Movement

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Italy says you and he were discussing a plan whereby France supports
>Italy to Marseilles, dislodging my army to Spain or somewhere.
>
>Did Italy discuss this with you?

Yep!  He's being straight for once, eh?  :)

I told him the plan had some merit, but only in the fact that it would take
Hohn down faster.  I also told him that it was completely YOUR call as you
were the one risking a build if, for some reason, you couldn't retreat (or
move) to Spain.  I still like the original set of moves I sent you the other
day (I don't think you've replied to that yet??), but if you see any merit
in his plan, we can talk about it.  Just as an opinion, I'd be pretty wary
of what he is suggesting, but I want to hear your comments.

King Kal

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

In retrospect, I think maybe Boh would have been better. But this should be
ok. I have a plan now, I think.

If you knock me out of Gal, I can retreat to Boh. This looks reasonable,
since I'm then threatening you; and I'll next to Munich, and you'll have an
excellent excuse to go to Tyrolia.

I'll come up with specific moves later, but I think I'll probably defend
Rum heavily, not bothering to use my F Bla to support Arm-Ank, since either
Italy does vacate and I don't need support, or he supports Turkey and my
support doesn't help. So I won't defend Gal, and you 'guess right' and
eject me therefrom.

Does that sound like a good basic plan?

Tsar J

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

Your plan sounds better to me than Italy's. But I was thinking along
these lines:

a bur - gas
a mar s a bur - gas
a mun s a bel - bur (?)
f den - swe
a kie - ber

You could hit Brest, or take a shot at the guessing game for
Spain/Portugal. My attack on Gascony would ensure that Italy's move to
Marseilles fails. It would also cut support for Brest, so if you want to
cut Picardy, you have a somewhat better chance at Brest.

You know, if I order mar-gas and bur-par, you can take Brest for sure
with eng s mid - bre.

If we can dissuade Italy from accepting France's support into
Marseilles, we'd pick up two centers. Possibly, if Italy does dislodge
me, I could take Spain, although I think it's likely Hohn will cover
with Portugal.

I do hope I can pick up a center this turn. Things are getting stormy to
the east. The Tsar says he wants to patch things up with Austria, too.

Anyway, let's talk through all the possibilities. Things are not as
obvious this turn.

The Kaiser

Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Curses.

For what it's worth, I doubt that he's got his eye on Berlin. But I *hope*
he has!

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>
> In retrospect, I think maybe Boh would have been better. But this should be
> ok. I have a plan now, I think.
>
> If you knock me out of Gal, I can retreat to Boh. This looks reasonable,
> since I'm then threatening you; and I'll next to Munich, and you'll have an
> excellent excuse to go to Tyrolia.
>

Yes, I had considered this, specifically that you would have to retreat
to Boh, whereas if I went to Boh, then you would retreat to Sil.  What
decided me on the move to Sil was your comment about Germany going to Tyr.
That would really be a problem, and I don't want him to even consider it.

> I'll come up with specific moves later, but I think I'll probably defend
> Rum heavily, not bothering to use my F Bla to support Arm-Ank, since either
> Italy does vacate and I don't need support, or he supports Turkey and my
> support doesn't help. So I won't defend Gal, and you 'guess right' and
> eject me therefrom.
>
This was exactly my thinking.  You face 3 units touching Rum, which means
you need to use the two units that can't be attacked to support it (Bla
and Ukr).  What I'm trying to decide is where I should attack from.  If
I come in from Sil, then my defense is good, but I lose the position of
Sil.  If I come in from Vie or Bud, then when you retreat to Boh I have
the problem of how to "defend" tri and vie, although, if we are ready
to come out into the open versus Germany at that time, maybe we no
longer need to keep up the pretense?

Kaiser D

Message from Germany to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

I am not ignoring you, just talking this over with England. I want to
explore all the options before deciding on a course of action.

Thanks for contacting me about this, though.

The Kaiser

Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

> I am not ignoring you, just talking this over with England.
>
Not to worry --  I didn't think you were.

> I want to explore all the options before deciding on a course of action.
>
Explore away.  Let me know when any decision is reached.

> Thanks for contacting me about this, though.
>
My pleasure.  :-)

Manus

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

>This was exactly my thinking.  You face 3 units touching Rum, which means
>you need to use the two units that can't be attacked to support it (Bla
>and Ukr).

Right, although I could order Gal-Bud. That would be plausible; you
probably wouldn't attack Rum from Bud. Anyway, as a matter of fact you
'have decided' just to take Galicia back.

>What I'm trying to decide is where I should attack from.  If
>I come in from Sil, then my defense is good, but I lose the position of
>Sil.  If I come in from Vie or Bud, then when you retreat to Boh I have
>the problem of how to "defend" tri and vie, although, if we are ready
>to come out into the open versus Germany at that time, maybe we no
>longer need to keep up the pretense?

That's what I was thinking, I guess. That you could stay in Sil, then when
I retreat to Boh it looks like you have to defend, but then in S04 we
unveil the True Plan so the pretense is no longer necessary.

I don't know how England will feel about this, since he may well still have
no French centers... but I expect I'll be feeling impatient by then. :-)

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> I don't know how England will feel about this, since he may well still have
> no French centers... but I expect I'll be feeling impatient by then. :-)
>

I think I've used up about 5 games worth of my quota of restraint so far,
my knife arm is getting itch (<:.

The question we'll have to decide is, do we take Italy out of Turkey at
the same time?  We can't necessarily expect any builds from Germany in
the first year of the attack, and it would be awfully nice to see you
put a fleet in Stp, even if it is in the south coast.

Kaiser D

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

>The question we'll have to decide is, do we take Italy out of Turkey at
>the same time?  We can't necessarily expect any builds from Germany in
>the first year of the attack, and it would be awfully nice to see you
>put a fleet in Stp, even if it is in the south coast.

Hm, yes, true.

Well, I personally would like to do it that way, stab all at once. But I
would also like to see England stay on our side, and so I think maybe it
depends on whether England has gotten his French center yet. Of course,
even if he doesn't get it this coming season, it's quite possible that he
would be assured of getting one next season, since he'd presumably get some
German help in S04.

It might also depend on just how easy it's going to be to take Italy out of
Turkey. If he leaves both units there, we can't do it. Hm, unless you added
your F Gre to the picture, then we could do it easily. Yeah, that would
work nicely. I'd support you into Con, you'd also order Gre-Aeg, and the F
Con would be smushed. Then you'd support me into Smy, or better I'd support
you into Smy and do Bla-Con, and you'd go Aeg-Ion. It would be better,
though, if Italy left only the army. Then you could go straight for Ion and
your attack would be considerably better. So to some extent it does depend
on how Italy is positioned.

But you're right, I've been trying to be very careful not to grow too fast,
but geez, I'm RUSSIA, not goddam Italy, I really ought to have more than
seven centers by the end of 1904!

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>
> Well, I personally would like to do it that way, stab all at once. But I
> would also like to see England stay on our side, and so I think maybe it
> depends on whether England has gotten his French center yet. Of course,
> even if he doesn't get it this coming season, it's quite possible that he
> would be assured of getting one next season, since he'd presumably get some
> German help in S04.
>
I've been doing what I can to convince Italy that he and France should make
an all out effort to regain Mar, even at the cost of losing a center to
England instead.  That would be the optimal solution as far as I can see,
Germany losing Mar back to France, but England taking Bre or Por or Spa.

> It might also depend on just how easy it's going to be to take Italy out of
> Turkey. If he leaves both units there, we can't do it. Hm, unless you added
> your F Gre to the picture, then we could do it easily. Yeah, that would
> work nicely. I'd support you into Con, you'd also order Gre-Aeg, and the F
> Con would be smushed. Then you'd support me into Smy, or better I'd support
> you into Smy and do Bla-Con, and you'd go Aeg-Ion. It would be better,
> though, if Italy left only the army. Then you could go straight for Ion and
> your attack would be considerably better. So to some extent it does depend
> on how Italy is positioned.
>
Yes, I was figureing that we would need to involve my fleet.  Actually, I
think we are better off if his fleet stays there.  If he tries to move it
out, then it will be in Aegean if I let it go there.  That puts it in a
position to attack 3 of our centers or support Smy.  On the other hand,
if I move Gre - Aeg, then the fleet is destroyed.  This means that we
can easily take out the army with only two units in the fall, and my fleet,
whether from Gre or Aeg, can move to Ion.  Since we should also be able to
take Ven, that would reduce Italy by 3 centers.  Even if England has not
gotten a lot of French centers, we may be able to convince him to grab a
German one just to keep from being left behind.

> But you're right, I've been trying to be very careful not to grow too fast,
> but geez, I'm RUSSIA, not goddam Italy, I really ought to have more than
> seven centers by the end of 1904!
>
That's the spirit! (<:  Actually, I think your policy of restraint has
probably been a good one, but now that France is starting to crumble it
is time to make a move.

Kaiser D

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

>I've been doing what I can to convince Italy that he and France should make
>an all out effort to regain Mar, even at the cost of losing a center to
>England instead.  That would be the optimal solution as far as I can see,
>Germany losing Mar back to France, but England taking Bre or Por or Spa.

Yes, well, good luck with that, but my understanding is that France
strongly prefers to lose centers to Germany instead of England. I'm not
sure why. It might just be that he had to pick one of his enemies and say,
"If you keep attacking I'll make sure the other guy gets most of the goods."

Good point about that Italian fleet. Better to squish it than have it
hanging around in Aeg.

So if Manus asks me, I'll say that it's probably just as well that he keep
the fleet there, knowing how greedy you are.

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Yes, well, good luck with that, but my understanding is that France
> strongly prefers to lose centers to Germany instead of England. I'm not
> sure why. It might just be that he had to pick one of his enemies and say,
> "If you keep attacking I'll make sure the other guy gets most of the goods."
>
Well, my reasoning is that he's already lost a center to Germany, but England
doesn't have one yet.  If he retakes Mar, there is a chance to out guess
England.  If he lets Mar go, then he's guaranteed to be down at least one.
Don't know how successfull it's being, but it sounds good (<:

> Good point about that Italian fleet. Better to squish it than have it
> hanging around in Aeg.
>
> So if Manus asks me, I'll say that it's probably just as well that he keep
> the fleet there, knowing how greedy you are.
>
Why thank you (<:.

Kaiser D

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

Nothing from Germany yet except for a "not ignoring you" message.
I'll relay whatever I get from him as soon as I get it from him....

Manus

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

I was looking over the board last night. I think we want to ensure that
France loses at least one unit. France's best defense against your
attack on Brest is por s bre - mid. This negates all the cuts we can
throw at him, leaving a stand-off with your eng s mid-bre.

In light of that, I think we should go with my suggestion, mar s bur -
gas. If Italy accepts France's support into Marseilles, my move cuts
French support while Italy's cuts mine, and I own Marseilles. Of course,
if Gascony does anything else, I still own the center. The only way I
lose it is if Italy supports gas-mar.

I was thinking you might attack Picardy with eng s bel-pic, perhaps
destroying France's fleet. Then allow France to dislodge F Mid. If you
order f mid - por, either you have a shot at retreating to an open
center or taking Portugal if he covers Spain with the fleet. Also, this
would guard against Italy supporting gas-mar, and France ordering
por-spa to ensure I don't retreat there. You would move into Portugal,
so he still loses a center.

You would also have to hold F Iri and F NAO rather than order a
supported move to Mid, or else you'd have a beleaguered unit and no
dislodgement.

If everything went our way, we could end up with Marseilles and either
Spain or Portugal. If not, we get at least one.

Your thoughts?

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Sorry if I'm a bit abrupt here, but it's my day to run on almost zero
sleep...

I like your plan and will go along with everything you say.  I'll also drop
Italy a line and ask him to hold off on attacking Marseilles.  We'll see how
he reacts to that - it should be interesting.

