin is probably in the back of my mind, but I still think that we will have John by the short and curlies. If Russia had opened with a less southernly committed attack, I'd go along with you because then John would have a potential ally, but since Jamie did, John doesn't and I can live with that. As for your legitimate concern that I will be effectively "undeclared" in our war against John, I can understand that. In the Great White North, we call that "pulling an Edi"... if you catch my drift.... But anyway, that's something else I guess I have to ask you to do. My future actions will redeem me in your eyes. >> >Any other thoughts on the turn? My personal ones are that everyone is >> >opening conservatively (well, except John, and he paid for his >> >gamble). It bloody hard to get a read on a game when it's as damned close to GunBoat as this one seems to be. Even Jamie is only writing when written to and that's unusual (if Ghodstoo was any indication). Actually, that's another reason I want to work with you. Even though you go through "blackouts" when you get busy at work, for the most part you are a consistant communicator and will generally reply promptly. The only time John ever wrote me last game with any semblance of frequency was when he was trying to get me to stab you towards the end game. You and I both know that the most frequent writers get the best results. >Steve's a canny player, and I trust his ability to wiggle out of just >about anything. John, well, he's hurting if he only gets one build. >Otherwise, we have a serious fight on our hands. See above... As for Steve, yeah, I know, I've watched him in FTF action on several occasions (although I've never been in a game with him til now, I know how good he is; mind you, I rank you and him as about even). Next time you and I meet face to face, remind me to tell you a story about CanCon and Steve. These letters will be archived and this is "not for broadcast"... heh heh. Anyway, tty after the results. King Kal
Message from France to England in 'pouchtoo':
Cal, Sorry, swamped again, so I'll keep this short. OK, I'm totally fine with the plan, and I respect your reasoning. I'll do something (WHAT exactly, I'm not sure yet ;) ) non-BEL with BUR, and snag Iberia. Hohn
Message from France to England in 'pouchtoo':
Cal, > Geez, sorry this took so long, but I'm sure YOU can relate to long hours at > work... :) Anyway, it was worth it. Just got a raise and a promotion! By the way, congrats on this! That's awesome! I'm talking to Steve about going to World DipCon in May. Are you planning on going? Hohn
Message from Turkey to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Tsar Jamie, I'm alright with things the way they are. Sultan Steve
Message from Turkey to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Manus, I'm okay, you're okay. Steve
Message from England to France in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as France to England in 'pouchtoo': > >Cal, > >> Geez, sorry this took so long, but I'm sure YOU can relate to long hours at >> work... :) Anyway, it was worth it. Just got a raise and a promotion! > >By the way, congrats on this! That's awesome! > >I'm talking to Steve about going to World DipCon in May. Are you >planning on going? > >Hohn I was planning on going but the schedule I have now may prevent it. I work midnights with Thu/Fri off. But, who knows? Lots can happen between now and then. Cal
Message from Russia to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
>Diplomacy game 'pouchtoo' is waiting for Austria's orders. >Diplomacy game 'pouchtoo' is waiting for Italy's orders. Hmmmm. >My apologies. I would have sworn up and down my orders were in! >They are now. > >Manus Hmmmm. Oh well, we'll soon see! Tsar Jamie
Message from Russia to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
>Diplomacy game 'pouchtoo' is waiting for Austria's orders. >Diplomacy game 'pouchtoo' is waiting for Italy's orders. Hmmmm. >My apologies. I would have sworn up and down my orders were in! >They are now. > >Manus Hmmmm. Oh well, we'll soon see! Tsar Jamie
Message from Russia to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
As long as we've got this extra time.... Are you ordering your A Bul to support me Sev-Rum? Tsar J
Message from Turkey to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Yes, your tsarness. Sultan S
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
FOR YOUR EYES ONLY! You know, I have to say that my experience with FTF'ers show them to be (in general) a very hot-tempered, not-so-nice, I'm right, you're wrong, bunch. This Cooley fellow apparently fits that mold. I don't want to drive any wedges between the communities, because I participate in both, but for my money, we PBEM'ers are the class act of the hobby. Manus
Message from Master to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
You know, if you start a press with 'FOR YOUR EYES ONLY!' it's almost a guarantee that I'll read it. I read through some of the Ghodstoo press yesterday. Incredible how much there is! Rick
Message from Turkey to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Dave, That's all I know about you. Nice intro you got. I'm the guy who = thinks it makes no sense not to start over, but I lost. So far, it would appear that the feared Hohn Cho (F) is off to a fine = start. Cyrille, your predecessor, had some thoughts of taking Rumania, = but apparently expired before they came to fruition. I am looking for = an ally--any ally. I would love to work an A-T and would agree to = (almost) any conditions. I think Russia is trying to straddle the fence = between you and I to maximize his options. Again, I am open to = anything. Steve ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BD4045.D0AF1C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printablesignon tpouchtoo=20 jcalvinpress to aDave,That's all I know about you. = Nice intro=20 you got. I'm the guy who thinks it makes no sense not to start = over, but I=20 lost.So far, it would appear that the = feared Hohn Cho=20 (F) is off to a fine start. Cyrille, your predecessor, had some = thoughts=20 of taking Rumania, but apparently expired before they came to = fruition. I=20 am looking for an ally--any ally. I would love to work an A-T and = would=20 agree to (almost) any conditions. I think Russia is trying to = straddle the=20 fence between you and I to maximize his options. Again, I am open = to=20 anything.Steve------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BD4045.D0AF1C60--
