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Press for Fall of 1906 in pouchtoo
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Movement
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
I understand why you felt you had to do that, but I'm pretty disappointed
that you had to really try to screw me in the process. I did, after all,
agree to give you pretty much whatever you asked for.
It's a shame, I think you could have done well for yourself if you'd
negotiated. Not that you won't do well now! But there's a long game ahead.
Tsar J
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Oooh. So it was all hot air, huh?
But maybe you've outsmarted yourself, because I would certainly have
supported you to Greece, and now, *O*B*V*I*O*U*S*L*Y*, I won't. So I'm not
sure what the point was.
Well, it's the dreaded Worst Case Scenario, but I can't say it's entirely
surprising. I still think I can do ok in the game. I bet it's going to be a
long one now.
Tsar J
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Round Two to the Kaiser!
Tsar J
Message from Russia to France in 'pouchtoo':
Could use some of that help (cf. your broadcasted offer). Too bad, it looks
like your delivery will be delayed. Probably permanently. C'est la vie!
Tsar J
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>I understand why you felt you had to do that, but I'm pretty disappointed
>that you had to really try to screw me in the process. I did, after all,
>agree to give you pretty much whatever you asked for.
>
>It's a shame, I think you could have done well for yourself if you'd
>negotiated. Not that you won't do well now! But there's a long game ahead.
??? Geez. what is it with this game? Whenever I make a move which,
although perfectly logical as being pretty much my only option, I get told
I'm being an asshole who is committing something personal beyond the scope
of the game. First, Hohn and then Manus and now you.
I am really at a loss as to why you feel I tried to "screw" you. When the
moves we tried last season failed, thanks to Hohn's move, I fell so far
behind you as to make any other course of action than trying to stop you,
foolish.
I can't honestly believe that you think I should have tipped my hand to you
and announced an attack?
Sorry this note is so disjointed, but I'm a bit upset at the moment. I
think I'm going to retire from these so-called "demo" games. All they've
demonstrated so far, to me at least, is questionable sportsmanship.
Cal
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> Oooh. So it was all hot air, huh?
>
Yeah? I have only glanced at the moves, and only the Austrians at
that (I'm good at this, diploming without looking, eh?)
> But maybe you've outsmarted yourself, because I would certainly have
> supported you to Greece, and now, *O*B*V*I*O*U*S*L*Y*, I won't. So I'm not
> sure what the point was.
>
This I'm sorry to hear, because I don't really understand why your would
withdraw your offer. I am actually in the ION now. I imagine the only
one of my moves that puzzled you was Rom-Apu? What else could have
surprised you? I meant to change Rom-Apu to Rom-Nap, but the moves
processed before I could. I had Rom-Apu back when I was thinking Dave's
likely order was ION-Nap with support. My orders changed too many times
and I missed the Rom order.
As I say, as for me and my own surprise, I have to admit it was a very
pleasant one that Dave has decided to leave me alone. As I said, I haven't
looked yet at what Cal did, but from your description, I guess I have another
pleasant surprise coming?? Woo-hoo!
But with this flush of good luck comes the news that my big bear of a partner
considers me too dangerous to be an ally? Like I say, I don't understand
exactly what prompts you to withdraw from our fledgling pact. I know I'm
not much of a partner, but if they're going to leave me alone, maybe I
can become someone worth at least a LITTLE something?
Manus
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Well, I just looked at the results (believe it or not, I guess it helps) and
I see why you won't support me into Greece. It has nothing to do with your
lack of faith in me, and a lot to do with a need to protect Smyrna. Oh well,
maybe later?
Anyway, now that the tension is eased on me, maybe Dave will talk more and I
can get a bearing on what's coming your way. Worth a try, I suppose....
Manus
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Darn! I didn't get Rom-Apu changed to Rom-Nap before the moves went through.
Jamie has already mailed me claiming I set him up with all my "no one wants
to do the anti-R alliance" talk. I wrote back still professing innocent
surprise that you have decided to lay off me and even bigger surprise at
Cal's similar decision. I made sad eyes about his "I won't be supporting
you into Greece, I guess!" statement, asking with a bald face, "Why not??"
We'll see if he keeps buying what I'm selling. If I can get a committment
for AEG S ION/Apu-Gre, I'll let you know.