Drowsily

King Kal

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>I was looking over the board last night. I think we want to ensure that
>France loses at least one unit. France's best defense against your
>attack on Brest is por s bre - mid. This negates all the cuts we can
>throw at him, leaving a stand-off with your eng s mid-bre.
>
>In light of that, I think we should go with my suggestion, mar s bur -
>gas. If Italy accepts France's support into Marseilles, my move cuts
>French support while Italy's cuts mine, and I own Marseilles. Of course,
>if Gascony does anything else, I still own the center. The only way I
>lose it is if Italy supports gas-mar.
>
>I was thinking you might attack Picardy with eng s bel-pic, perhaps
>destroying France's fleet. Then allow France to dislodge F Mid. If you
>order f mid - por, either you have a shot at retreating to an open
>center or taking Portugal if he covers Spain with the fleet. Also, this
>would guard against Italy supporting gas-mar, and France ordering
>por-spa to ensure I don't retreat there. You would move into Portugal,
>so he still loses a center.
>
>You would also have to hold F Iri and F NAO rather than order a
>supported move to Mid, or else you'd have a beleaguered unit and no
>dislodgement.
>
>If everything went our way, we could end up with Marseilles and either
>Spain or Portugal. If not, we get at least one.
>
>Your thoughts?

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

I have to keep this short as this is my day to go on very little sleep.

I've run over the tactics with Germany re your moving to Marseilles and we
decided we'd like you to hold off for this turn.  I believe John recognizes
that Marseilles is yours in the long run, but we both want to make sure Hohn
goes down a centre this year.  Perhaps, if you think Hohn is going to
support you to Mars, you could order a support for HIM and claim a mixup?
Hopefully, it may not matter what you claim as he won't be strong enough to
do anything about it.

Again, please don't move to Marseilles THIS turn. Once Hohn loses the
centre, we'll make sure we come to a fair divvying up of his centres.

Kordially,

King Kal

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

Gotcha.  Will you be popping Gas, then, as originally planned?  Or will
you be wanting to let him choose which unit to pull off after the loss
of Marseilles?

Manus

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

Quickly:  heard from Cal.  They do NOT want me to hit Mar this turn.
Wrote back to see if that means they plan to hit and destroy Gas or
what.  Will pass to you the info I get when I get it.

Hopefully we'll get enough intelligence to come up with a successful
counter.

Manus

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

Yes, ask Italy to hold off. His response will be interesting. Part of my
thinking is to move such that what we tell him won't matter. I could see
him offering cooperation just to have a notion what our plans are.

I've sent the new orders in.

Hope you get some sleep.

The Kaiser

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Hi.

I don't expect to have much time tomorrow (Thursday), so I'll propose some
moves now.

I was seriously thinking about convoying my A Arm - Rum, sending Rum-Ukr,
Ukr-War, and letting Gal retreat to Boh. Because if Italy does what he
says, I don't actually need to move my army into Ank, since I currently own
it!

But on second thought, it wouldn't be so good if I had no army in Turkey.
And putting an army in Ukr is only a small advantage. So I won't do that.

I'll support myself to hold in Rum and order Gal-Bud; you support Bud and
have A Bud support Vie (or Sil? -- I leave that to you, but please do not
order Sil-War!) to Gal.

You can order Bul-Rum if you like. I think you probably shouldn't order
Gre-Aeg, though. That would spook Italy, he'd build F Nap and order it to
Ionian.

Don't get too bored, now. I have a feeling we'll get to do something more
fun next year.

Tsar J
p.s. I don't think I've heard a word from anyone since Monday, and nothing
at all from Germany since the movement phase was processed.

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

So, you will order:

CON S ANK - SMY
ANK - SMY

ok? I mean, you won't just decide to do something more fun that's "just as
good", will you? :-)

Good luck with your western cruise,

Tsar J

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

King Kal,

It would be cool if you just took Holland, to even things up between you
and Germany. But I guess you're not going to do that, huh? :-)

I'm expecting that there will be some sort of attack on Germany in 1904. So
I think this is the time for me to move my army to Stp. If you do manage to
get a build (I understand Austria is trying to arrange some funny business
between Italy and France that might increase your chances, and of course
Mar S MAO-Spa might conceivably work), then you'd have an excellent excuse
for building on your east coast and moving into Nth. And then we could take
Denmark in F1904, or I could just do Swe-Bal, Fin-Swe and stick a couple of
armies into Germany.

In some ways it would be better to wait, but it appears that we are about
to see a new German unit, and I really don't want to wait until he gets yet
another one!


Tsar J

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
> King Kal,
>

> It would be cool if you just took Holland, to even things up between you
> and Germany. But I guess you're not going to do that, huh? :-)

Not when it might give Hohn a shot at Belgium... ;)

> I'm expecting that there will be some sort of attack on Germany in 1904. So
> I think this is the time for me to move my army to Stp. If you do manage to
> get a build (I understand Austria is trying to arrange some funny business
> between Italy and France that might increase your chances, and of course
> Mar S MAO-Spa might conceivably work), then you'd have an excellent excuse
> for building on your east coast and moving into Nth. And then we could take
> Denmark in F1904, or I could just do Swe-Bal, Fin-Swe and stick a couple of
> armies into Germany.

Unfortunately, the funny business Manus is trying to arrange is more
likely to get HIM a build than anyone else.  I'd frankly rather have
Germany get the build than Italy for one simple reason:  I can REACH
Germany to take it off him.  Once Manus has it, it won't be easy for you
or I to get it off him.  We'll have to depend on Austria to hit him.

Anyway, I THINK I have a shot at a centre this turn, but we'll see
how it develops.  That's all I'll really need to be able to start thinking
about the German campaign (although I'll probably wait for a second
build).

> In some ways it would be better to wait, but it appears that we are about
> to see a new German unit, and I really don't want to wait until he gets yet
> another one!

Yeah, I'll second THAT emotion...

Kordially,

King Kal

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Gotcha.  Will you be popping Gas, then, as originally planned?  Or will
>you be wanting to let him choose which unit to pull off after the loss
>of Marseilles?


Gonna try for Gas, just for the positional advantage it would give.

King Kal

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Yes, ask Italy to hold off. His response will be interesting. Part of my
>thinking is to move such that what we tell him won't matter. I could see
>him offering cooperation just to have a notion what our plans are.
>
>I've sent the new orders in.
>
>Hope you get some sleep.


Didn't get enough before going back to work, but what they?  I'm home now
and I don't have to go back to work until tomorrow morning.  Delicious!

Italy said he has no problem with backing off on Marseilles, although he did
coyly inquiry as to what my tactics WOULD be.  I told him the truth, but in
a very ambiguous manner which shouldn't benefit him or Hohn should they
choose to try and mess us up.

My orders are in.

King Kal

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> I was seriously thinking about convoying my A Arm - Rum, sending Rum-Ukr,
> Ukr-War, and letting Gal retreat to Boh. Because if Italy does what he
> says, I don't actually need to move my army into Ank, since I currently own
> it!
>
> But on second thought, it wouldn't be so good if I had no army in Turkey.
> And putting an army in Ukr is only a small advantage. So I won't do that.
>
I think the second thought is correct.

> I'll support myself to hold in Rum and order Gal-Bud; you support Bud and
> have A Bud support Vie (or Sil? -- I leave that to you, but please do not
> order Sil-War!) to Gal.
>
Okay.  You should of course order Mos - War.

> You can order Bul-Rum if you like. I think you probably shouldn't order
> Gre-Aeg, though. That would spook Italy, he'd build F Nap and order it to
> Ionian.
>
Agreed

> Don't get too bored, now. I have a feeling we'll get to do something more
> fun next year.
>
Sounds good.

> Tsar J
> p.s. I don't think I've heard a word from anyone since Monday, and nothing
> at all from Germany since the movement phase was processed.
>
Me either.

Kaiser D

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

>Okay.  You should of course order Mos - War.

Well, either that or Mos-Stp.

Leave that to me, ok? I'm gently testing the water with England. If I go to
Stp and England gets a build, it works out very nicely, because he'd have
an excellent excuse to build on his east coast and move the new fleet to
Nth. If he can do that and also maintain surprise against Germany, he'll
almost certainly stab, since he'll have Hol or Den to snatch.
I asked him if he might like to use that A Bel to grab Holland right now.
His only reluctance seemed to be that Hohn Cho might take Belgium.

Tsar J

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Unless YOU tell me otherwise, CON will support ANK-SMY.  Count on it.

Manus

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

Best word I have is they want me NOT to do Pie-Mar, and then this from Kal:

> >Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
> >
> >Gotcha.  Will you be popping Gas, then, as originally planned?  Or will
> >you be wanting to let him choose which unit to pull off after the loss
> >of Marseilles?
>
>
> Gonna try for Gas, just for the positional advantage it would give.

Time to come up with a counter.  It would be nice if I could maintain my
"in" with them for next season by not overtly helping you, but if there is
no way around that, let me know.

Manus

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>
> >Okay.  You should of course order Mos - War.
>
> Well, either that or Mos-Stp.
>
> Leave that to me, ok? I'm gently testing the water with England. If I go to
> Stp and England gets a build, it works out very nicely, because he'd have
> an excellent excuse to build on his east coast and move the new fleet to
> Nth. If he can do that and also maintain surprise against Germany, he'll
> almost certainly stab, since he'll have Hol or Den to snatch.
> I asked him if he might like to use that A Bel to grab Holland right now.
> His only reluctance seemed to be that Hohn Cho might take Belgium.
>
No problem, and I don't need to know.  I just didn't want it to sit, which
would have looked a little suspicious.

Kaiser D

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Oh no, it won't sit!

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Geez, I was thinking the moves were due tomorrow, for some reason. We have
to wait until Tuesday night.

Tsar J

Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,

I think he's BS'ing you about hitting GAS, to tell the truth.  In any
event, and in light of their claims (whether true or false), I think
we should do the sure thing, and have GAS-MAR, PIE S GAS-MAR, and
PAR-BUR.  That will guarantee a retake of MAR, and might well destroy
the German army there.  As for your fleets, what do you think?  GOL
and WES, or WES and NAF?  We might be able to get you into the MID if
we go WES and NAF, and wouldn't _that_ be a fun little ride. ;-)  Or
we can go the other way, too.  I leave it up to you.

Thoughts?

Hohn

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Cool.

Tsar J

Message from Turkey to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,

I'll do whatever you want.  If I don't hear back from you, I'll order
Smy-Arm and hope for the best.

Steve

Message from Italy to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Dear me:

Think about sending this to EG.

Okay, I've talked in enough circles about Marseilles that France and I
should be at cross purposes when the moves come out, but hopefully he'll
still trust me enough to let us twist the knife next turn.  :-) As agreed,
I will not be hitting Marseilles, and Gas should pop off the board if you
guys are giving it all you got.  I'm not sure if Hohn is going to do Gas
S Pie-Mar or if he's going to work on Burgundy, but I think we're ready for
showtime either way.

Gotta run,
Manus

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

Okay, last I heard, you wanted PIE S GAS-MAR, with fleets to LYO and WES.
Correct?  (Or did you want the fleets in WES and NAf?)  My orders are in,
but I'm setting WAIT to hear from you.

Manus

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Hi.

I have nothing to say, and I haven't heard from anyone for ages now.

But I thought it would be a good idea to say hi, just so you won't decide
to stab me out of pure boredom with the game. Of course, this is not a very
entertaining note. Should I juggle or something?

Tsar J

Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,

Fleets are your decision.  I think NAF/WES might be good to get you
nosed into the MID, but I have no complaint with GOL/WES.

Hohn

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Hi.
>
> I have nothing to say...

And you say it so eloquently (<:

>
> But I thought it would be a good idea to say hi, just so you won't decide
> to stab me out of pure boredom with the game. Of course, this is not a very
> entertaining note. Should I juggle or something?
>
Yes, that would be nice.  Can you keep three knives in the air at once? I
await the grand finale where they plunge simultaneously into three seperate
backs.

Nobody seems to be saying anything, we just wait for the results.  Not one
word from Germany this entire cycle.  Did you ever hear from him?

Kaiser D

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

>Nobody seems to be saying anything, we just wait for the results.  Not one
>word from Germany this entire cycle.  Did you ever hear from him?

Nope.

In GHODSTOO, John would go long periods without saying anything. This may
actually be a strategy, I know he *sometimes* keeps quiet for a special
reason; but I think he's just not devoting his full attention to the game.

At least one person has SET WAIT, and it's not me. And at least one person
doesn't have orders in, and that's not me either.

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> At least one person has SET WAIT, and it's not me. And at least one person
> doesn't have orders in, and that's not me either.
>
Not me either.  Of course, we expected someone to not have the orders in
as someone requested the extension.  Although what the point was given
that no one's negotiating I don't know.  Oh well, gives me a chance to
catch up on other things!

Kaiser D

Message from Russia to France in 'pouchtoo':

Hi Hohn.

The deadlines in this game are too long, don't you think? We're losing
momentum.

Tsar J

Retreat

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Wow, that really did go very well.