Message from Italy to Master in 'pouchtoo':
> You know, if you start a press with 'FOR YOUR EYES ONLY!' it's almost > a guarantee that I'll read it. > Well, I have seen a picture of Jamie on his Web page, and though he doesn't wear glasses, I still knew that "YOUR EYES" in this case would number four. :-) Personally, she no matta me whether we start over or not. For this reason, I find it hard to believe that the call should be labelled so 100% cut-and-dried. But it's no water off my back (whatever that means). > I read through some of the Ghodstoo press yesterday. Incredible how > much there is! > I shoulda been in that game. This one has little press, and frankly, I am just not into it. Hopefully both of these will change.... Manus
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Thanks for climbing aboard. Assuming we don't restart the game, here's the lowdown on things. I got one (maybe two) messages from Austria before he disappeared, but in that brief contact, we managed to do a lot. We agreed to DMZ Venice, Trieste, and (with Germany) Tyrolia. We also talked Lepanto. I asked if he wanted to do a Key, but he demurred. So I opened with the wonderful "A ROM H" opening. I got bored. From intelligence around the board, it was learned that Germany is going to be in for a rough ride (the steamroller is revving up). So with my Rome army doing little of anything, I wrote to Austria asking permission to go to Venice and then to Tyrolia so that he (now you) and I might either get in on the German feast, if there is to be one, or support a German Munich if we decide that is better. One or the other to slow down the E/F steamroller. I never heard back from Austria, but I went ahead and put my orders in assuming it was okay. So I'm moving Rom-Ven and convoying to Tunis. Turkey is none too happy that I opened Lepanto-like. I've tried to convince him I have no concrete plans (because I don't) but I will bet dollars to navy beans that he'll build F SMY. :-( I am hoping, then, that ROM-VEN might convince him to leave the waters to me for an extra turn or two, but I doubt it will be enough. I'd like, in short, to work with you, and what little view I have of my future has me heading into Venice/Tyrolia (looking anti-Austria to convince Turkey, but all with your full knowledge, and mostly to give my extra army something to do), and trying to get a hold on the Med. FYI, I have the standard DMZ with France, but I suppose if the steamroller gets too much momentum, I may have to be the one to break it. I don't know what you make of all this, but I suppose I will know as soon as you write back. Once again, welcome to the game! Manus
Message from Russia to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
Sultan Steve, 1. Unfortunately, my stupid joke turned out to be obscure. In my most recent broadcast, I was *merely* making fun of the fact that you had just broadcast the same message twice! 2. I personally have no objection to starting anew. It's just that I think it would have to be unanimous among the players to do that, otherwise it looks as though we are depriving those players who had the best starts of their advantages. In an earlier broadcast, I specifically mentioned King Kal, though as a matter of fact I don't think his opening position is above average for England. But some of our observers said that his was the best position, and he may possibly agree. I'm still happy to restart, personally. If everyone else agrees, I won't stand in the way. 3. In case the game does continue in the current position: I'll still commit to playing anti-Austria. Naturally I want to hear what this new guy says, but I don't think promises get cancelled whenever a new player shows up, so I will abide by our earlier agreement. 4. I think I'll say a little something more in a broadcast, to capitalize on the fact (and it is a fact) that some onlookers think that your most recent broadcast shows a rift in T/R relations. If I can encourage this appearance, I think it will make Italy more likely to take Austria as his first target. Let me know what you think of this idea, I won't say more in public until I hear from you again. Tsar J
Message from Turkey to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Tsar Jamie, Actually, I don't REALLY mind continuing the game, but I don't = understand why everyone's so against re-starting. It's not like we've = got a major stake in this thing time-wise. Anyway, I don't know the "new Cyrille". I would like to maintain our = agreement, if that is acceptable to you. I'll understand and won't = (necessarily) get paranoid if you want to see what the other guy offers = first. That's your call. Sultan Steve
Message from Austria to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
Hi Steve, >Dave, > >That's all I know about you. Nice intro you got. I'm the guy who = >thinks it makes no sense not to start over, but I lost. > Well, can't say I know a whole lot about you either (<:. I've seen your name around I know, perhaps in TAP? I've been in the hobby for probably 7 or 8 years now, but I quite playing through the judges 5 years ago when I changed jobs and have been doing postal and FTF only since then. Just to let you know, so you don't think I'm ignoring you, my email is at work and my boss is not sympathetic to playing games during working hours. That means that I tend to send/receive messages in the morning before work starts or in the evenings when it's over. I do check it everyday, but I don't have access on the weekends. This week however, the boss is away, so I should be able to catch up quickly and get things going. >So far, it would appear that the feared Hohn Cho (F) is off to a fine = >start. I know he's a big name on the judges, but as I said, I've been off them for years, so I haven't run into him. Of course I once had a high ranking on the judges myself, so I know how little that means (<:. I did follow ghods in TAP, so that's my sum experience of Hohn Cho. Just enough to know to watch out for him. > Cyrille, your predecessor, had some thoughts of taking Rumania, = >but apparently expired before they came to fruition. I am looking for = >an ally--any ally. I would love to work an A-T and would agree to = >(almost) any conditions. I think Russia is trying to straddle the fence = >between you and I to maximize his options. Again, I am open to = >anything. > Well, given the Russia opening, there does not appear to be anyway I can take Rum, even with your support, so an attack there would seem rather ill advised. I'm not at all adverse to an A/T, even though I did just get reamed in on as Austria in the Diplomacy World demo game, but it's pretty hard to pull off if both Italy and Russia are playing a southern game. What we need to do is to convince either/both of them to make moves on their other fronts. A big, big plus would be if we could get Germany to bounce Russia out of Sweden. That would force him to use his build in STP, and would open up the options for us considerably. We should also both work on getting Italy to head west, playing as much as possible on the Fearsome French reputation. If we really want to do this, an early attack is also best, which would mean my moving to Gal and you moving to Bla and Arm. Are you open to this? The big problem of an A/T is of course that T ends up wrapped around A, leaving him rather vulnerable. Since I'm still picking the blades out of my back from the last time I tried that, I'd want to take a pretty cautious approach as far as my own defense. Having you expand into Russia with armies and towards Italy with fleets would make me rather uncomfortable. How do we work around that and keep things equitable enough that you'll be okay with it? From my perspective, given the strength of your position in an A/T, it's reasonable that your early growth is slower so that I can have enough force to head north and still protect my homeland. What are your ideas on this? Looking forward to a good game! -Dave
Message from Austria to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Hi Manus, Thanks for the rundown. I'd kind of assumed some sort of A/I pact from the opening (<: . I'm definitely in favor of an A/I, particularly if there is a strong E/F forming, even more so given the reputations of those two! The question is really how to maximize our growth so that we are ready for the inevitable French incursion into the Med. Given the openings, I'd expect that we'll see France taking Por and Spa. England could convoy into Belgium without Germany being able to do anything about it, but if I were them, I'd have him go to Holland instead to bounce the German and prevent a build. That means France might even get three builds, although I doubt it's too likely. With that kind of start against Germany, and Russia in the south, you might even see France heading south in 1902, I'd certainly be pushing for it as England. Based on that, I have no problem with you going to Ven, but I think you might need to go to Pie, not Tyr next. Sounds like we probably will not want to do anything to speed the fall of Germany, and if we are going to prop him up, I can probably better spare the army there than you can. Having armies in both Pie and Tyr is a lot stronger for us as well. When you say you have a standard DMZ with France, does that include TYS or not? The problem with Lepanto is that it takes a long time to get Italy a second build, leaving you vulnerable to France, especially with fleets going east. There's something to be said for moving a new fleet to TYS, but if we want to take out Turkey, then you need to be in Ionian and Eas/Aeg. My suggestion for the moment is that you move as intended (armies to Tun and Ven), then build F Nap. I'll take Gre and have to consider whether or not to try for Gal (thoughts on that?). I'll do my best Diplomatically to turn the Turk back towards Russia, and of course you need to do the same. If he comes out into Aegean, we are going to have a hard time of it unless we can get Russia to join us. For next year, a lot will depend on what France builds. You need to apply as much pressure as possible (without annoying him of course (<: ) to get him to not build in Mar, or, if he's getting three to make sure it's an army. If he does build there, then I'd suggest that you move the army to Pie, perhaps even telling him you are doing so and arranging a bounce. If he does come your way we could even consider you taking Trieste for a build, depending of course on what happens with R and T. If there seems to be any hope of working with Russia, then I'm disinclined to take Gal as that would just cement the R/T. Let's see what we can both do to cement the idea of an AIR vs EF set up. Regards, Dave P.S. My email is from work and generally I can only check it in the mornings before we start or in the evenings. This week is an exception as the boss is away. I don't have any access on the weekends, but I do check twice a day during the week. Just didn't want you to think I was ignoring you later on. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Well, I just heard from Dave, and I must say I'm impressed. He speaks long and clear on the possibilities for an A/I, wanting very much to keep Turkey bottled up and to get you (Russia) into an AIR alliance to combat a strong E/F. He warns about the possibility of an early French presence in the Med, and says that he's fine with my upcoming move Rom-Ven (which I told him about). Gotta run, Manus
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
> Thanks for the rundown. I'd kind of assumed some sort of A/I pact from > the opening (<: . > Exciting, wasn't it? :-) > When you say you have a standard DMZ with France, does that include TYS or > not? > It includes a prohibition against my having a fleet in BOTH TYS and Tun at the same time without approval, a similar one against France having fleets in BOTH MAO and Spa/sc at the same time, and it includes a ban on fleet builds in Rome and Marseilles without prior approval. Whew! Sorry so short -- hope to respond to your mail more fully later, but for now, work work work.... Manus
Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
In filling the new Austrian in on my diplomatic situation, I summarized
the DMZ I have with you as below. I want to run it past you because I
admit I inserted a clause in the translation, but it's one that I imagine
you're fine with, and so I'd like to get your approval on it:
Neither France nor Italy shall, without prior consent of the other:
(1) build a fleet in Rome or Marseilles,
(2) move any unit into Piedmont,
(3) move a fleet into the Gulf of Lyon, the Western Mediterranean, or
North Africa,
(4) station a fleet in BOTH the Tyrrhenian Sea and Tunis,
(5) station a fleet in BOTH the Mid-Atlantic and on the south coast
of Spain.