I hope Cal holds up his end and lets me take Spain (that was the
arrangement if things worked out this way, right?) I could use a build
much more than he could.
So I'm thinking Mar-Spa, Tun-WES (then convoy Spa-Tun next turn) and
put the build down as an army in Naples, which will follow my other army
onto Anatolia. Can you back me up with Cal on this plan, and urge in
your strong way that when I evacuate Spain, he gets his fleet as far
>from Portugal as he can. Thanks!
Manus
Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
Well, Cal, what you've worked for for so long is now within your grasp,
and with your support from Portugal, Marseilles will deliver Hohn his
death blow. I'll use the build in my own little world (and Dave's and
Jamie's) while you prosecute the war north. I would appreciate it if
after Por S Mar-Spa, you send Portugal up to the North Sea waters, and
we can totally DMZ the western waters until matters in the east are
decided.
Jamie's picking up another two -- maybe three, depending on your
coordination with Dave in Munich -- so we have our work really cut
out for us. Unfortunately, the only build we can get on our side
will have been gotten after we usher Hohn out, so we need to make the
best use of what we have from here on. May the ghods smile upon us.
Manus
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
After looking at the map, I see that Jamie can't afford to support me
into Greece, given that he ran Con-Bul. I've mailed him an, "oh, THAT'S
why not" and continued discussions with him on the assumption that he
should still consider me anti-you. I'll keep you posted....
Manus
Message from England to Austria and Italy in
'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Well, Cal, what you've worked for for so long is now within your grasp,
>and with your support from Portugal, Marseilles will deliver Hohn his
>death blow.
Whoopee. Sorry, my enthusiasm for this game (and Diplomacy in general) is
very low right now. Jamie fired off a little note accusing me of "screwing"
him in the game. He made it sound as if it was a personal attack on him.
I'm getting a little tired of that in this game. sigh.
>I'll use the build in my own little world (and Dave's and
>Jamie's) while you prosecute the war north.
I will be needing a bit of help up north in order to get the maximum effect.
Specifically, I want us to perceive A Mun & A Boh as being part of the
northern front. If we do that, we will have a unit count of 7 to 5 (6 if
you count Moscow) up north, which would then leave us with a 7 to 4 (5 if
you count Bla) ratio down south. If I don't have the use of those two
armies (Boh & Mun, that is), it leaves me outnumbered up north (and
pondering my future in this alliance...) and leaves the south with overkill
(even if A War does what I expect and heads towards Austria.
I'd like to get reactions to this before suggesting any specific tactics.
>I would appreciate it if
>after Por S Mar-Spa, you send Portugal up to the North Sea waters, and
>we can totally DMZ the western waters until matters in the east are
>decided.
Please don't take this wrong, but I intend to leave a token force in the
south for my own protection. The way this game has gone, I am not going to
assume that, if we can drag Russia back down to earth, there will be peace,
love and joy in Muddville. Since I stand to gain a few centres from any
Russian collapse, that will make me the obvious next target (as we start to
play a very Calhamerian style game) and I'm not going to leave my throat
bare. One fleet won't be a threat, but it won't leave me open either. If
you wish to leave that army currently in Marseilles in Spain, feel free.
Given the proximity of Paris, that would probably be more of a threat to me
than my fleet is to you, but I'll live with it
>Jamie's picking up another two -- maybe three, depending on your
>coordination with Dave in Munich -- so we have our work really cut
>out for us. Unfortunately, the only build we can get on our side
>will have been gotten after we usher Hohn out, so we need to make the
>best use of what we have from here on. May the ghods smile upon us.
Given good coordination and a bit of luck, we have a shot at one or more of
Den or Kie and there will definitely be quite the free-for-all in Austria &
the Balkans. Jamie's southern position doesn't really look totally
invincible. In fact, it looks a bit scrambly to me (at least on first
glance - I'll have to refresh myself on who owns what, but I think it's
certainly recoverable).
Regards
Cal
Message from Italy to Austria and England in
'pouchtoo':
> Whoopee. Sorry, my enthusiasm for this game (and Diplomacy in general) is
> very low right now. Jamie fired off a little note accusing me of "screwing"
> him in the game. He made it sound as if it was a personal attack on him.