Except for Germany's move to Berlin, but he really had to do that with your
A Sil threatening.

I'm not sure where to retreat. I was thinking Boh, as we discussed, but it
now seems to me that War is just as good. And which looks less suspicious?
I think it's pretty suspicious for me not to occupy War when you have A Gal
and A Sil! So at the moment retreating to War seems best.

Maybe I should have gone Mos-War after all... nah. I need it up there more,
tactically speaking, when we attack Germany.

Tsar J

Message from Russia to France in 'pouchtoo':

Bravo.

Only you didn't manage to free Paris to rebuild :(. I hope that won't cost
you too much.

Tsar J

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

C'mon, King K, get a center fer gosh sakes! :)

I'm all ready to go after Germany, and I think it would be a good time to
pull the trigger against Italy too, but I am worried about the timing from
your end. Can you get a center from France this coming year and also maybe
stab for Holland or something? If so, we ought to just go for it. I mean,
if you can get yourself up to speed, we could take this right into a REA
endgame and just consider all the other powers to be little scraps to tidy
up. I can't see the three of them working together very well to bother us
(even you, who would be the most botherable).

Tsar J

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

I sure wish you had ordered mid-por. Things would have gone as I
expected and you'd own a French center. Now we are in for a tough fight.

Oh well, better luck next year.

The Kaiser

Message from Germany to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

What's the deal with mos-stp? Precautionary? Seems to me that army would
be more helpful in Warsaw right now.

The Kaiser

Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

I did it to force you to talk to me.

No, actually, I didn't want to move it to Warsaw, and I felt I had done
enough silly-looking moves, so I didn't want to leave it in Moscow. While
this may worry King Kal, there isn't much he can do about it at the moment.

With hindsight I admit that the army would be better in Moscow. Or even Warsaw.

But I'm not worried, Jim-Bob Burgess has guaranteed in public that I'll
participate in the ultimate draw.

Tsar J

Message from Italy to Austria and Russia in 'pouchtoo':

I haven't looked at the results and you guys
haven't mailed me since the moves.  How we doin'?

Manus

Message from Austria to Russia and Italy in 'pouchtoo':

> I haven't looked at the results and you guys
> haven't mailed me since the moves.  How we doin'?
>
Damn well if I may say so!  Interesting results in France. I didn't
really expect him to manage to hang onto all his centers, but with
none open for the build, he's still down a unit.

Turkey fades into the sunset, and things look rather nice.

Tallyho and all that rot!

Kaiser D

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>I sure wish you had ordered mid-por. Things would have gone as I
>expected and you'd own a French center. Now we are in for a tough fight.


Yeah, ain't hindsight wonderful?  ;)  I', thinking we have to go all out to
get at least one centre off Hohn this turn, no?

Let me look at the board and I'll see what we can do.

King Kal

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>
> Wow, that really did go very well.
>
Well, actually, while I pushed for the attack on Mar to keep Germany from
gaining a center and I'm glad it worked, I'm not thrilled by the disband.
That means he's going to be building an army in Kiel, which gives him armies
in Kiel, Munich and Berlin.  I'd rather have had one in Burgundy.

> Except for Germany's move to Berlin, but he really had to do that with your
> A Sil threatening.
>
> I'm not sure where to retreat. I was thinking Boh, as we discussed, but it
> now seems to me that War is just as good. And which looks less suspicious?
> I think it's pretty suspicious for me not to occupy War when you have A Gal
> and A Sil! So at the moment retreating to War seems best.
>
I think you have to.  Going to Boh would blatantly signal an AR as it would
leave War open.  I'm really hoping that we've still got Germany believing
there's no threat to him and that he'll send one of those armies west.  As
it is, we can put armies in Tyr, Boh, Sil and Pru in the spring.  Stp can
go to Fin as well.  It would be really nice to have your fleet in Bal, but
if you do that, then he gets into Swe.

In the south, we should be able to destroy the Italian fleet in the spring,
making Smyrna easy pickings in the fall and giving us both a guaranteed
build.

There is no way for France to prevent England taking Brest, so I'm hoping
he'll have no problems with making a move now as well.  If we're lucky,
we might be able to persuade him to take out Hol as well.  If successful,
that could lead to Germany going down 2, Italy going down 2 or 3 and France
going down at least 1, not a bad year's work!

Kaiser D

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Yep, I agree on all counts.

Ok, talk to you tomorrow about specific plans, I guess.

Tsar J

Message from Russia to Austria and Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Looks very good.

I'll be back to you both tomorrow, I hope, with more specific notes.

Tsar J

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

Well, it's not quite hindsight. I did suggest you order mid - por in my
analysis of the moves. I should have written out all the moves as if
they were going to the judge.

Really, though, no harm done. He lost his fleet and has no place to
build, so he's down one anyway. The bad news is he now has an ally (as
we anticipated).

What season are we in? I think it's Winter, so we'll have to figure out
what to do after retreats and builds.

I wrote Russia about mos-stp. He was coy, but essentially said he didn't
know what else to do.  With a little talk, and given his situation in
the south, he'll probably back off.

The Kaiser

Message from Italy to England and Germany in 'pouchtoo':

I haven't looked at the results yet, but I just got a message from
Austria which says France held on!  What??!  I'll pull up a map and
see what happened this evening....

Craving escargot big-time,
Manus

Message from Germany to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

No mysteries as to what happened. You supported France's attack on
Marseilles, and so he succeeded. Actually, I was not at all surprised.
He's still one down due to losing his fleet in Picardy and having no
place to build. Hohn probably did not expect that. But if you had not
supported Hohn, he'd be disbanding too.

In any event, you have now attempted to interfere on France's side
twice. What am I to make of this?

The Kaiser

Message from Italy to England and Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Germany asked:
>
> In any event, you have now attempted to interfere on France's side
> twice. What am I to make of this?
>
Make of it what you will, and then let me know, I suppose.  I am as sorry
to see France remain viable as you are, and I feel guilty about it.  I had
thought I would be gaining us an inside line with him, but as it turns out,
I have become a liability to the alliance in the attempt.  If you guys
feel I am not trustworthy and you want to chuck me, I won't fault you for it.
Heck, in your position, I would probably feel the same way.

Loose lips sink ships, and mine apparently are sinking me in your eyes.  I
discussed my attempts to snooker Hohn with other powers to my right, and
this, I now believe, turned out to be a major faux pas.

Anyway, as I say, please let me know if it is to be war between us as
a result of my actions.  I would honestly understand, but would of course
do my level best to defend my humble holdings.  Somehow, someday, though, I
still do intend to be find myself eating escargot along the Riviera.

Manus

Message from Italy to Austria and Russia in 'pouchtoo':

My relations with England and Germany are becoming strained.  (Gee, what
a surprise, huh?)  I'm doing my best to calm them, but it might not work.
How soon you guys going to get a black attack going?

Gotta run,
Mauns

Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

I sent you a response to this one, but haven't received its echo yet.
Given that I master a bunch of games, I often accidentally type
"signon Mpouchtoo" out of force of habit, so that mail will probably
bounce to me, but it hasn't yet.  I need to leave the office here
soon, but will hang a few minutes to see if I get a confirming echo
or a bounce because of bad password.  If I have to leave before you
get it, though, know that I will re-compose it tonight and that it's
not that I'm wanting to let anything slide.

Sorry so rushed,
Manus

> - The judge keeper.
>
> ==========================================================================
>
> Message from [email protected] as Germany to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>
> No mysteries as to what happened. You supported France's attack on
> Marseilles, and so he succeeded. Actually, I was not at all surprised.
> He's still one down due to losing his fleet in Picardy and having no
> place to build. Hohn probably did not expect that. But if you had not
> supported Hohn, he'd be disbanding too.
>
> In any event, you have now attempted to interfere on France's side
> twice. What am I to make of this?
>
> The Kaiser
>

Message from Italy to England and Germany in 'pouchtoo':

(This is a re-typing of a message I sent but
that never got echoed back to me by the judge.)

Germany asked:

> In any event, you have now attempted to interfere on France's side
> twice. What am I to make of this?
>
Make of it what you will and let me know, I suppose.  I am as distressed
as anyone over France's survival, and I feel guilty about it.  I had been
trying to give us an inside line with Hohn, and in the process, I have
managed to turn myself into a liability for our alliance.  If you guys
feel like you want to chuck me, I will understand.  Heck, in your position,
I would probably feel the same way.

Loose lips sink ships, and mine, I believe, may have sunk me in your eyes.
In my case, I think my mentioning my attempts to snooker Hohn to a certain
power to the right of me has proven to be a major faux pas.  It is an
incredible coincidence that two years in a row now, Hohn has taken a support
that he should have thought I was not giving.

As I say, let me know if it is to be war between us as a result of the
consequences of my actions.  I will honestly understand, but I will of
course do my level best to defend my territories.  And someday, somehow,
I still do intend to find myself eating escargot on the Riviera.

Manus

Build

Message from Italy to England and Germany in

'pouchtoo':

> Message sent to England and Germany:
>
> ...
>
(Of course.  Figures.)

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

I haven't even looked at the results yet, but press I've received tells
me I won't have much pull with Germany and England anymore.  How we doin'?

Manus

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

I am assuming that we'll just go ahead with the plan this year. So in the
Spring we'll surround Germany and capture Constantinople, destroying the
Italian fleet; and in the Fall we'll open fire against German centers and
capture Smyrna, releasing my fleet into the Mediterranean in the process.

If Germany smells it coming, we might manage only to get three armies
around him instead of four, but really that doesn't seem like it will be a
serious problem. Similarly, when I've got A Fin, F Swe, Germany might guess
right and stop my Scand units from progressing against him (e.g., if I go
Swe-Bal, Fin-Swe, and Germany orders Den-Bal), but this only buys him time.
It's fun to overwhelm the stabee quickly, but I do think time is on our
side: if it takes longer, we'll be that much surer of having England as an
ally.

That's the only hitch, by the way. Since England didn't get a center, he
may attempt to argue us out of our German attack. But as you say, he'll get
Bre and he ought to be able to stab for Holland (putting a fleet in Nth on
pretext of fear of my Scandinavian presence). I will brush off any but the
most strident objections that Kal might raise, and let you know if he does
get strident about it.

On Germany:

>Well, actually, while I pushed for the attack on Mar to keep Germany from
>gaining a center and I'm glad it worked, I'm not thrilled by the disband.
>That means he's going to be building an army in Kiel, which gives him armies
>in Kiel, Munich and Berlin.  I'd rather have had one in Burgundy.

Yeah, but this is definitely better than his having six centers. This way
he's facing some pressure to send another army to France. Or how are they
ever going to get rid of France? I can't see what they're plan could be
unless they get another German army in there. Surely they won't be counting
on Italian help.

>  It would be really nice to have your fleet in Bal, but
>if you do that, then he gets into Swe.

Yes, I can't do that. I considered it. I could always kick him out (I'm
sure he wouldn't order Kie-Den as well), but the problem is that he'd have
Nwy open for retreat. So England would have to use a fleet to cover Nwy,
and couldn't stab into Holland.

>In the south, we should be able to destroy the Italian fleet in the spring,
>making Smyrna easy pickings in the fall and giving us both a guaranteed
>build.

Right. There are two ways to do it, by the way. We could just
double-support my F Bla into Hol, and then my A Ank S F Con-Smy in the
Fall, with your Bul-Con unopposed; or we could bring your army in first. I
bet there is a tactical advantage to one of these, but I can't quite see
what it would be.

>There is no way for France to prevent England taking Brest, so I'm hoping
>he'll have no problems with making a move now as well.  If we're lucky,
>we might be able to persuade him to take out Hol as well.

Yeah. If he sees us outright attacking Germany, I feel fairly confident
that he will stab for Holland. If Germany is going to leave France, or if
Germany's usefulness to England expires, King Kal is going to want to be
sure to get his share of the spoils, and he must be feeling desperate for
growth about now.


>If successful,
>that could lead to Germany going down 2, Italy going down 2 or 3 and France
>going down at least 1, not a bad year's work!

Hmmmm.
I guess that's right!

And I think you and I would each be at eight centers, or one of us might
have nine; and England would have seven. And the other three powers would
have 3 or 4 centers. So that's close to ideal, I think, as the beginning of
an endgame.

Tsar J

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

I think we'll begin the blackattack immediately.

I want to hear what King Kal says about the current situation, because I
much prefer having him participate rather than defend John. But I'm
moderately confident that we'll just go ahead with it.