As you can see, I added point 5, which is the French equivalent of point 4.
Just wanted to see if this is okay with you. If so, I would like us to
consider it as part of our agreement.
Manus
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> Hi new guy. > Hi yourself! I strained my memory trying to decide where your name is familiar from but think I've finally got it. I quit playing on the judges about 5 years ago, but one of the last games I played in was a play test of a variant called Juggernaut. I believe you and Tim Snyder co-authored it, or is my memory as faulty as ever? Anyway, a pleasure to be here. > Quick recap: > in the opening, I agreed with Austria that we'd make Turkey our first > target. He (Cyrille) suggested some moves for me, I made them. Then he > stopped talking. > > I'm sure you'll understand my situation: I feel that I have to reassess > everything now, but I certainly don't plan to penalize you for Cyrille's > disappearance. > > Italy appears to be an abject coward, but you'll have to figure that stuff > out for yourself! > I can certainly understand that you do need to reassess. Having said that, I'd like to make my case for staying with Cyrille's plan. While I have not played with most of the people in this game (Cal being the exception), their reputations do preceed them. The moves and the information that I've been getting (quite an outpouring so far!) seems to point towards and E/F forming, do you think this is the case? If it is, then I think that an AIR, at least for the moment is going to be necessary. England is in position to limit Germany to a single build, and France could possibly get three. With my preliminary evaluation of Italy the same as yours (I was going to say "extremely cautious", but just because I was being polite), I think we have to worry about France coming into the Med early on, and probably doing rather well against Italy. Given all that, I think we need to get Turkey out of the way quickly for a number of reasons: 1) So that you are free to build in the north and slow down England/shore up Germany. 2) So that Italy can spare his attention for the west. 3) In the case that Italy proves either spineless or incapable of putting up a good defense, to remove Turkey from the backfield so that I can take out Italy and assume the defense of the Med. In the long run, I like the A/R alliance a lot. It's a little slower to get going in the Med than the A/I, but has the great advantage of those northern fleet builds. If we play a fast offensive game, I think we can beat out an E/F. In the short term, I think we should go with an AIR to take out Turkey and evaluate the threat from E/F. Specifically, I'd suggest that we make the attack on Turkey as hard and fast as possible, with Italy setting up for the Lepanto, my taking Greece this turn, and you pushing south. The best moves in my opinion would be: Russia: Sev - Arm, Rum - Bla, Ukr - Rum Austria: Bud s Ukr - Rum, Alb - Gre, Ser s Alb - Gre That would pretty much guarantee the fall of Turkey rather quickly. > Very best wishes, and hopefully, > Tsar Jamie Well, I hope you're Tsar Jamie as well, or I'm in big trouble (<:. Best regards, Dave P.S. Just in case you're free the weekend of March 7/8, that is the date of the next Diplomatic Incident in Boston. We'd love to have you come. I'm expecting Jim Burgess to be coming up from Providence on Saturday so maybe you could carpool or take the train together. P.P.S. My email access is from work and generally I can only do gaming before or after the work day starts. This week is an exception as the boss is away. I don't have access on the weekends. I do check it twice a day and don't expect any problems in keeping up with things, just didn't want you to think that I suddenly started ignoring you next week! _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
Oops. Just to be pedantic about something that doesn't really need to be, our agreement also forbids moving an army into North Africa. NAf should move out of point 3 and up into point 2. All correct? Manus
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
>Hi yourself! I strained my memory trying to decide where your name is >familiar from but think I've finally got it. I quit playing on the judges >about 5 years ago, but one of the last games I played in was a play test >of a variant called Juggernaut. I believe you and Tim Snyder co-authored >it, or is my memory as faulty as ever? Yeah, that was me! I knew that I knew your name too, but I never would have remembered that it was from Juggernaut. Yes, I do think there is an E/F, not forming but formed. I don't know what to do about it. I'd like to help prop up Germany, but on the other hand I expect to be busy in the South and don't want to have any trouble in the North if I can help it. If I try to help Germany and fail, I'll certainly be next on England's list. If I leave them alone, I think maybe England might decide to use his positional advantage against France next (envisioning French moves into the Med). I agree with you about needing the AIR. I am a little wary of leaving you really big and strong at the end of the opening, but under the circumstances it appears to be the best approach for me. (My thinking is that I would build northern fleets as soon as Turkey has been rendered harmless, and you would push your armies into Germany, or maybe the remnants thereof if Germany succombs to the F/E.) Off hand, I'm a little worried about your suggested move, because I'm a naturally conservative player. I admit that it is by far the best anti-Turkish move, but to be brutally honest, it leaves me very wide open in case you've really decided that you should be on Turkey's side in this fight. Hm. Give me another day or two to mull it over. I *think* I'm with you on this. Tsar J p.s. I think I'll have to pass on the Incident (again!). With three kids, my weekends are kind of busy.