> I'm getting a little tired of that in this game. sigh.
>
Well, I feel very responsible for this, and I wish to repeat my own apologies
for the outburst I let out a few turns ago. I myself can be happy in the
game that things have turned around a bit for me, and I can perhaps delude
myself acting the flown off the handle party might have had some hand in it
but if it also had any hand in turning you off on anything (out of the game)
I feel very bad.
I'll reply to the remainder of your message either tomorrow or Monday. I
only got to this at 1 AM my time, and will be going to bed soon. But had
to fire off that single paragraph at least, and please accept my apologies.
Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Actually, you have to give me a little slack, but accept my apologies
anyway please.
Understand that I wrote that message just after I had seen the worst
possible moves in the results.
I thought a little, and I can see why you did what you did, and it's
consistent with our plans (such as they were) after all.
What I was upset about was the fact that you had supported yourself into
Ionian and hadn't even bothered to cover Naples in case you forced Austria
to retreat. So I knew (what I'd thought was entirely possible already) that
you did it because Dave asked you to force him to retreat from Ion, so he
could get either Eas or Aeg, whichever I'd left vacant.
But never mind, I had not thought everything through carefully.
Let me get back to you shortly with what I *should* have said.
Tsar J
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Wait, let's see. Your story is that you *meant* to order Rom-Nap, but
forgot to change the order?? I don't remember the last time I believed a
story like that!
I think Dave asked you to dislodge him from Ionian, and that he intended to
retreat to Aeg if I'd stayed in Eas, so you weren't worried about covering
Naples. I think he suggested that you could convoy into Syria if his fleet
went to Eas.
Am I wrong?
However, I also think you might very well have agreed to do all that even
if what you wanted was to take Greece and Venice. That's why you moved to
Apu instead of to Nap, so you could pop into Venice if the opportunity
arose. So, I am hoping that's what you want now, Greece and Venice.
Ok. So, true, I do have to cover Smyrna, but I still have A Bul that could
support you into Greece, and I think that's probably its best move. I
assume Dave will not be expecting you to try to take Greece -- you will be
in a good position to confirm that, right?
I'm confused about what you're thinking now. My instincts tell me that you
did go along with Dave's plan last move, and that you are now making up a
(somewhat implausible!) story for why you didn't move to Naples. But my
left brain tells me that by far your best strategy at this point is to help
me dismantle Austria, take a nice healthy share of the spoils, and try to
set yourself up to stretch both directions over the Tun stalemate line.
That looks like it gets you a draw share, maybe 98% guaranteed. And since I
can't see that I have any better approach than that for myself, I'm
prepared to play it just that way too. I'll put up some resistance in the
North, but I think it's a losing battle, Cal has me badly outgunned; but
I'll mainly concentrate on eliminating Dave.
How does this strike you? I mean, it's a dull plan, I admit, but I bet
you'd get enthusiastic praise from the observers for coming back from the
lowest-ranked position to a draw share. :-)
Tsar J
Message from Austria to Italy and England in
'pouchtoo':
Hi guys,
I haven't had time to really look at things, but based on a quick glance
at the board and your notes here are my thoughts.
Por should support Mar to Spa, there is no need for an English fleet to
enter MAO. If it makes Cal feel more secure to leave the fleet in Por
while Manus leaves the army in Spa I can deal with that.
I agree to the concept of commiting the two armies to the northern
front. We need to do some serious thinking about the actual moves
however. I'm down two centers this round and losing Munich could lead
to real problems in the south. Let's all come up with some plans of
attack then hash out the best one.
As to taking the game personally, I can only apologize on the behalf of
others. It's only a game and if someone else get's too wrapped up in
it, the best we can do is to try to not let it ruin our own fun. This is
my second game with you Cal (the other being the black hole game in
Costaguana) and you seem to have come in for the personal assault in both
cases. I can understand that leading to a lack of interest. The obvious
solution of course is to elminate those who can't keep their focus (<:.
Obviously we need to have more fun with this. How long do you think before
we can set up to convoy an Austrian army to Stp?
-Dave
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Well, thanks for your rethinking (kinda, sorta). As for Rom-Apu and
the supported move to ION, I do see how you can view them as pro-Austria.