Dave sure has a lot of pieces. :( But at least you have a lot now, too. :)

Tsar J

Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Believe me, I do imagine I'll live to regret my decision too.
Howzabout we share a glass at Chapel Hill over it.

Til next time (and I hope there will be one),
Manus

Message from Germany to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

No, I don't want war with you. France is too strong and I remain
committed to occupying Paris. With your help, I will. With your
opposition, I will no doubt find myself beaten back to my homeland.

What can we work out to make this happen? With some good planning, we
can ensure that we make off with most of the French spoils.

The Kaiser

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

My silver tongue has gotten me back in Germany's good graces, and he
wants to start actively planning the destruction of France with me.
How's that for timing?

Any tactical advice?  Because...

I am,

Yet to even look at the last moves,
Manus

Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

> No, I don't want war with you.
>
Well, I imagine you can understand my immense relief on reading this!

> With some good planning, we can ensure that we make off with most of
> the French spoils.
>
Then good planning it shall be!

Before we turn our attention there, though, let's talk about our rear-ends.
As everyone can see, I have a pretty good relationship with Dave, and Jamie
(who I must admit has played me like a fiddle more than once already -- you
have seen much evidence of this yourself, as a matter of fact) talked me into
killing Steve rather than get bogged down in a war with him to which (at least
he argued, and I agreed) he could devote more forces, what with me on the
sail to Iberia and all.

Which leads me to wonder, though, what is to become of Dave and Jamie while
we busy ourselves digging snails?  Have you heard anything.  To be quite
frank, I still haven't looked at the moves (I guess I should).  Are they
attacking each other or not?  Jamie's only other choice (unless he wants
my two centers in Turkey, but I kind of doubt he'd go that route, with
Dave and me as close as I hope we are) is to attack Cal or you.  Austria's
is to attack you, I suppose.  Any indications of how well defended we
are?  I am of course constantly worried about Venice and Trieste, but so
far Dave has proven to be friendly both in manner and action.  Knock on wood.

Manus

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

Good news!  My silver tongue has succeeded in getting me back into
Germany's good graces (honest).  We should have some good inside info
this coming year.

I will let John make the first proposal, but I imagine his goals now
are to put him in Paris and me in Marseilles.  If it works with your
plans, it might prove very beneficial for me to follow along on the
German plan for Italian units in the Spring, which would perhaps put
me in Marseilles this coming turn.  Hopefully we can get me out of
there in the Fall to keep the center cyan, but even if we want to
leave me there due to tactical impossibilities or simply to continue
and solidify the charade, and new unit built would be devoted to our
common cause.

Manus

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Well, why don't you look at the results, and then we can talk about tactics!

Very interesting, that Germany is suddenly eager to cooperate with you. I
suppose this means that he has an inkling of his Eastern problems. I guess
anyone would be worried in his situation.

If you please, sir, make sure that *you* get the first benefits of your
cooperation with Germany. Because he may not be able to reciprocate if you
help him first! And it would really be a drag if he were to gain a center
>from France this coming year, too.

Is England also interested in cooperation, or hasn't he said?

Tsar J

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Well, why don't you look at the results, and then we can talk about tactics!
>
Not a bad idea!  That must be why you're so good at this!  :-)

> If you please, sir...
>
I please.  I definitely please.  :-)  [I had already planned this,
and am slathering up my tongue with some fresh silver.]

> Is England also interested in cooperation, or hasn't he said?
>
At least to me, he is singing The Sound of Silence.  I've heard only from
you, Dave, and John since the moves.

Manus

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> That's the only hitch, by the way. Since England didn't get a center, he
> may attempt to argue us out of our German attack. But as you say, he'll get
> Bre and he ought to be able to stab for Holland (putting a fleet in Nth on
> pretext of fear of my Scandinavian presence). I will brush off any but the
> most strident objections that Kal might raise, and let you know if he does
> get strident about it.
>
Okay, thanks.

> Yeah, but this is definitely better than his having six centers.
Oh, I'm not saying this isn't good.  Just not perfect.  Always striving
for perfection you know (<:.

>
> >  It would be really nice to have your fleet in Bal, but
> >if you do that, then he gets into Swe.
>
> Yes, I can't do that. I considered it. I could always kick him out (I'm
> sure he wouldn't order Kie-Den as well), but the problem is that he'd have
> Nwy open for retreat. So England would have to use a fleet to cover Nwy,
> and couldn't stab into Holland.
>
Right you are.


> Right. There are two ways to do it, by the way. We could just
> double-support my F Bla into Hol,
Hol?  Your Freudian slip is showing!

> and then my A Ank S F Con-Smy in the
> Fall, with your Bul-Con unopposed; or we could bring your army in first. I
> bet there is a tactical advantage to one of these, but I can't quite see
> what it would be.

So far I don't see any tactical difference either.  Maybe it's best to move
your fleet to Con then Smy.  The only reason for this is if I get into
Aegean in the spring, and am then bounced when trying for Ion in the fall.
If you are in Con, your fleet would be bottled, whereas if you are in Smy,
you can go to Eas and then we have two on Ion.

This does bring up the issue of other units as well.  What do you plan on
doing with Rum?  Are we going to leave the two armies in Turkey doing a
perpetual bounce in Smy?  I'd like to see the border have fewer units.
Rum is rather a gateway into my heartland, so it would be nice to see it
empty, and of course I'm looking to be moving my own armies north.

> >If successful,
> >that could lead to Germany going down 2, Italy going down 2 or 3 and France
> >going down at least 1, not a bad year's work!
>
> Hmmmm.
> I guess that's right!
>
Well, one of the questions we may well face is whether we should go for
Ven or Mun in the fall.  Germany is going to be getting hit from all sides,
so I have some preference for taking as much as possible from Italy in the
first year of the attack.  He's going to have nothing else to do but come
back at me!

Regards,
Kaiser D

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

>So far I don't see any tactical difference either.  Maybe it's best to move
>your fleet to Con then Smy.  The only reason for this is if I get into
>Aegean in the spring, and am then bounced when trying for Ion in the fall.
>If you are in Con, your fleet would be bottled, whereas if you are in Smy,
>you can go to Eas and then we have two on Ion.

True.
Also, if we *are* going to empty Turkey, it makes more sense to have your
army in Con than in Smy.

You know what's going to happen, I noticed this just now: at the end of the
coming year, Italy will retreat A Smy-Arm, so I will have to build A Sev.
Then Italy will very likely debuild that army in the winter, so my new A
Sev will be of no use there and I'll have to move it north. Oh well, a
small matter. But it will delay my building another northern fleet, which I
want to do asap before England has a chance to demand that I not do it. I
guess I might also get a build from Germany. Unlikely. Hm. Well, we'll see.

>This does bring up the issue of other units as well.  What do you plan on
>doing with Rum?  Are we going to leave the two armies in Turkey doing a
>perpetual bounce in Smy?  I'd like to see the border have fewer units.
>Rum is rather a gateway into my heartland, so it would be nice to see it
>empty, and of course I'm looking to be moving my own armies north.

You're going to move them north *and west*.

Yeah, I don't have a clear picture of the situation around our border as we
begin to 'branch out'. I agree that A Rum is too close to your heartland,
though. I'll move it, no problem with that. I'm going to have a problem
finding spaces for my armies! Since there will be a bottleneck heading into
Germany. I figure your armies will be leading the way in there, mine will
be crowding in behind. Maybe if I can build another fleet I can convoy
armies from Lvn to Kiel or something. That part will be fun, I love to
convoy. :-)


>Well, one of the questions we may well face is whether we should go for
>Ven or Mun in the fall.

Can't we go for both of them?

I see, you mean if Italy still has the A Pie, then you'd either use A Tri +
A Tyo against Venice, or you'd use A Tyo against Germany.
I agree, you should use the A Tyo against Italy if necessary, preferably
Tyo S Tri-Ven. As you say, we'll have Germany contained anyway. Also, you
really do want to have Tri empty to build a fleet, I think, so it's
important to be able to force the army into Venice.

On your (our, but mostly your) Italian attack generally:

The good part is that Italy will be way, way out of position. The bad part
is that you'll have to bash into Ionian, and it will take time. Once we get
my fleet, your existing fleet, and one new fleet into action, we ought to
be able to get you into Ion, since you'll be threatening Rome and pushing
armies into Apu and that sort of thing. I don't think Italy will be able to
use all of his fleets to protect Ionian. The only really serious problem I
can see is if England or France sends a fleet to help Italy. So again, we
do need England on our side, preventing France from getting involved and
staying out of the Med himself. And, of course, I really don't want him
helping Germany. Goes without saying.

Another small concern is this: if Italy starts cooperating with France or
Germany, it would be bad if he gives support to one of them in the Spring
and expects to be supported in the Fall, because that would mean his fleets
would not be moving west in the Fall. Or not as much.

I haven't heard a word from Cal, by the way.

Tsar J

Message from Germany to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

If you've looked at the moves by now, you know that Austria and Russia
hit each other hard. Russia's move to StP might have to be reversed if
he wants to hang onto Warsaw.

I am pretty well armed. I'll have units in all my home centers and
nothing really to fear.

You, by aiding France, did ensure you could take Marseilles for
yourself. I hope this was your limited aim. Quite honestly, your support
for France's recapture guaranteed that France would retake Marseilles,
so I am a little skeptical of your shock that such a thing happened. But
I could see an Italian interest in preventing Germany from holding
Marseilles, even while Italy remains set on owning France's centers. So
I think I can give the benefit of the doubt.

I can do any number of things, depending on what England wants to do.
Quite apart from what we/I do, if you simply knock off Marseilles in the
Spring, we should be well on our way to a succesful dismantling of
Hohn's empire. Can I count on you for that?

The Kaiser

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

Okay, I was right.  Germany wants me to attack and take Marseilles this
turn.  Would that be okay with you?  As I say, we should try to arrange
it so that it's a temporary stay and you keep the dot, but it will keep
England and Germany talking to and happy with me.  Also, it allows you
to (hopefully) surprise them by committing all your forces against them
and oblivious to the evil Italians, even after I stab you for one of
your home centers this Spring.

Let me know your thoughts,
Manus

Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

> If you've looked at the moves by now, you know that Austria and Russia
> hit each other hard.
>
Looking now....(finally)

> Russia's move to StP might have to be reversed if
> he wants to hang onto Warsaw.
>
Indeed so.  This is good news for the both of us!  It is nice to have
the red and the white pieces otherwise occupied.

> I am pretty well armed. I'll have units in all my home centers and
> nothing really to fear.
>
Excellent!

> You, by aiding France, did ensure you could take Marseilles for
> yourself. I hope this was your limited aim.
>
My aim was only to stay in France's good graces and yet snooker him
so that you kept Marseilles.  I left him thinking he'd get Pie-Mar
and he was supposed to order Gas S Pie-Mar.  I got double-crossed
by him because my own double-cross was (I strongly suspect) tipped
to him by one of those red or white guys we just got done talking
about.

But now that what has happened has happened, and looking at the board,
I see that you are right.  It will be easier to stick me in Marseilles
now and then work on getting you into Paris.  So yes, Marseilles will
be my plan.  I'm still debating my build -- either A Ven to follow A Pie
in to France or F Nap to follow F Wes into Iberia.  Leaning towards
A Ven, because the fleets will stack up at Gibraltar.

Speaking of Gibraltar... You and Cal.  In it for the long term together?
If so, how long is long?  :-)  I've no real reason to ask, but if you have
any reason to answer, we might be able to think of a reason to talk.

> Quite apart from what we/I do, if you simply knock off Marseilles in the
> Spring, we should be well on our way to a succesful dismantling of
> Hohn's empire. Can I count on you for that?
>
Indeed you can.

Manus

Message from Italy to Austria and Russia in

'pouchtoo':

Okay, I've looked at the moves now, and as Germany pointed out to me,
you guys seem to be ATTACKing each other!  I'm downright ashamed of
you!  :-)

Manus

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

Well, I just looked at the moves, and things look bad, don't they?
You stand to lose both Paris and Brest this turn.  And I'll be Springing
in Marseilles too.  I hope you have a trick up your sleeve for after.
I'm going to leave the tactics to you and just get Pie into Mar to help
you with whatever the heck you can come up with for Fall.