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>Well, I just heard from Dave, and I must say I'm impressed. He speaks >long and clear on the possibilities for an A/I, wanting very much to keep >Turkey bottled up and to get you (Russia) into an AIR alliance to combat >a strong E/F. He warns about the possibility of an early French presence >in the Med, and says that he's fine with my upcoming move Rom-Ven (which I >told him about). Hm, yeah. Listen, if France does plan to occupy the Med next, I'm afraid I think we have to do something about that, no matter which way we decide to align in the South. I mean, either we eliminate Austria, and then you have to face France and you might get pincered by F and T, or we eliminate Turkey, you go fight France, and then I'm up against England and Austria. I don't see any other way. (Unless I could persuade Austria to attack you :)) I hate to do it, but maybe I ought to assist England into Germany, and hope he'll take that as a good reason to stab France soon. That would ease everything up. Or can you think of some other idea? I guess I could prop up Germany and take Norway, then I could hold out in the north with minimal forces and maybe take on either Austria or Turkey myself if you turned west. The other thing to worry about (I know I haven't given you enough yet) is that it does not seem as though you will be able to get a Turkish center any time soon, even if we do go AIR. You'd be stuck at four centers until the end of '03. Yike. That's too vulnerable. If we go with IRT, maybe you could take Greece and flank Trieste. We'd promise Serbia to Turkey, I'd stay at 6 for the year but that's not so bad since I'd have four in the south and nobody threatening me. If you guys took Ser and Gre and you had Tri flanked at the end of '02, I'd probably get Bud or Vie in '03. Yeah, but Turkey isn't going to help you get Greece, that would be stupid of him. To give you the better position after Austria falls. Another thought: maybe I should be working Hohn to prepare an attack on England. My line would be obvious: France can't wait around hoping England will remain friendly, that always ends up badly. Hm. Tough game. Hey, maybe we could start over! Tsar J
Message from Russia to France in 'pouchtoo':
Hohn, I feel that I'm beginning to get myself into a good diplomatic position in the south (knock on wood). Here's this problem I've been worrying about. Suppose that you and King Kal invade Germany, as to all appearances you are about to do. Then either I sit around and let you do it, or I try to help Germany survive, or I actually support Kal into Denmark or something. If Germany is overrun fast, then I'm afraid I face King Kal and a southerner at once, and I don't expect to be strong enough to do that (I might be reasonably large, but not large enough to fight on two fronts when everyone else is fighting on one). But if I support John, then either I succeed, in which case I'm really screwing up your personal game plan by freezing you until some southerner comes for you in the Mediterranean, or I fail, in which case [see above scenario about fighting Cal plus someone in the south]. I hate all of these scenarios. But what's the alternative? I bet you would *like* to get a surprise stab in against Cal in 1903 or so. Because I bet you don't want to see an endgame with England strong, since those are always bad for France. But I bet you don't feel like you'll be able to do it, because you think some Medi-power would take grossly unfair advantage of you. Somehow it seems like our two concerns should be mutually remediable. I can see a number of possibilities. Is there anything that occurs to you? (Needless to say, I may be deceiving myself, it's quite possible I'm about to feel the knife myself and won't be around to work with you in '04. Doesn't seem like that's true, but, you know how it is.) Tsar J
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> Yeah, that was me! > I knew that I knew your name too, but I never would have remembered that it > was from Juggernaut. > Well, I remember it because I got to play the Juggernaut. As I remember, I had I/R and I had a lot of fun with the game because I formed an A/I vs an R/G and then gave Russia the solo. Even in the EOG no one guessed that R had been part of the Juggernaut. Did you keep the variant going? Has it been played much? > Yes, I do think there is an E/F, not forming but formed. > Thanks for the confirmation. > I don't know what to do about it. I'd like to help prop up Germany, but on > the other hand I expect to be busy in the South and don't want to have any > trouble in the North if I can help it. If I try to help Germany and fail, > I'll certainly be next on England's list. If I leave them alone, I think > maybe England might decide to use his positional advantage against France > next (envisioning French moves into the Med). > That would obviously be your call. If you think you can influence it that way, then holding off until just after the stab would be a good move. Of course, in an AR, you can't stay down south too long, makes the natives restless (<:. > I agree with you about needing the AIR. > I am a little wary of leaving you really big and strong at the end of the > opening, but under the circumstances it appears to be the best approach for > me. (My thinking is that I would build northern fleets as soon as Turkey > has been rendered harmless, and you would push your armies into Germany, or > maybe the remnants thereof if Germany succombs to the F/E.) > > Off hand, I'm a little worried about your suggested move, because I'm a > naturally conservative player. I admit that it is by far the best > anti-Turkish move, but to be brutally honest, it leaves me very wide open > in case you've really decided that you should be on Turkey's side in this > fight. Hm. > As I saw it, you really only had two good choices in the south. The first is to have Sev and Ukr support Rum, the only way to protect it in the face of an A/T, and then T gets into Bla and Arm anyway if there is an A/T (the last time I tried one, in the Diplomacy World demo game, I got a broadsword in the back from my Turkish ally), or the all out attack. A single support on Rum isn't worth anything as it can be overwhelmed. To let you