And I will certainly play this fact up to Dave (who, I am happy to report,
[happy from my point of view, at least] has already contacted me since
the moves!)
The honest-to-God fact, though, is that I truly, seriously meant to
order Rom-Nap. Sounds like a lie, perhaps, but I swear it's the truth.
I went back and forth on supporting to ION or just tapping it and hitting
WES. If I had known Dave would be vacating, I wouldn't have supported,
but then like you say, he couldn't know if he would get out successfully.
I knew from your offer of support to Greece that you were headed for AEG.
If I had known Dave would be ordering ION-EAS, I could have and would have
used my Tunis fleet to guard against Cal, with Tun-WES.
I admit that I suggested the forward retreat to Dave. He never responded,
though, leading me to believe I could expect nothing but more prosecution
of the I/A war. I see now that he decided, I suppose, to do it without
telling me, and in terms of my own relationship with Dave, I'm glad that
in all my waffling I ended up on the support. The Rom-Apu bozo I will be
able to use to my advantage with him as well, so I'm not kicking myself
TOO hard, although Rom-Nap, which is what I wanted, would have been just
as good.
Now, as for Greece, I still see no reason why I shouldn't take it, if your
offer still stands. However, now that I have Dave's ear, I will bend it
a while and see what he lets out. Perhaps it will be worth it to us for me
to play along with him a time, and gain some good flanking position perhaps,
since it does seem I will be left well enough alone (hallelujiah!) for a
while. I'll let you know what I am finding and what I am thinking.
Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Ok, you've convinced me that you really did do such a dumb, novice thing as
forget to change your orders.
:-) :-) :-)
(I hope you took it as a compliment that I was having a hard time believing
you about that.)
>The Rom-Apu bozo I will be
>able to use to my advantage with him as well, so I'm not kicking myself
>TOO hard, although Rom-Nap, which is what I wanted, would have been just
>as good.
It would not have been just as good. From Apulia you can move to Venice.
But I agree, it does work as a "See, I'm on your side" card with Dave. Ask
him to convoy you to Syria. He'll like that, I bet.
>Now, as for Greece, I still see no reason why I shouldn't take it, if your
>offer still stands.
It stands.
> However, now that I have Dave's ear, I will bend it
>a while and see what he lets out. Perhaps it will be worth it to us for me
>to play along with him a time, and gain some good flanking position perhaps,
I doubt it, personally. Strike now and get both Gre and Venice. I will have
two of his centers (unless I'm missing something pretty drastic!). That
leaves him with four, and if he doesn't leave one in Munich he will lose
that (I'd be happy to just let Cal take it). Seems as though with about
four of my units and a couple of yours, we ought to be able to take on the
three armies in and around Austria without too much trouble. So I don't see
much point in waiting. (He wouldn't leave a fleet standing, would he? I
think that would be foolish. Anyway, in that case we'd surely take his
remaining centers next year.)
But if you're more comfortable waiting, ok. (Sort of. I'd really rather
not. I don't want to get into a position where Cal is challenging the
stalemate line and we still have Dave sitting in the middle of the
southeast heartland, presumably entirely on Dave's side. But since there
isn't anything I can do about it, I'll just say it's ok with me if you
prefer to wait.)
Look, I should outline the global situation as I see it. I haven't fully
analyzed it at all, in fact I haven't even plotted the map, but at the
moment I can only see things one way, it looks like a pretty simple game to
me from here on in.
Cal will eat me alive in the north, I don't think I have much of a chance
to stop him, but I do think I can slow him down (probably slow him down a
lot). He outnumbers me badly up there, so I think it's just a matter of
time before he cracks any defense I can muster. I'll just try to make it as
long a time as I can.
Maybe your A Mar can go wandering around in France, and certainly you (and
Hohn) can make Cal sweat around Gibraltar. I am assuming that we will try
to eliminate Dave as fast as possible, and if worse comes to worst the
stalemate line ought to be relatively easy to establish (as long as we each
have the right flavor of units). (Oh, I am also assuming you will help Hohn
survive. There would obviously be little difficulty in eliminating him
later if it's a matter of draw-reduction.)