We *really* need an attack on Germany and England from the far east.
You hang on and I'll see what I can do.  It might be tight for you
for a while, but hang on for dear life and we'll try to get you
viable again.  Norway could fall to Jamie, but Dave seems to be
acting uppity in Galicia, so I don't know what's up there.

England and Germany's Spring moves are obvious, but by me going along
hopefully we'll know their Fall plans, and can manage to perhaps reverse
some of the bad fortune about to befall you.  :-(

Your ally, hoping he's not too late!
Manus

Message from Russia to Austria and Italy in

'pouchtoo':

See, Manus, it's really a good idea to look at the moves!

I know, you can almost always work them out *a priori*, from first
principles, and you hate to confuse yourself with details like the actual
adjudication, but it's amusing sometimes, don't you think?


Tsar J
p.s. Kaiser D., I had a pretty good-looking set of plans made up but I
wasn't quite satisfied so I saved them, but now I've left them on my office
computer. Sorry.
What am I saying, Dave doesn't read his email on weekends.

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> What am I saying, Dave doesn't read his email on weekends.
>
I'll read it twice so you'll feel better.

Manus

Message from Turkey to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,

I can't go to Chapel Hill.  The fares were just too high.  I've got to save
money for Seminary, which I'll be entering this Fall.

I'll probably play again.  I'll just try to duck you studs, get a couple of
easy wins.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From:	USWI Diplomacy Adjudicator [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent:	Friday, May 01, 1998 7:53 AM
To:	[email protected]
Subject:	Diplomacy notice: pouchtoo

Read http://hydaspes.if.org/~judge/ before you do anything with this judge.
If you can't read it on a web browser, email me and i'll send you a copy.

I guess i'll have to say it again.  DO NOT CREATE ANY GAMES ON THIS JUDGE
WITHOUT READING AND COMPLYING WITH THE REQUIREMENTS ON THAT PAGE.

- The judge keeper.

==========================================================================

>Message from [email protected] as Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Believe me, I do imagine I'll live to regret my decision too.
Howzabout we share a glass at Chapel Hill over it.

Til next time (and I hope there will be one),
Manus

Message from Germany to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

It appears that I am being pulled toward an alliance with AI, if you are
open to that. Italy has positioned himself to make off with most of the
French centers. If I am to make any permanent gains, I'll have to take
his part when his inevitable clash with England comes.

Meanwhile, you are apparently locked into a war with Russia. I can play
a useful role for you, as long as I don't have Italy coming at me from
the south. He's already talking about building A Venice. Given that you
and Italy are on good terms, such a build is doubly threatening to me -
but not if the three of us are allied.

Also, in the short term, helping you with Russia will take the pressure
off England, so he can stay focused on France.

This is as it should be, I think: the central powers take out the
corners. Your thoughts?

The Kaiser (north)

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

Italy continues to lie shamelessly about his actions. I pointed out to
him that his support for France guaranteed I would lose Marseilles, but
he maintains he was trying to snooker France so I would hold Marseilles.
I won't bother to pursue it. Every factual statement is simply met with
another absurdity. The bad news is that he's talking about building A
Venice. If he does intend to support France, he'll put the heat on
Munich.

I've written to Austria broaching the idea of helping him against
Russia. This, I hope, will force Russia to back off Norway.

As for France, a first glance suggests that we can and should crush A
Paris in the spring (gas-par, pic s gas-par, mun-bur). Hohn would be
playing two short and still have little prospect for building. If Hohn
cuts Picardy, then you could destroy F Brest with eng s mid-bre. In my
humble opinion, and bearing in mind how unsubtle my tactics are, nat s
iri - mid is called for. IMO, Norway will have to be saved by your
diplomacy with Russia and pressure from Austria, possibly with my help.

Italy promises he's going to take Marseilles. I'll believe it when I see
it, but it really does not matter for what we do. You will have to meet
his fleets regardless.

The Kaiser

Message from Germany to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

A Venice would make me rather uncomfortable. But beyond that, I was
thinking about the larger picture today. It seems to me that the most
productive arrangement would be for us to foster AGI alliance. I can
begin to help Austria against Russia as soon as he asks for it. On our
front, we can continue the destruction of France. But we know that
sooner or later you will have to confront England's fleets. At a crucial
moment, I can turn the tide in our favor, for example, by ejecting
England from Brest or Belgium when he least expects it, perhaps forcing
a crippling disband.

In other words, I'll be playing the kind of game with England that you
have been with France. At the right time, we show our swords.

In a year or two, our respective roles would be clear. AG land forces
would roll back the Czar. I would build armies and leave the seas
entirely to you. Your fleets would sweep west, ultimately attacking
England's homeland. France, if he survives, would a puppet until such
time as it is convenient to eliminate him, and likewise for the others.
Then we can discuss a 3-way or continue to fight it out, but AGI would
all be virtually guaranteed of being among the final three, if not part
of a draw.

In light of this, a fleet might be more useful to you in the long run
than an army. I would certainly take it as a friendly gesture toward
executing such a long-range vision.

I am interested in your views of the larger scenario I have outlined.

The Kaiser

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Sorry to be so long.  Out of town.

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>C'mon, King K, get a center fer gosh sakes! :)


Yeah, no kidding, eh?

>I'm all ready to go after Germany, and I think it would be a good time to
>pull the trigger against Italy too, but I am worried about the timing from
>your end. Can you get a center from France this coming year and also maybe
>stab for Holland or something? If so, we ought to just go for it. I mean,
>if you can get yourself up to speed, we could take this right into a REA
>endgame and just consider all the other powers to be little scraps to tidy
>up. I can't see the three of them working together very well to bother us
>(even you, who would be the most botherable).


I can probably get a centre from France and I'm certainly not averse to
grabbing Holland if I can work it out tactically.  However, my BIG problem
is whether or not Manus is going to force me into a Med war.  His actions
certainly indicate that this is his intention (at Hohn's urging no doubt)
and it would make big problems for me if I plan to have Germany for an
enemy.

Let me get back to you after I hear what lies Manus has for me... ;)

King Kal

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Italy continues to lie shamelessly about his actions. I pointed out to
>him that his support for France guaranteed I would lose Marseilles, but
>he maintains he was trying to snooker France so I would hold Marseilles.
>I won't bother to pursue it. Every factual statement is simply met with
>another absurdity. The bad news is that he's talking about building A
>Venice. If he does intend to support France, he'll put the heat on
>Munich.

>
>I've written to Austria broaching the idea of helping him against
>Russia. This, I hope, will force Russia to back off Norway.


His reaction will be interesting and will probably test my "phony war"
theory"

>As for France, a first glance suggests that we can and should crush A
>Paris in the spring (gas-par, pic s gas-par, mun-bur). Hohn would be
>playing two short and still have little prospect for building. If Hohn
>cuts Picardy, then you could destroy F Brest with eng s mid-bre. In my
>humble opinion, and bearing in mind how unsubtle my tactics are, nat s
>iri - mid is called for. IMO, Norway will have to be saved by your
>diplomacy with Russia and pressure from Austria, possibly with my help.


I'll get back to you later today on this.  I need some time to set the board
up and look at it which I don't have right now.

>Italy promises he's going to take Marseilles. I'll believe it when I see
>it, but it really does not matter for what we do. You will have to meet
>his fleets regardless.


I've told Italy that unless I see some very anti-French moves this turn, I
will dig in for trench warfare in the Mid.  We'll see how he responds.

King Kal

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Sorry to take so long writing, bu I've been out of town.

Well, Germany is totally convinced that Hohn has you for an ally and I'm not
far from that opinion myself.  I'd certainly like to believe that you and I
can hold to the original plan but it sure FEELS like there's going to be a
war in the Med.

I obviously want to hear your comments as I'd like to keep going the way we
had planned, but I'm essentially going to wait for one turn to see you make
some very aggressive anti-French moves.  If I don't see them (sigh), I start
boarding up the Med and digging in for a long trench war.

King Kal

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':


>I wrote Russia about mos-stp. He was coy, but essentially said he didn't
>know what else to do.  With a little talk, and given his situation in
>the south, he'll probably back off.


Are you getting the impression that the A/R scuffle is a "phony war"?  I am,
and I think we/you may be facing them in a turn or two...  I'll get back to
you when/if I hear more.

King Kal

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

King Kal,

If you're up for snatching Holland, I think I can take care of any worries
you have about Italian WestMed presence. Check with Kaiser Dave.

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Greetings Tsar!

> You know what's going to happen, I noticed this just now: at the end of the
> coming year, Italy will retreat A Smy-Arm, so I will have to build A Sev.
> Then Italy will very likely debuild that army in the winter, so my new A
> Sev will be of no use there and I'll have to move it north. Oh well, a
> small matter. But it will delay my building another northern fleet, which I
> want to do asap before England has a chance to demand that I not do it. I
> guess I might also get a build from Germany. Unlikely. Hm. Well, we'll see.


> Yeah, I don't have a clear picture of the situation around our border as we
> begin to 'branch out'. I agree that A Rum is too close to your heartland,
> though. I'll move it, no problem with that. I'm going to have a problem
> finding spaces for my armies! Since there will be a bottleneck heading into
> Germany. I figure your armies will be leading the way in there, mine will
> be crowding in behind. Maybe if I can build another fleet I can convoy
> armies from Lvn to Kiel or something. That part will be fun, I love to
> convoy. :-)
>

An epiphany!  The proverbial lightbulb going off.  It's serendipity at its
finest.  We kill two birds with one stone, you get the idea...
Russia: A Rum -> Sev

That empties out Rum, protects Sev, and really doesn't lose anything on
the March north as the armies are going to get bottlenecked anyway and
you've already got one in Ukr which can go to War.  So, we have the following
for next year:

Rum - Sev, Bla - Con, Ank s Bla - Con, Bul s Bla - Con, Gre - Aeg
Sev - Arm, Con - Smy, Bul - Con, Aeg/Gre - Ion, Ank s Con - Smy, Sev H/Sev - Arm

> I see, you mean if Italy still has the A Pie, then you'd either use A Tri +
> A Tyo against Venice, or you'd use A Tyo against Germany.
> I agree, you should use the A Tyo against Italy if necessary, preferably
> Tyo S Tri-Ven. As you say, we'll have Germany contained anyway. Also, you
> really do want to have Tri empty to build a fleet, I think, so it's
> important to be able to force the army into Venice.
>
Yes, I agree.

> On your (our, but mostly your) Italian attack generally:
>
> The good part is that Italy will be way, way out of position. The bad part
> is that you'll have to bash into Ionian, and it will take time. Once we get
> my fleet, your existing fleet, and one new fleet into action, we ought to
> be able to get you into Ion, since you'll be threatening Rome and pushing
> armies into Apu and that sort of thing. I don't think Italy will be able to
> use all of his fleets to protect Ionian. The only really serious problem I
> can see is if England or France sends a fleet to help Italy. So again, we
> do need England on our side, preventing France from getting involved and
> staying out of the Med himself. And, of course, I really don't want him
> helping Germany. Goes without saying.
>
I think the armies coming from the north and a fleet in Aegean will make
progress reasonably speedy.  That's another plus for my taking Venice, two
builds lets me funnel another army at Italy and keep the pressure on Germany.
We'll have three fleets on the Ionian by the next fall, and I don't see anyway
he will be able to keep us out.

> Another small concern is this: if Italy starts cooperating with France or
> Germany, it would be bad if he gives support to one of them in the Spring
> and expects to be supported in the Fall, because that would mean his fleets
> would not be moving west in the Fall. Or not as much.
>
Hmm, good point.  I've been throwing a suggestion his way each turn for France,
so it won't look out of place if I do it again.  I'll definitely suggest
something that has him moving west.

> I haven't heard a word from Cal, by the way.
>
Nor have I.

Kaiser D

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>King Kal,
>
>If you're up for snatching Holland, I think I can take care of any worries
>you have about Italian WestMed presence. Check with Kaiser Dave.
>
>Tsar J

Will do.  I was going to cc him this letter and then ask him, but I know
you're touchy about that sort of thing... ;)

King Kal

Message from England to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Sorry to take so long in writing, but I've been out of town.

Well, THAT turn certainly sucked for me.  I've got a likely I/F against me
and a Russia that has the choice of turning hostile against me... sigh.
Well, no one said these games were easy.

Russia is saying that he wants me to stab Germany this year by taking
Holland.  Now obviously, in the face of what the board LOOKS like, that
would be a rather foolish move on my part.  If I do that, I could be
antagonizing my only ally  and should you and Russia decide to join F/I in
heading northwest, I'd be very quickly dried and heated bread.