know up front, when I've formed an alliance I have a tendency to think in terms of the moves that will work best for the alliance as a whole. That means that I sometimes forget to consider how the moves might look to my ally in reference to our relative positions. If my suggestions look like I'm trying to set you up, please point it out rather than assuming the worst. I don't have a problem with taking a slower approach if necessary, I just tend to think in a rapidly offensive style because I've found it works quite well. Should you not be comfortable with the wide open attack on Turkey, I'd still like very much to work with you. I'm equally willing to say that you need not tell me how you want to do it. In that case though I would prefer not to use Bud to support Ukr to Rum as I would not want to tip my hand to Turkey if you opted for the hold. That makes it a little more risky, but I don't see Turkey opting to bounce you for Rum without a commitment from me. Regards, Beirmeister Dave > p.s. I think I'll have to pass on the Incident (again!). With three kids, > my weekends are kind of busy. > I know what you mean. I have two myself (4 & 2) which is why I host my own little con rather than going to one. This way I can get away with only one night out and usually arrange for the in-laws to drop in while I'm gone. There's no carry over, so if the mood strikes, feel free to come by either day. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message from Austria to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
Greetings! First the brief intro. I used to play on the judges about 5 years ago, but dropped out due to a job change and easy email access. Since then I've been playing actively postally, and running a local con in Boston twice a year to get my FTF fix. The one consistent thing that I've been hearing in this game already is that you are facing an E/F that is gunning for you. Don't know what that is worth as I'm the newcomer and people tell me all kinds of things about everyone else (<:. Anyway, I wanted you to know that as long as that is the case you certainly don't need to worry about any pressure from the south, and, in fact, if I can resolve things quickly enough down here I might be able to lend an army for support should you desire it. Not much else to say now except hi, and I'm looking forward to a good game. Regards, Dave P.S. I access my email now from work and can only do that before or after the working day, and not all on the weekends. I do check it twice a day, so I don't expect this to be a problem, just letting you know that I'm not ignoring you if you don't get a quick response. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message from Austria to England in 'pouchtoo':
Hello Cal! Greetings once again. Due to lamentable circumstances we didn't get to do much in our Black Hole game in Costaguana. I'm looking forward to making up for that here. There's not much that Austria and England can do together in the early years, and that often leads to them being locked into opposing alliances and never even considering how well they can work together in the mid-game. I'd like to avoid that and keep the lines open with you. Our distance can make us very good allies as the chances of a stab are greatly reduced. However the opening moves shake out, we should consider how joint action might work for us in a few years, particularly should Italy and France lock horns in the Med. Looking forward to the game, -Dave _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message from Austria to France in 'pouchtoo':
Vive le Empereur! (Or some such, my high school french is rather rusty.) I don't think we've ever played together as I can't make it to the big cons (small children don't leave much time for gaming). I used to play a lot on the judges but dropped out about 5 years ago due to loss of easy email. Since then I've been playing a lot postally and organizing a small local con in Boston to get my face to face fix. While an A/F is not that common an alliance, I have found that it can work reasonably well as long as France does not make too large a commitment into the Med. Were this still Winter 01 I'd be strongly advocating that an F/G vs E to help position us for the possibility, but it appears to be too late for that. However, simultaneous attacks on E and I in a few years could still lead to a very powerfull alliance, and I don't want to rule that out. So, let's keep the lines open and see where the first few years lead us. Best regards, Dave _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message from Germany to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Welcome to the game, and thanks for taking over the position. I am not sure E/F are solidly united. It could be that F is more inclined that way now. He thinks I violated my word on the first turn. I tried to explain, but who knows if he accepted? In any case, I appreciate your offer of help. I would be very happy to see Austria on my side in this one. John
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
On the JUGGERNAUT variant: I think there were only two games played, and in both the Juggernaut was Russia and someone else. >To let you know up front, when I've formed an alliance >I have a tendency to think in terms of the moves that >will work best for the alliance as a whole. That >means that I sometimes forget to consider how the moves >might look to my ally in reference to our relative >positions. If my suggestions look like >I'm trying to set you up, please point it out rather than >assuming the worst. I had that problem in Ghodstoo. As England, I allied with Pitt Crandelmeier, playing Germany, and we invaded France early and hard. I convoyed to Belgium. That made him very nervous, so he stabbed me. I remember being very disappointed that he hadn't instead told me, "I don't like your being in Belgium, give it to me instead." I would have. (I think. :-)) >I don't have a problem with taking a slower approach >if necessary, I just tend to think in a rapidly >offensive style because I've found it works quite well. Yeah. Actually, I want to be very careful not to be the 'leader' in this particular game. Always a problem with Russia, and especially so in this game I expect. But I don't