It looks like a 3-way draw to me. (Congratulations!) I am not telling Cal
that that's what I think, though. (Actually, I'm not speaking to him for
the immediate future, but that's another story!) Even though he'll have
only, hm, ten or eleven centers after this year, I guess I think there is
*some* chance that if he got complete cooperation from Dave he could make a
run at 18. I'd rather have him thinking that the game is still to contain
and reduce me, so he'll concentrate on Scandinavia and Stp and not on
building armies and trying to get them across the line.
If you got Gre and Ven, you'd be in pretty good shape. Tactically,
strategically, in excellent shape, even though you'd still be well behind
me and Cal in numbers. I don't know whether I can really try for Munich, or
whether that doesn't make sense, but in any case we could get Dave down
very low, three or four. Then either eliminate him next year, or throw some
weight at Cal and eliminate Dave the following year.
Does that sound ok? I'm not still too much of a threat, am I? (From here I
don't feel like one, but I do still have lots of units and you are
presumably not quite feeling like a major power yet!)
Ciao,
Tsar J
p.s. Did you see my r.g.d. posting about the 'next edition' of your
infamous "F Nth-Pic" article?
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>??? Geez. what is it with this game? Whenever I make a move which,
>although perfectly logical as being pretty much my only option, I get told
>I'm being an asshole who is committing something personal beyond the scope
>of the game.
???
Could you say which part of my message that you have in mind? I didn't say
anything even remotely resembling that.
>I am really at a loss as to why you feel I tried to "screw" you. When the
>moves we tried last season failed, thanks to Hohn's move, I fell so far
>behind you as to make any other course of action than trying to stop you,
>foolish.
I've already said what the alternative was: you could have *negotiated*.
You even started to do that, or so I thought, maybe it was all just a hoax.
You requested Kiel and Denmark. I replied that I thought that was a bit
drastic, but that I would agree if that was the only deal you'd accept.
Instead, you pretended to accept my offer of Munich.
>I can't honestly believe that you think I should have tipped my hand to you
>and announced an attack?
Not what I said.
But as a matter of fact I don't think that would have made much difference!
>Sorry this note is so disjointed, but I'm a bit upset at the moment. I
>think I'm going to retire from these so-called "demo" games. All they've
>demonstrated so far, to me at least, is questionable sportsmanship.
Hey, I think that was uncalled for. I've tried, successfully I think, to
stay out of all the name-calling. Don't try to drag me into it, I won't
bite.
Tsar J
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>
>>??? Geez. what is it with this game? Whenever I make a move which,
>>although perfectly logical as being pretty much my only option, I get told
>>I'm being an asshole who is committing something personal beyond the scope
>>of the game.
>
>???
>Could you say which part of my message that you have in mind? I didn't say
>anything even remotely resembling that.
Your very first sentence: "I understand why you felt you had to do that, but
I'm pretty disappointed that you had to really try to screw me in the
process."
I think this makes it sound as if the moves I made were for more than just
the gaming advantage. If you understand why I felt I had to join the "Stop
the Tsar!" campaign, exactly what was it I did that made it a "screw" job as
opposed to simply acting in my own self-interest?
>>I am really at a loss as to why you feel I tried to "screw" you. When the
>>moves we tried last season failed, thanks to Hohn's move, I fell so far
>>behind you as to make any other course of action than trying to stop you,
>>foolish.
>
>I've already said what the alternative was: you could have *negotiated*.
>You even started to do that, or so I thought, maybe it was all just a hoax.
>You requested Kiel and Denmark. I replied that I thought that was a bit
>drastic, but that I would agree if that was the only deal you'd accept.
>Instead, you pretended to accept my offer of Munich.
Unfortunately, the game situation deteriorated so rapidly, negotiations were
no longer a possibility. You may see it otherwise, but if I hadn't turned
against you, you would have waltzed to victory with little trouble. I
certainly don't underestimate you as a player, please don't underestimate my
grasp of the overall board situation.
If you are referring to our agreement that we would notify each other if one
felt the other was getting too far ahead, the situation changed too rapidly
for that to work. You will remember, I hope, that I DID express concerns on
TWO separate occasions. Both times you responded positively and we worked
things out. That wasn't going to work this time because you had gone past
the point of no return. My choices were obvious: work with you and watch
you grab the 18th center (please don't say you wouldn't have; this game is
being played at too high a level for me to have afforded to believe that)
and move against you. Since I had no choice but the latter option, it only
made sense to try to use diplomacy to make my attack as effective as
possible. You'll notice that, even with my deceptions, it's a guessing game
in the north. If you still had an army in Denmark, you'd be at the
advantage, I feel. Surely, if I had tipped my hand, you'd not have convoyed
that army.