However, Russia assures me that you have every intention of turning against
Italy at the first possible chance.  Methinx that this would be a very
strange move for you given that Russia ALSO says that you and he are about
to hit Germany.  I'd appreciate any light you could shed on these unusual
claims by the Great Bear.

Suffice it to say that I would dearly LOVE it should you actually decide to
turn against your western neighbour.  I strongly doubt that there is any
chance of Germany and Russia working together so the risk to you of this
course of action would be minimal.  Also, it would buy me the time necessary
to make gains France and have the strength to move on Germany and Russia in
turn.

What do you think?  Any chance of me seeing some anti-Italian moves from you
this turn?

Kordially,

King Kal

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

I *am* touchy about that sort of thing, but I think it's about time to bring
things out in the open among the three of us.

Dave doesn't read his email on weekends, though.

Tsar J

Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

> I can't go to Chapel Hill.  The fares were just too high.
>
This is too bad.  I saw your name on the committee, so I was hoping
to be able to meet you.

> I've got to save money for Seminary, which I'll be entering this Fall.
>
Good for you!  Maybe that glass I talked about can be sacramental wine!  :-)
May God bless you in your vocation, and I will thank him for your calling.

> I'll probably play again.  I'll just try to duck you studs, get a couple of
> easy wins.
>
I get too much credit to get lumped in with experts like Jamie.  My play
is proving it, and probably will prove it even more before its over.

Manus

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

Can't write much -- very late at night and very tired.  However,
Germany and I are on very good terms at present, and I'm still
a snail connoisseur.  The last moves my attempt to arrange a
dual void supports was a failure, but I have identified the
reason why I think it was.  I'll be taking Marseilles now,
and hopefully by that you will know for sure where my loyalties
lie.

As I say, wish I could spend more time making sure you know that
my plan is not for a naval war in the Med, but that I am still
considering Austria in a similar vein as that in which you consider
Germany.

Manus

Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,

> Message from [email protected] as Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
> Well, I just looked at the moves, and things look bad, don't they?

Not the best, it's true.

> You stand to lose both Paris and Brest this turn.

I don't think so.

They have A GAS, A PIC, F ENG, F MID.  BRE is lost for sure, I agree.
PAR I can hold, for at least the spring.

I'm thinking the following:

PAR S MAR-GAS
MAR-GAS
BRE-PIC
SPA-POR (to block the evil English from trying to sneak in...I'd like
to save POR for you, if possible)

PIE-MAR
GOL S PIE-MAR
WES-MID

This way, they are definitely denied POR, and SPA.  (Any supported
attack on SPA is cut, MID by WES, and GAS by MAR.)  You are guaranteed
MAR, and hopefully I'll even be able to have my army survive with
supported MAR-GAS.  They will definitely be denied PAR, since PIC and
GAS will both be cut.  In fall, I will lose PAR, in all likelihood
(unless maybe I make it to GAS and they take BRE with a fleet), but
you will be in MAR, and will have three units bordering SPA.  With
luck, I will also make it into POR so I can live on for a few more
seasons to offer you support into MID forever.

That way, you'll have a solid line in SPA/MAR, you'll have my eternal
support in POR (hopefully), and the English/German dogs will have to
settle for one measly supply center each from my country, all while
facing a solid line arrayed against them...and hopefully Jamie will
swoop on them, too!  A fine revenge for me, and it would please me
greatly.  Basically, as soon as they started attacking me, I knew I
was probably history, but I wanted to make it as painful for them as
possible.  And I thank you for helping me do so (and I'm happy this is
also helping your position, too!).

What do you think?

> And I'll be Springing
> in Marseilles too.  I hope you have a trick up your sleeve for after.
> I'm going to leave the tactics to you and just get Pie into Mar to help
> you with whatever the heck you can come up with for Fall.
> We *really* need an attack on Germany and England from the far east.
> You hang on and I'll see what I can do.  It might be tight for you
> for a while, but hang on for dear life and we'll try to get you
> viable again.  Norway could fall to Jamie, but Dave seems to be
> acting uppity in Galicia, so I don't know what's up there.
> England and Germany's Spring moves are obvious, but by me going along
> hopefully we'll know their Fall plans, and can manage to perhaps reverse
> some of the bad fortune about to befall you.  :-(
> Your ally, hoping he's not too late!

I'm not concerned about going out.  I'm perfectly content to be
eliminated so long as my vengeance is carried out.  And if I can live
on for a while in POR, so much the better.

Hohn

Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,

Small wrinkle in my plan.  I just realized that although we block a
supported attack on SPA, a one strength attack will succeed if I make
it into POR, since we have nothing going there right now!

Tough call.  We can gamble on my making it into GAS, and have you go
into MAR unsupported, and send GOL-SPA.  Or we can...damn.  I don't
know.  I wish I'd gone to North Coast, instead of South (force of
habit).  Huh.  Well, let me think on it, and please let me know what
you think as well.

Hohn

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Italy continues to lie shamelessly about his actions. I pointed out to
>him that his support for France guaranteed I would lose Marseilles, but
>he maintains he was trying to snooker France so I would hold Marseilles.
>I won't bother to pursue it. Every factual statement is simply met with
>another absurdity. The bad news is that he's talking about building A
>Venice. If he does intend to support France, he'll put the heat on
>Munich.


Heh heh, my last note from Italy says: "Germany and I are on very good terms
at
present, and I'm still a snail connoisseur" which is very funny in light of
your first sentence.  :)

An army in Venice would underscore the thing we've failed miserably in so
far: taking Hohn down quickly.  We absolutely HAVE to take a couple of
centres off him this year or we can kiss this game goodbye.

>I've written to Austria broaching the idea of helping him against
>Russia. This, I hope, will force Russia to back off Norway.


With Russia still claiming that he can get Austria to turn on Italy "at any
time" their relationship bodes worse for you than for Italy, but what the
heck, it's worth a try.

>As for France, a first glance suggests that we can and should crush A
>Paris in the spring (gas-par, pic s gas-par, mun-bur). Hohn would be
>playing two short and still have little prospect for building. If Hohn
>cuts Picardy, then you could destroy F Brest with eng s mid-bre. In my
>humble opinion, and bearing in mind how unsubtle my tactics are, nat s
>iri - mid is called for. IMO, Norway will have to be saved by your
>diplomacy with Russia and pressure from Austria, possibly with my help.


If it's all the same to you (which it probably isn't...grin), I'd prefer to
go with the following:

A Pic-Par, s by Ger A Gas
F Mid-Bre, s by F Eng

My rationale for Army Picardy taking Paris is that Army Gascony will be much
more useful to us NEXT season right where it is as opposed to being in
Paris.  I'm pretty sure the odds of Paris being taken are equal either way
as I see the army in Marseilles going to Burgandy before it goes to Gascony.
Comments?

>Italy promises he's going to take Marseilles. I'll believe it when I see
>it, but it really does not matter for what we do. You will have to meet
>his fleets regardless.


His short note to me last night swears up and down that his anti-French
intentions will become apparent after the Spring moves.  I'm with you on
this in doubting it rather strongly.

King Kal

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

No doubt, Italy does think we are on good terms. He asked me bluntly
whether we were at war as a result of his support for France. I said no,
I still want his help. As long as I don't insist on challenging his
story that he blundered, he'll expect me to continue in that vein.

Re tactics, it is all the same to me, actually. I agree with you that
the only object is to take Hohn down. I don't care about who gets what
right now. Here's a possible worry. Say Italy does not hit Marseilles.
Hohn knows Paris is doomed, so he orders mar s par - bur. You move into
Paris, and his fleet could be in Picardy. Our strong offensive position
is turned around in a minute, especially if Italy is on his side. I
could see, for instance, a deal whereby Italy gets Spain, France moves
spa-por, and there we are with three hostile fleets on the mid.

Also don't overlook that Gascony is vulnerable.  My mun-bur would cut
off the retreat route, and if Hohn sees it the way you do, he could wipe
out the army.

I am thinking perhaps we should support mun-bur in the Spring. You can
still hit Brest.

Well, a lot depends on Italy's build, so I won't speculate too much. The
main point is that I don't care right now how we do it, let's do it.

I think the A-R war is real. This has been going on long enough that
even if they started out thinking it was a ploy, their nerves would be
shot by now. It appears to me they've simply played well and thus stood
each other off. In any case, I don't think I am that tempting a target.

The Kaiser

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Kaiser D!

>An epiphany!  The proverbial lightbulb going off.  It's serendipity at its
>finest.  We kill two birds with one stone, you get the idea...
>Russia: A Rum -> Sev

YYyyyeah... could do that. 


>That empties out Rum, protects Sev, and really doesn't lose anything on
>the March north as the armies are going to get bottlenecked anyway and
>you've already got one in Ukr which can go to War.

True. Only, it does leave me just a *little* more open than I would like. I
mean, look, we both know that there's at least a chance that the other will
stab, and we're each banking on the alliance being more profitable in the
long run than a quick stab. And I think it's a good bet, on my side (and on
yours too!). But I don't want to make it *too* tempting.

Can I leave the army in Rumania for a while longer, please? I do think I
can have that army be the one to protect Sev, so I can indeed build F Stp
next winter.

(Remember, you told me to let you know if any of your suggestions made me
nervous, so I'm letting you know.)

>Rum - Sev, Bla - Con, Ank s Bla - Con, Bul s Bla - Con, Gre - Aeg
>Sev - Arm, Con - Smy, Bul - Con, Aeg/Gre - Ion, Ank s Con - Smy, Sev H/Sev
>- Arm


That's two seasons, and the first one ends with that comma separating
"Sev-Arm" and "Con-Smy", right?

That's fine, but if it's ok I'd prefer to leave the A Rum where it is for
the coming season.


>I think the armies coming from the north and a fleet in Aegean will make
>progress reasonably speedy.  That's another plus for my taking Venice, two
>builds lets me funnel another army at Italy and keep the pressure on Germany.
>We'll have three fleets on the Ionian by the next fall, and I don't see anyway
>he will be able to keep us out.

Yeah. Well, especially if I can build F Stp. And esp. if England joins the
party! Speaking of which, I finally heard from him, and he was game except
that he seemed worried that Italy might be posing a real challenge. So I
strongly suggested he confer with you about that. :)



>Hmm, good point.  I've been throwing a suggestion his way each turn for
>France,
>so it won't look out of place if I do it again.  I'll definitely suggest
>something that has him moving west.

Manus has asked me for tactical suggestions. I don't want to be too obvious
about it, but I'll see what I can do.


Ok, so I think now the only interesting issue remaining is making sure King
Kal is on board. We might try three-way press if it seems like he isn't
getting easily convinced. If we do that, each of us can also send press to
e alone, expressing a little concern about the other and asking for a
British pledge to help keep the other in line. Of course, this is going to
be hard to explain in my case, since the prospects for England bailing me
out if you stab me are pretty far-fetched! But just the mention of it is
important, I think, so that King K. doesn't get the overwhelming feeling
that he is about to aid and abet a new, peculiar version of the
Juggernaut....


Tsar J

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

Hey, got your mail messages and will go thru and answer them, but even
before I do, I thought I'd write to you to get your advice on a build.
A Ven or another fleet?  From skimming your mail, it seems my major play
will be into the Med., which is fine with me.  Lisbon will treat you
well.  We Itlaians have always had a good rapport with the Portuguese,
so we'll have them preparing nice quarters for your government in exile.

Manus

Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

I thought I owed you at least the courtesy of mentioning that I am
considering building that army in Venice that you said would make
you a bit uneasy.  Thing is, I'm just not sure I need too many more
fleets, and I don't want Pie in Mar without an army right behind it.
Let me know if this is too disconcerting for you, though, because I
don't want to get myself in any more hot water.

Manus

Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

I just read your mail a bit closer (the one proposing an AGI, with you
two taking on Russia, and I sail through the pillars to the Atlantic).
Pursuing such a thing would be fine with me.  I propose that you approach
Dave and see how he feels about it.  The whole A/R relationship is a
jumble to me, but with A/I so close (so far) I think we have a good chance
to add a "G" in there.  He will doubtless need help if he is to take
on Jamie, and all I can do from Turkey is just harass things a bit before
I'd be pushed off.

Manus

Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Your advice on builds is welcome, given any plan I have may indeed
involve fleet pressure in the Atlantic rather than armies down Iberia.
I just think building another fleet would anger and forewarn Kal.
So as I said, I'm still leaning toward building Venice, and it may end
up that way, but if you have any tactical advice, I'll listen.