mind subduing Turkey very early if we can manage it. >Should you not be comfortable with the wide open >attack on Turkey, I'd still like very much to work >with you. I'm equally willing to say that >you need not tell me how you want to do it. >In that case though I would prefer not to use >Bud to support Ukr to Rum as I would not want to tip my >hand to Turkey if you opted for the hold. That makes it >a little more risky, but I don't see Turkey opting to >bounce you for Rum without a commitment from me. Aha. Yes, good. That's fine. Ok, either I will go with your plan, or I will let you know that I want to be a little more conservative and that you can use A Bud for whatever you want. Tsar J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Well, I am personally not convinced that there ism uch danger of an entry by France into the Med anytime soon, but the point is well taken that if France and England are too tight (tighter than I can make myself with France) then we will have a problem, and I'm glad to know you're on my side if this happens. The way I see it, we choose between Austria and Turkey, and I grow to be as friendly with France as possible in the meantime, while you do the same with England. Then, as you say, perhaps we help our respective partners against each other, perhaps even feigning a war between you and I. All too far in the future to say anything for sure, but my policy for now will be to cultivate French friendship and subtly try to make sure that after Germany is dispatched, his next target should be England (suggesting, eventually, the possibility of contacting you, if he doesn't bring it up first). > The other thing to worry about (I know I haven't given you enough yet) is > that it does not seem as though you will be able to get a Turkish center > any time soon, even if we do go AIR. You'd be stuck at four centers until > the end of '03. Yike. That's too vulnerable. > This is definitely possible (to be left without a build for a while). As long as my alliances are firm, I'm actually okay with that. My philosophy as Italy is three-fold -- patience, patience, patience. Turkey has to break out to succeed, but Italy has to sit back and wait for slow growth. > If we go with IRT, maybe you > could take Greece and flank Trieste. We'd promise Serbia to Turkey, I'd > stay at 6 for the year but that's not so bad since I'd have four in the > south and nobody threatening me. If you guys took Ser and Gre and you had > Tri flanked at the end of '02, I'd probably get Bud or Vie in '03. Yeah, > but Turkey isn't going to help you get Greece, that would be stupid of him. > To give you the better position after Austria falls. > Understood. My only chance for growth anytime soon is probably Trieste. Dave has actually offered to loan it to me if I need it to build western (I assume this offer is void if I show any anti-Austrian moves :-). Anyway, flanking it may not even be necessary. It seems perhaps my fate in this game is to always have a unit with nothing to do, so perhaps it will indeed be this way. > Another thought: maybe I should be working Hohn to prepare an attack on > England. My line would be obvious: France can't wait around hoping England > will remain friendly, that always ends up badly. Hm. > As indicated, E/F partnership is fine as long as it doesn't last. I will also point out repeatedly the strong terms of the DMZ Hohn and I have set up, and how good it has been to us, and how England is so scary, etc., etc. > Tough game. > Hey, maybe we could start over! > LOL! Manus
Message from England to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Austria to England in 'pouchtoo': > > >Hello Cal! Hi David! Nice to hear something from Austria besides silence! ;) >Greetings once again. Due to lamentable circumstances we didn't get to >do much in our Black Hole game in Costaguana. I'm looking forward to >making up for that here. Sounds good to me. >There's not much that Austria and England can do together in the early >years, and that often leads to them being locked into opposing alliances >and never even considering how well they can work together in the mid-game. >I'd like to avoid that and keep the lines open with you. Our distance can >make us very good allies as the chances of a stab are greatly reduced. >However the opening moves shake out, we should consider how joint action >might work for us in a few years, particularly should Italy and France >lock horns in the Med. I'm always open to the unexpected alliances and I especially love looking to the long term. We'll keep in touch and see what develops. I'll give you a game summary in a couple of days. Better you should have a chance to gather your own impressions of what's going on. Feel free to ask any questions. I also like cross-board info exchanges. Talk to you soon. King Kal
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
So, which way are you leaning? Here's my basic feeling. I really like the idea of being rid of Turkey forever. On the other hand, I am not thrilled at having a fairly large Austria with a gigantic army sitting on my flank. That's why I can't quite decide. On the bigger picture: what do you think about the idea of my building A Stp in the winter and actually trying to take Norway? The idea is that just my two or three units plus Germany's can stand off an E/F combination. So maybe France gets frustrated and flips over to the Witch-elimination approach. In the mean time, I have made a loyal friend of John. Of course, the downside is that I have a very angry England and I don't know quite what he'd do. And maybe I'm mistaken, maybe G/R can't really hold off a concerted E/F. Tsar J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> So, which way are you leaning? > Sadly, but not surprisingly, I guess I'm standing straight up. :-( > Here's my basic feeling. I really like the idea of being rid of Turkey > forever. > As do I. We descendants of Columbus want the waters down here to smell of garlic. > On the other hand, I am not thrilled at having a fairly large > Austria with a gigantic army sitting on my flank. That's why I can't quite > decide. > I'm with you. One thing to keep in mind is that Austria has offered me Trieste for the asking. Perhaps I can "ask" at a time that turns out