>>I can't honestly believe that you think I should have tipped my hand to
you
>>and announced an attack?
>
>Not what I said.
>But as a matter of fact I don't think that would have made much difference!
Se above.
>>Sorry this note is so disjointed, but I'm a bit upset at the moment. I
>>think I'm going to retire from these so-called "demo" games. All they've
>>demonstrated so far, to me at least, is questionable sportsmanship.
>
>Hey, I think that was uncalled for. I've tried, successfully I think, to
>stay out of all the name-calling. Don't try to drag me into it, I won't
>bite.
Uncalled for? You're probably right. I definitely have my hackles up over
this game and no doubt my being supersensitive could easily have led to an
overreaction. If so, I apologize, but my perspective isn't likely to
improve until some time after this game is over.
Anyway, luck to you. I hope I have explained my position. Again, if I have
overreacted to what you said or even simply misinterpreted, I apologize.
I'm just not very fond of this "hobby" right now.
Cal
Message from England to Austria and Italy in
'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Austria to Italy and England in
>'pouchtoo':
>Por should support Mar to Spa, there is no need for an English fleet to
>enter MAO. If it makes Cal feel more secure to leave the fleet in Por
>while Manus leaves the army in Spa I can deal with that.
Definitely, as regards the A Mar-Spa, s by F Por moves.
>I agree to the concept of commiting the two armies to the northern
>front. We need to do some serious thinking about the actual moves
>however. I'm down two centers this round and losing Munich could lead
>to real problems in the south. Let's all come up with some plans of
>attack then hash out the best one.
I'll sit down tomorrow and work out some tactics. We do have to be very
careful in our final choice of tactics. I think that, long term, there is
little doubt that Russia will fall to our triumvirate, but the more builds
he gets this turn, the longer (and more risky) that will take/become.
As much as I like to play for tactical position, we have to count dots here.
>As to taking the game personally, I can only apologize on the behalf of
>others. It's only a game and if someone else get's too wrapped up in
>it, the best we can do is to try to not let it ruin our own fun. This is
>my second game with you Cal (the other being the black hole game in
>Costaguana) and you seem to have come in for the personal assault in both
>cases. I can understand that leading to a lack of interest. The obvious
>solution of course is to elminate those who can't keep their focus (<:.
Right now I'm tending to lean towards the other easy choice: retirement from
the hobby. I'll save THAT decision for after the game though.
>Obviously we need to have more fun with this. How long do you think before
>we can set up to convoy an Austrian army to Stp?
ASAP, I hope.
Cal
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>Your very first sentence: "I understand why you felt you had to do that, but
>I'm pretty disappointed that you had to really try to screw me in the
>process."
>
>I think this makes it sound as if the moves I made were for more than just
>the gaming advantage.
Not at all. I was speaking entirely 'within the game'. (I always speak
within the game. The only time I've stepped out of the game was when I was
urging you not to step out and holler at Steve!)
I was saying that I could understand why you felt you had to do
*something*, but disappointed that you felt the only thing you could do was
to wreck my position as fully as possible. That there was nothing you could
see between merrily continuing as though I were no threat, and all-out
hostilities.
> If you understand why I felt I had to join the "Stop
>the Tsar!" campaign, exactly what was it I did that made it a "screw" job as
>opposed to simply acting in my own self-interest?
Just this: I thought you could have protected that interest without
detracting so severely from mine.
This is how alliances work, isn't it? Both allies know, unless they're
hopeless naifs, that *ultimately* their interests are not the same. But
each is willing to give up a little of his own immediate interests, and
when each does so there is some mutual benefit, and the prospect of ongoing
cooperation for further benefit. That is what I was hoping for. I would
have given up a whole lot, because I didn't have any choice, really, and I
thought some cooperation would still be to mutual advantage.
>Unfortunately, the game situation deteriorated so rapidly, negotiations were
>no longer a possibility.
You can't mean 'rapidly' in real time! There were weeks and weeks! So you
must mean in 'game time'.