Manus

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Greetings Tsar J!

Hope you had a good weekend!  My youngest learned how to climb out of his
crib this weeekend.  Sleep always was overrated!

> >An epiphany!  The proverbial lightbulb going off.  It's serendipity at its
> >finest.  We kill two birds with one stone, you get the idea...
> >Russia: A Rum -> Sev
>
> YYyyyeah... could do that. 
>
> >That empties out Rum, protects Sev, and really doesn't lose anything on
> >the March north as the armies are going to get bottlenecked anyway and
> >you've already got one in Ukr which can go to War.
>
> True. Only, it does leave me just a *little* more open than I would like. I
> mean, look, we both know that there's at least a chance that the other will
> stab, and we're each banking on the alliance being more profitable in the
> long run than a quick stab. And I think it's a good bet, on my side (and on
> yours too!). But I don't want to make it *too* tempting.
>
> Can I leave the army in Rumania for a while longer, please? I do think I
> can have that army be the one to protect Sev, so I can indeed build F Stp
> next winter.
>
> (Remember, you told me to let you know if any of your suggestions made me
> nervous, so I'm letting you know.)
>
Okay, I certainly do understand your reluctance as Rum is a bit vulnerable.
However, please do take a look at the flip side of the coin.  Under the
current plan, I will be vacating Bul.  Ser is already empty.  Gal will
be heading to Boh.  Bud may well go to Tri.  You can perhaps understand
how a Russian army in Rum makes me feel very vulnerable to you?  My idea
was that we both leave the area.  Obviously whether you move to Sev in the
Spring or the Fall does not affect the rest of our joint moves so as long
as you are willing to say you'll head to Sev in the fall there's no problem.
I'd be more comfortable if you left in the spring, but it's not a make or
break issue.

> >Rum - Sev, Bla - Con, Ank s Bla - Con, Bul s Bla - Con, Gre - Aeg
> >Sev - Arm, Con - Smy, Bul - Con, Aeg/Gre - Ion, Ank s Con - Smy, Sev H/Sev
> >- Arm
>
>
> That's two seasons, and the first one ends with that comma separating
> "Sev-Arm" and "Con-Smy", right?

Actually, it was two season, split at the new line.  You don't have a sev to
move to arm in the spring.
>
>
> >I think the armies coming from the north and a fleet in Aegean will make
> >progress reasonably speedy.  That's another plus for my taking Venice, two
> >builds lets me funnel another army at Italy and keep the pressure on Germany.
> >We'll have three fleets on the Ionian by the next fall, and I don't see
anyway
> >he will be able to keep us out.
>
> Yeah. Well, especially if I can build F Stp. And esp. if England joins the
> party! Speaking of which, I finally heard from him, and he was game except
> that he seemed worried that Italy might be posing a real challenge. So I
> strongly suggested he confer with you about that. :)
>

> Ok, so I think now the only interesting issue remaining is making sure King
> Kal is on board. We might try three-way press if it seems like he isn't
> getting easily convinced. If we do that, each of us can also send press to
> e alone, expressing a little concern about the other and asking for a
> British pledge to help keep the other in line. Of course, this is going to
> be hard to explain in my case, since the prospects for England bailing me
> out if you stab me are pretty far-fetched! But just the mention of it is
> important, I think, so that King K. doesn't get the overwhelming feeling
> that he is about to aid and abet a new, peculiar version of the
> Juggernaut....
>
>
Ah yes, and now we get into the interesting part of it.  I've had notes from
both G and E.  An interesting twist has arisen.  G seems to feel that he
is being forced into an AIG alliance.  He sees that there's nothing really
left for him in France due to Italy's positioning, and sees you making a
move in the north. He's now talking about helping me against you so as to
leave E free to deal with F.  Now quite what we had planned!  I don't see
any way that I can really turn down that offer without making him sure that
I'm going to attack him.  On the other hand, the only move your way he has
is Ber - Pru, and I can say I'll support him there while I can really
support War to Pru instead.  My other concern though is that he may well
build a fleet in Kiel if this is his plan!  Not great, but we can deal
with it.  He also mentions that Italy is talking about building A Ven,
something I'll need to check into.  Please make sure you advise against
this!

King Kal has also written.  He seems a it leery of you at the moment, now
that you have the option to attack him in the north.  He's mentioned that
you have told him that I'll attack Italy, but he's skeptical of this as
you have also told him that we'll attack Germany, and I don't think he
believes I'll do both.  On the face of it, he seems rather disinclined to
hit Holland, but as long as he's in position in the fall, I think we may
be able to convince him to do so, and he has every reason to consider moving
to North Sea.  What he really wants is assurances that I'll hit Italy this
year.

I don't think we really want to work the three way press just yet.  I'm
figuring more that I will assure him on the Italian front, and say that
I'm quite certain your aim is towards Germany, and that I will be with
you in that effort, although not in any major way since I'll concentrate
on Italy.  Based on that, his grabbing a center from Germany would be a
big help to all of us, breaking up Germany's lines and getting him a new
center.

I've yet to write those two back, your thoughts would be appreciated before
I do so.

Kaiser D

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

We'll get back to this after the builds, okay?

Kordially

King Kal

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>No doubt, Italy does think we are on good terms. He asked me bluntly
>whether we were at war as a result of his support for France. I said no,
>I still want his help. As long as I don't insist on challenging his
>story that he blundered, he'll expect me to continue in that vein.
>
>Re tactics, it is all the same to me, actually. I agree with you that
>the only object is to take Hohn down. I don't care about who gets what
>right now. Here's a possible worry. Say Italy does not hit Marseilles.
>Hohn knows Paris is doomed, so he orders mar s par - bur. You move into
>Paris, and his fleet could be in Picardy. Our strong offensive position
>is turned around in a minute, especially if Italy is on his side. I
>could see, for instance, a deal whereby Italy gets Spain, France moves
>spa-por, and there we are with three hostile fleets on the mid.
>
>Also don't overlook that Gascony is vulnerable.  My mun-bur would cut
>off the retreat route, and if Hohn sees it the way you do, he could wipe
>out the army.
>
>I am thinking perhaps we should support mun-bur in the Spring. You can
>still hit Brest.
>
>Well, a lot depends on Italy's build, so I won't speculate too much. The
>main point is that I don't care right now how we do it, let's do it.
>
>I think the A-R war is real. This has been going on long enough that
>even if they started out thinking it was a ploy, their nerves would be
>shot by now. It appears to me they've simply played well and thus stood
>each other off. In any case, I don't think I am that tempting a target.

Message from Austria to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>
> Okay, I've looked at the moves now, and as Germany pointed out to me,
> you guys seem to be ATTACKing each other!  I'm downright ashamed of
> you!  :-)
>



I think we're all set for the big push now.  Germany has mentioned the idea
of an AIG to me.  Obviously you and I want to keep up the idea of AI vs R
until after the rude surprise in the fall.

He did mention to me as well that you had told him you were planning on
building A Ven.  As you know, we've both taken pains to demilitarize our
border, and this really wouldn't be thrilling for me.  If you are planning
on attacking France this turn, I would think that the best attack would
be:  Pie - Mar, Gol s Pie - Mar, Wes - Spa/sc.  I think you are going to
want another fleet over there soon as you and England are going to be
vying for control of MAO.  Build F Nap, Nap - Tys, then support Wes
into Spa in the fall from Gol and Mar and move Tys to Wes will give you
a strong lock on the southern centers and a good springboard for the MAO.

Regards,
Kaiser D

Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Fleet Naples is is, then.  I just didn't want to unduly alarm England,
but if one more fleet can be justified as a completely anti-French/Spanish
gesture, I'm okay.

More in a minute.

Manus

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

King Kal:

Well, I broached the idea of building A Ven with both Germany and Austria
and neither liked it at all.  My feeling was that I probably have enough
fleets for the job of visiting "certain coasts" and that I would like an
army to follow Piedmont in to Marseilles.  However, given the responses
of the German-speaking people, I've decided to float another boat and wait
another year to enlist some Italian land forces.  I thought I should notify
you, though, for two reasons:
   (1) I didn't want you to be unduly alarmed by my navy.
   (2) If I do end up having an extra fleet that I'd rather be an army,
       maybe you could, in some future year, feign an action against me
       that would result in a fleet dislodgement so that I could build the
       army I'm foregoing now.

So this is just a heads-up.  As I said, I do believe (hope) that Germany is
not too displeased with me.  Surely not as displeased with me as I am with
myself.  Let me know your own feelings.

Manus

Message from Italy to Austria and Germany in

'pouchtoo':

In the interests of an AGI, which has been laid on the table for
discussion, I am building a fleet rather than an army.

Manus

Message from Germany to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,
You are worried that building a fleet will "anger and forewarn Kal." It
seems to me that building an army might anger and forewarn Germany.

But if that is your main concern, why not forego a build this year and
take it next year? You are in no danger. You'd barely be able to use the
extra unit (except against me).

Barring that, I can see a DEFENSIVE purpose for an army. So why not
build A Rome?  Then, if all goes well, you might even convoy it to the
western front.

Just tossing out ideas.

The Kaiser

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Greetings, Kaiser D!

Lots of food for thought.

I understand your point about vacating Rum at the same time you vacate the
neighboring properties of your own. Hmmmm.
Can we just say that I will leave in the Spring or in the Fall?



>Ah yes, and now we get into the interesting part of it.  I've had notes from
>both G and E.  An interesting twist has arisen.  G seems to feel that he
>is being forced into an AIG alliance.  He sees that there's nothing really
>left for him in France due to Italy's positioning, and sees you making a
>move in the north. He's now talking about helping me against you so as to
>leave E free to deal with F.  Now quite what we had planned!  I don't see
>any way that I can really turn down that offer without making him sure that
>I'm going to attack him.  On the other hand, the only move your way he has
>is Ber - Pru, and I can say I'll support him there while I can really
>support War to Pru instead.  My other concern though is that he may well
>build a fleet in Kiel if this is his plan!  Not great, but we can deal
>with it.  He also mentions that Italy is talking about building A Ven,
>something I'll need to check into.  Please make sure you advise against
>this!

Great, John chooses *this* moment to start talking!

Well, there are two main difficulties arising out of this, I think: the A
Ven and the F Kie, those two 'potential' units. I would say that the A Ven
is more serious, though I am not at all happy about a F Kie either. I can't
see what to do about preventing B F Kie, except for the heavy-handed
approach (telling John that I am at a decision point and if he builds F Kie
I'll just have to attack him). It's tricky to do anything about the A Ven
too, because Manus must expect that I would naturally be *glad* to see that
unit (available in case I decided I wanted him to stab you because *I*
wanted to stab you, and also in case you stab me I'd presumably want him to
be able to help me out). I might tell Manus that England has 'offerred' to
come into the Mediterranean. I'll think about it.

>King Kal has also written.  He seems a it leery of you at the moment, now
>that you have the option to attack him in the north.  He's mentioned that
>you have told him that I'll attack Italy, but he's skeptical of this as
>you have also told him that we'll attack Germany, and I don't think he
>believes I'll do both.  On the face of it, he seems rather disinclined to
>hit Holland, but as long as he's in position in the fall, I think we may
>be able to convince him to do so, and he has every reason to consider moving
>to North Sea.  What he really wants is assurances that I'll hit Italy this
>year.

Hm.
That's a problem, because I bet he will sail the F NAO to Nwg, rather than
the F Eng-Nth, if he doesn't think he is going to want to try for Holland.
On the other hand, that's probably what he wants to do anyway, because he
needs the F Eng to get Bre for sure, and he must be sweating to get a
center.

>I don't think we really want to work the three way press just yet.  I'm
>figuring more that I will assure him on the Italian front, and say that
>I'm quite certain your aim is towards Germany, and that I will be with
>you in that effort, although not in any major way since I'll concentrate
>on Italy.

I have to agree with you about that, under the circumstances, yes.


>I've yet to write those two back, your thoughts would be appreciated before
>I do so.

Well, I think you've got the right approach. I can't think of anything
better, anyway.

As long as I'm sure I'll get the build for Smy, I can deal with whatever
Germany can throw, I think. (It could be ugly, though. If he gets a F Bal,
he could convoy an army into Livonia. Maybe we'll have him so tied up
defending his home centers that he won't have a free army to do that? I
hope so.) And by the same token, I think we can afford to wait for England
to see exactly what's happening, as long as we're pretty sure he will just
go ahead and dig in to Germany once he sees.