to be inopportune for him (assuming we do Turkey first). Trouble is, even though we've played only a single move, and had only but little in the way of press, I feel like whichever way we go (Austria or Turkey) will see me betraying a trust, something I usually don't do right off the bat. I haven't promised not to Lepanto, but I've sure been talking friendly. As for Austria, we have a good and already honored DMZ, which could extends to a center-loaning alliance. > On the bigger picture: what do you think about the idea of my building A > Stp in the winter and actually trying to take Norway? The idea is that just > my two or three units plus Germany's can stand off an E/F combination. So > maybe France gets frustrated and flips over to the Witch-elimination > approach. In the mean time, I have made a loyal friend of John. > I wouldn't do this without letting France know beforehand, subtly feeling him out for how much help he might be if England had troubles or something. I don't want a run for Scandinavia to be seen as an attack on E/F, when it is just an attack on E. > Of course, the downside is that I have a very angry England and I don't > know quite what he'd do. And maybe I'm mistaken, maybe G/R can't really > hold off a concerted E/F. > Well, here's a possibility. Talk long and hard with England about the following type of thing. You want in on the German party that he and France seem to be having, but you want to cull German favor and surprise him. Offer to pass German intelligence to E/F. So you tell him that you would like to build A StP and attack Norway in SPRING 1902 (NOT costing him a center), thus ensuring that Germany will tell you his most intimate secrets. Then, in the Fall, when Germany expects England to attack Norway to take it back, you say that your true desire is a surprise convoy Nor-Den using his North Sea fleet and your support from Sweden. As for what you TRULY do that Fall, you (and Germany?) can decide. Just an idea. I guess with the pace of the game we have time to try these kind of things. And a tres chic tactic for a demo game, anyway. Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>Trouble is, even though we've played only a single move, and had only >but little in the way of press, I feel like whichever way we go (Austria >or Turkey) will see me betraying a trust, something I usually don't do >right off the bat. I'm in a similar situation. I even have a fairly 'neutral' move available, but if I do that one I'm afraid they'll *both* see me as betraying a trust! And that's the one thing we really don't want. On the other hand, there is a pretty good chance I could get away with it... on the other hand (I have three), what's the point, really? I'm certainly going to betray one of them, why not in '01? Ugh. >I wouldn't do this without letting France know beforehand, subtly feeling >him out for how much help he might be if England had troubles or something. >I don't want a run for Scandinavia to be seen as an attack on E/F, when it >is just an attack on E. Hm. Yeah, but he'd tell Cal, and then Cal would defend Norway. >Well, here's a possibility. Talk long and hard with England about the >following type of thing. You want in on the German party that he and >France seem to be having, but you want to cull German favor and surprise >him. Offer to pass German intelligence to E/F. So you tell him that you >would like to build A StP and attack Norway in SPRING 1902 (NOT costing him >a center), thus ensuring that Germany will tell you his most intimate >secrets. Then, in the Fall, when Germany expects England to attack Norway >to take it back, you say that your true desire is a surprise convoy Nor-Den >using his North Sea fleet and your support from Sweden. Holy cow. I don't think Cal is sufficiently credulous for that kind of thing. I see Manus as sort of semi-committing to the attack on Germany, but quite opportunistic enough to jump on England if it looks like he's got a good chance to come out ahead. The more obvious approach, slurping up a German center, has a couple of drawbacks. First, it would leave England positioned to start convoying into my territory, and not terribly well positioned to take on France (though really England is practically always well positioned to take on France, I guess). Second, of all the northerners I much prefer John as an ally. Well, I'll figure that part out. So how are we going to decide whether it's AIR or TIR? I think all the info is in now. Shall we each consult our innermost heart and write down our answers on slips of paper then exchange them? Shall we flip a coin and see whether we are crestfallen when it comes up heads? Tsar J
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Hi new guy. Quick recap: in the opening, I agreed with Austria that we'd make Turkey our first target. He (Cyrille) suggested some moves for me, I made them. Then he stopped talking. I'm sure you'll understand my situation: I feel that I have to reassess everything now, but I certainly don't plan to penalize you for Cyrille's disappearance. Italy appears to be an abject coward, but you'll have to figure that stuff out for yourself! Very best wishes, and hopefully, Tsar Jamie
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>> Is that advice about the game, or about my personal life? >> >I doubt that you need either. :-) I was gonna say that. :) Listen, if Steve really will fly off the handle, I'm delighted. If he suddenly turns from a fearsome opponent into a third-rate "I'm gonna get you no matter what I do" player, I'm pretty confident that that would be an advantage. Nothing so comfortable as an entirely predictable opponent. But I personally think he's putting on a show. (For whom? I don't know.) I've written to Dave, too. We'll have to see what develops. I'm inclined to stick with the anti-A program, myself. We've got Steve kind of stuck now, and I'd like to force him to carry through with this plan that is pretty obviously not to his advantage. But let's see what Dave says. -J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> First of all, who is Dave? Do you know? > Not a clue. I've already sent him a message, though, giving him the rundown on things (mentioning only pro-Austrian tendencies in myself, of course). > Second,