> You may see it otherwise, but if I hadn't turned
>against you, you would have waltzed to victory with little trouble. I
>certainly don't underestimate you as a player, please don't underestimate my
>grasp of the overall board situation.
You could have done it very differently. You didn't need to throw
*everything* at me! Just a fleet in Nth, maybe the army in Ruhr, you demand
Kiel and Mun, or something like that. I could have gone on with my
regularly scheduled progress in the south, you could have gone into the
Med, only with one or two of those northern centers in your pocket instead
of mine. If I'd built F Stp instead, maybe that would be different, but
after all, I have twelve centers! Between you and Austria you have far more
than that. I didn't think you were buying into the observer propaganda that
I was about to win. Did you really think that? It's very far fetched!
> My choices were obvious: work with you and watch
>you grab the 18th center (please don't say you wouldn't have; this game is
>being played at too high a level for me to have afforded to believe that)
(If I could win for sure by stabbing you, I would have stabbed you!)
>and move against you. Since I had no choice but the latter option, it only
>made sense to try to use diplomacy to make my attack as effective as
>possible.
That's what I resented.
I would have hoped that your goal would have been to use diplomacy to
equalize things and get on with the show. Instead, you used it to make
things as bad for me as possible. I hoped that it would be worth while to
you to maintain some good will for the future. Maybe you thought there
would be no future in this game, and maybe you'll turn out to be right
about that! Maybe even a self-fulfilling prophesy.
> You'll notice that, even with my deceptions, it's a guessing game
>in the north. If you still had an army in Denmark, you'd be at the
>advantage, I feel. Surely, if I had tipped my hand, you'd not have convoyed
>that army.
No comment on that.
Let's see what happens now. I think I'll be able to explain my point better
in retrospect.
Or, how about this: you tell me which of my centers you want, I'll give it
to you! (Or would I have to give you two??) And you leave the other ones
alone. Austria keeps Munich, under the circumstances (seems obvious, but
don't tell him! not that he'd believe you, I suppose he doesn't quite know
what's going on) and you get it next year with my blessing. I won't start
throwing all my weight in the north, I'll just leave the units in their
current spheres... and you could resume a Mediterranean attack.
I don't expect you'd agree, though I'd gladly do it. But that's the kind of
thing I had in mind.
Tsar J
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Hm, you know, I guess Dave might order Adr-Ven. Since he doesn't seem to
have anything else to do with the fleet.
So maybe you should either (a) give him something else to do with it (like
suggest that he use F Eas to support you into Aeg, and then he fills in Ion
behind), or (b) wait a year to stab after all, since I bet that fleet will
be the first thing he disbands.
On the other hand, if you just took Gre, you could build A Rom and get Ven
next year whatever he does. Hm, but maybe you don't want another army.
Tough call. I hope you'll attack this year, though.
Cal is very mad because he thinks I've insulted him. I tried to explain
what I meant, but I'm in no mood to apologize.
I blame you. If you weren't so thick-skinned, I would be more apt to
remember how delicate some people can be. Once again, you are an
inconsiderate boor.
No, wait, that's me.
No, I'm not, Cal just thinks I am.
Ok, well one of the remaining powers is an inconsiderate boor, and it may
well be you.
Tsar J
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
We have things to discuss. Jamie will be doing Bul S ION-Gre and
expecting me to take it. He's also expecting me to do Apu-Ven.
What I would rather do, of course, is convoy to Smyrna or something,
but that would bounce. The convoy to Syria is open (and our current
plan) but frankly, I don't think that's a big enough stab of Jamie for
all the prep work I've done.
I'm thinking if there is some way for me to go along with him another
turn or two, I would like to do it. I know your ADR fleet can be dropped
(and will be). How bad is it after that. What can we afford to do in
the way of continuing my inner sanctum position with Jamie, which I
would DEARLY like to do.
Manus
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Sorry about the delay. Got busy there. You were right about an offer
to convoy to Syria. I told him I'd get back to him, still falling all over
myself thanking him for getting the heck off of me.
I'm still deciding what to do, whether to stab him now or wait until his
units are all stacked up against you for maximum effect (no offense).
I'll get back to you as soon as I know more. I hope the deadline isn't
for a while.