I'll send something to England and something to Italy, and maybe even
something to Germany, pretty soon. What the hell, I'll write to Hohn Cho
too, he must be feeling lonely.

At least things are getting more interesting, huh? :) The adjustment is due
this evening....

Good luck with your climbing child, too.

Tsar J

Message from Germany to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Oh, I meant to say, I did contact Austria about the Big Picture. He has
not replied. Perhaps he does not negotiate during the build phase. Now
and again, I try to adhere to that policy.

The Kaiser

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

I hope that Austria has told you that he will definitely assist you with
any Italian problem that arises.

Do you have any idea what Kaiser John will build? I mean, will he build a
fleet? (If he's told you, that probably means it would be intended for me!)

Tsar J

Message from Germany to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus wrote:

>In the interests of an AGI, which has been laid on the table for
>discussion, I am building a fleet rather than an army.

Needless to say, I am happy to hear this. Our messages crossed in the
mail, so I am especially pleased to see you were on the same wavelength
as me before I even made my case.

The Kaiser

Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

> You are worried that building a fleet will "anger and forewarn Kal." It
> seems to me that building an army might anger and forewarn Germany.
>
Oh, I was (most definitely)!  I just saw more tactical use for an'
army going west.

> But if that is your main concern, why not forego a build this year and
> take it next year? You are in no danger. You'd barely be able to use the
> extra unit (except against me).
>
Not a bad idea!  I've already sent my order for a fleet, but I'll give
waiving some thought.

> Barring that, I can see a DEFENSIVE purpose for an army. So why not
> build A Rome?  Then, if all goes well, you might even convoy it to the
> western front.
>
I thought of this as well, and I'll make sure to add it to the mix of
things I'm about to think about, then.

> Just tossing out ideas.
>
And good ones!

Manus

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

So, have you looked at the results yet?

What are you going to build? Tough choice. I wouldn't exactly complain
about an A Ven, but on the other hand England has offered (I ought to put
that in quotation marks!) to move into the Mediterranean. Well, since he's
got to do *something* with all those fleets. Of course, I'd dearly love it
if he'd invade Germany with them, and I'm intimating so. But he's very
noncommital.

I feel pretty comfortable about my relations with Austria, in case you were
really wondering, though that could certainly change in a hurry.

Tsar J

Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

> Oh, I meant to say, I did contact Austria about the Big Picture. He has
> not replied.
>
He wrote to me saying that he received your message about AGI.  I think
he is interested, and I imagine will be responding soon.

> Perhaps he does not negotiate during the build phase. Now
> and again, I try to adhere to that policy.
>
Not me.  :-)  [Hope by doing so I am not offending.  I've always been of
the school that diplomacy is fine in PBEM retreat and adjustment phases.]

Manus

Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

I wonder whether you have any interest in occupying Silesia, which after
all is yours.

Tsar J

Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

> >In the interests of an AGI, which has been laid on the table for
> >discussion, I am building a fleet rather than an army.
>
> Needless to say, I am happy to hear this. Our messages crossed in the
> mail, so I am especially pleased to see you were on the same wavelength
> as me before I even made my case.
>
As was hinted in my announcement of the fleet build, I was aware that
you had laid AGI out for Austria.  In his note to me about that, he also
expressed concern for any Venice build.  So I thought I could signal not
only my understanding of his (and your) positions on my build but also
my support for the AGI proposal by making my build a fleet.

Your ideas of waive and A ROM are still swirling in my head, though.

Manus

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> So, have you looked at the results yet?
>
:-)  Sorry I didn't say so.  Yeah, I've looked.  You and Austria seem
to have the western powers convinced you're at each other's throats.

> What are you going to build? Tough choice.
>
Tough indeed.

> I wouldn't exactly complain about an A Ven,
>
That was my initial thought, but I felt that to keep myself out of hot
water I had to run it  past AG.  Both objected rather strongly.  Dave
made a case for F Nap, and that is my current order.  I was afraid another
fleet might alarm and forearm Kal, who seems to be the least happy player
with me as it is (Germany seems to have gotten over my failure to let
him keep Marseilles, but Kal hasn't written me his forgiveness yet).

> but on the other hand England has offered (I ought to put
> that in quotation marks!) to move into the Mediterranean.
>
I see.  This is, of course, exactly what he promised me on a stack of bibles
that he would never ever do.

> Well, since he's
> got to do *something* with all those fleets. Of course, I'd dearly love it
> if he'd invade Germany with them, and I'm intimating so. But he's very
> noncommital.
>
Keep on him.  Maybe when he sees what you and Dave are about to do to Germany,
he'll want a piece of the pie before it's gone.  I obviously don't want him
trying to break through down here.

> I feel pretty comfortable about my relations with Austria, in case you were
> really wondering, though that could certainly change in a hurry.
>
This is about what I was thinking -- that we three are currently (in all
honesty) one big happy alliance.  Glad to hear I am not wrong in this.

Manus

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

(about your build)
Ok.
I guess I like that build better, on the whole. An Army in Venice would be
a little *safer* for me, personally, but as long as I'm trusting Dave I may
as well go whole hog, and if you're all on the water he'll be more willing
to commit hard against Germany.

>> but on the other hand England has offered (I ought to put
>> that in quotation marks!) to move into the Mediterranean.
>>
>I see.  This is, of course, exactly what he promised me on a stack of bibles
>that he would never ever do.

Ah. Right, how silly of you to be concerned! England would *never* want to
move into the Mediterranean, why that would be imperialistic!

Well, maybe it means he really is interested in invading Germany. As you
say, we'll try to make it an easier decision for him.


>> I feel pretty comfortable about my relations with Austria, in case you were
>> really wondering, though that could certainly change in a hurry.
>>
>This is about what I was thinking -- that we three are currently (in all
>honesty) one big happy alliance.  Glad to hear I am not wrong in this.

Yeah. *Eventually* Dave is going to run out of real estate, and either you
or I will be his expansion area. But for now it looks pretty tight.
Unless he's already striking a deal with Germany and England, this is my
one fear -- I'm sure he wouldn't tell you about it, either. This is the
problem with having 'convinced' the NW that Austria and Russia are at war.
It tempts them to try to form a GEA alliance. Oh well, as I said, I pretty
much have to either trust Dave or stab him, and I'm in no position to stab
him!

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Hello Tsar,

No need to talk to Italy about Ven, I have defused that one and definitely
expect F Naples at this time.


>
> I understand your point about vacating Rum at the same time you vacate the
> neighboring properties of your own. Hmmmm.
> Can we just say that I will leave in the Spring or in the Fall?
>
>
Yes, as long as you will leave (to Sev or Ukr!) in the spring or fall we
are okay.  Remember, I'm supporting you into Con in the spring, which leaves
me much more at your mercy than vice versa!


> Great, John chooses *this* moment to start talking!
>
Yeah, I know (<:

> Well, there are two main difficulties arising out of this, I think: the A
> Ven and the F Kie, those two 'potential' units. I would say that the A Ven
> is more serious, though I am not at all happy about a F Kie either. I can't
> see what to do about preventing B F Kie, except for the heavy-handed
> approach (telling John that I am at a decision point and if he builds F Kie
> I'll just have to attack him). It's tricky to do anything about the A Ven
> too, because Manus must expect that I would naturally be *glad* to see that
> unit (available in case I decided I wanted him to stab you because *I*
> wanted to stab you, and also in case you stab me I'd presumably want him to
> be able to help me out). I might tell Manus that England has 'offerred' to
> come into the Mediterranean. I'll think about it.
>
As mentioned, Ven is okay.  I think we can handle F Kie as well, although
it may slow us a bit.  Remember, his other army is in Gascony, so that
means no army to move to Kie if the fleet goes to Bal.  So, with the build
for Smy in your pocket, you can risk Swe to gain Ber:

  Swe - Bal, Fin - Swe, Pru - Ber, Boh - Mun, Sil s Pru - Ber.

This could lose out, but it would take a pretty convoluted guess on Germany's
part.  And if he tries something tricky (bal - Gob), then you get into Bal.

Gotta run,
more later

Kaiser D

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

>No need to talk to Italy about Ven, I have defused that one and definitely
>expect F Naples at this time.

Too late, I already asked him. But I didn't lobby him about it. And he did
tell me he'd build the fleet. So that's ok.


>Yes, as long as you will leave (to Sev or Ukr!) in the spring or fall we
>are okay.  Remember, I'm supporting you into Con in the spring, which leaves
>me much more at your mercy than vice versa!

Hm, yeah, I was thinking about that issue too. It's complicated.
But anyway, fine, that's a deal.

> I think we can handle F Kie as well, although
>it may slow us a bit.  Remember, his other army is in Gascony, so that
>means no army to move to Kie if the fleet goes to Bal.  So, with the build
>for Smy in your pocket, you can risk Swe to gain Ber:
>
>  Swe - Bal, Fin - Swe, Pru - Ber, Boh - Mun, Sil s Pru - Ber.
>
>This could lose out, but it would take a pretty convoluted guess on Germany's
>part.

He'd just have to do Mun-Sil. But it is a guess, indeed.

If we really do manage to get the four armies all around Mun and Ber, I
think John will have his hands too full to try anything tricky against me.
I *could* do that trick we discussed earlier, just ordering Swe-Bal in the
Spring, with Stp-Fin. Because Germany might do Kie-Bal, Den-Swe, and I'd
block him; or he might do Kie-Den, Den-Swe, and then I'd take Berlin in
exchange for Sweden and I think I could *count* on England's help then, if
Germany finished with two fleets in Scandinavia.

As I said, my concern will be to come out of next year with a build. If I
can do that, and we do get England to play along, then there's no further
problem. (And I must say, thinking ahead a little, it's not clear to me
that we will need England for very long -- the best bet might be for me to
stab him hard once you're rounding Sicily, keep him out of the Med. But we
can look into that later.)

I know a little bit about how John's mind works in pure tactical
situations, because I worked with him extensively in GHODSTOO (on his side,
I mean. Ok, technically speaking, I was his puppet, and I gave him tactical
advice! But we needn't go into that...).
On the other hand, he knows how *mine* works.
But our side will have your ideas to confuse him. :)

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

> It appears that I am being pulled toward an alliance with AI, if you are
> open to that. Italy has positioned himself to make off with most of the
> French centers. If I am to make any permanent gains, I'll have to take
> his part when his inevitable clash with England comes.
>
> Meanwhile, you are apparently locked into a war with Russia. I can play
> a useful role for you, as long as I don't have Italy coming at me from
> the south. He's already talking about building A Venice. Given that you
> and Italy are on good terms, such a build is doubly threatening to me -
> but not if the three of us are allied.
>
> Also, in the short term, helping you with Russia will take the pressure
> off England, so he can stay focused on France.
>
> This is as it should be, I think: the central powers take out the
> corners. Your thoughts?
>

I certainly welcome the idea of a northern ally.  My biggest problem right
now is that Italy is poised to make lots of gains, while I have a hard
struggle to make any progress.  Pressure on the northern front would
definitely be a help.  I have talked to Italy about army Venice and as you
know, he has agreed not to build one, so that should take the pressure off
of both of us.

A move by you into Prussia would certainly help to put the pressure on
Russia.  I'm not sure that he could keep Warsaw in that scenario.

Kaiser of the south.

Message from Austria to England in 'pouchtoo':

> Well, THAT turn certainly sucked for me.  I've got a likely I/F against me
> and a Russia that has the choice of turning hostile against me... sigh.
> Well, no one said these games were easy.
>
Well, while it good be that bad, I'm not really betting it will be.  I
don't expect Russia to attack you, and Italy may well get greedy and
go for the centers.  It would leave him awfully stretched out to go
all the way around France.  At the best, France would have to buy him
off by giving him something.

> Russia is saying that he wants me to stab Germany this year by taking
> Holland.  Now obviously, in the face of what the board LOOKS like, that
> would be a rather foolish move on my part.  If I do that, I could be
> antagonizing my only ally  and should you and Russia decide to join F/I in
> heading northwest, I'd be very quickly dried and heated bread.
>
A four-way alliance.  My head aches just to think about it (<: .

> However, Russia assures me that you have every intention of turning against
> Italy at the first possible chance.  Methinx that this would be a very
> strange move for you given that Russia ALSO says that you and he are about
> to hit Germany.  I'd appreciate any light you