Manus
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> ... But, as far as I can tell it won't make a big difference in
> the long run which way you decide to do it.
>
That's what I think as well, and so my decision now is selfish:
how cold do I want the dish of revenge to be when I eat it?
Manus
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>I was saying that I could understand why you felt you had to do
>*something*, but disappointed that you felt the only thing you could do was
>to wreck my position as fully as possible. That there was nothing you could
>see between merrily continuing as though I were no threat, and all-out
>hostilities.
I don't want to make this a long drawn out discussion. Let's just say that
I felt you were big and scary enough that I wasn't going to do anything by
half measures. That isn't the way I play. It's also worth noting that
Austria was VERY clear that he fully intended to throw you the game - a
perfectly reasonable strategy/threat in his position - if I didn't make a
full commitment.
Given that I already knew that turning on you made the most sense for me in
the long and short runs, Austria's position certainly made it an easy
decision.
Cal
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>I'm still deciding what to do, whether to stab him now or wait until his
>units are all stacked up against you for maximum effect (no offense).
If I may help you along a little:
If you stab now, the units just disappear. As I said, he'd be down to three
units in and around Austria (I am supposing that either he loses Mun, so
he's down to three centers if you stab, or he keeps Mun and garrisons it,
so he still has only three units at home). Surely it couldn't be much
easier for you than that, if you were to wait. In fact, I am absolutely
positive that you'd get your booty faster by stabbing now. Maybe speed
isn't important to you at this stage. Hmm. I think it ought to be!
Listen, that really is what I think, and obviously it is what would be
better for me. But, as far as I can tell it won't make a big difference in
the long run which way you decide to do it.
>I'll get back to you as soon as I know more. I hope the deadline isn't
>for a while.
Deadline is Friday. We get movement deadlines on Tuesdays and Fridays only now.
But Hohn will probably get it postponed!
Tsar J
Message from Austria to England in 'pouchtoo':
Hello Cal,
Well, I've looked at the position and despite numerous attempts I
haven't been able to come up with anything better than Boh s Mun,
Mun s Hol - Kie, Ruh s Mun, Hol - Kie. The best moves for Hel and
Nth and Swe are a guess that I'll let you make. With the losses
coming in the south I really need to hold onto Munich and I hope
you agree and will have Ruhr support?
-Dave
Message from Austria to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Hi Manus,
Obviously there is no way that I can have you take two of my centers. If
you do, the front collapses and I might as well offer to puppet to Jamie
as it will be my only hope of survival. As to letting you make the
attempts but blocking them, it's fairly easy to block you in Ven as I
have the fleet in Adriatic doing nothing. It may be possible to do Alb
s Gre as well, but the problem is that this will keep you "in" with Jamie,
but it won't advance our position at all.
As to the convoy to Syria, I think it is a better attack than you are
giving it credit for. Jamies fleet in Aegean has to go to Smyrna.
that means that we will have two units on Smyrna next spring. He'll
have his second fleet in Con, but Ank will also be open to your army
and we can move your fleet in Ionian forward to Aegean.
Right now Jamie is the one bringing up new units. I don't think we
can afford to sit and wait. We have a numerical superiority for the
moment and we have to use it now. Frankly, I don't think Jamie is
going to put too much stock in your working with him and whatever
benefit you might get from it is not worth tactical sacrifices. It's
always hard to choose the "ugly" path when there is an elegant one
available, but sometimes ugly works better!
-Dave
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
I played a harder line than I actually felt. Let's go with the
convoy to Syria, then, and I will tell Jamie that if he wants me
to help him against you, the price will be my Smyrna back.
Hopefully this will keep me "in" with him.
On the other side of the continent, Cal said he was supporting me
into Spain, correct?
Manus
Message from England to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Austria to England in 'pouchtoo':
>Well, I've looked at the position and despite numerous attempts I
>haven't been able to come up with anything better than Boh s Mun,
>Mun s Hol - Kie, Ruh s Mun, Hol - Kie. The best moves for Hel and
>Nth and Swe are a guess that I'll let you make. With the losses
>coming in the south I really need to hold onto Munich and I hope
>you agree and will have Ruhr support?
Well, I'm not fond of holding patterns as such, but I do agree that we have
to staunch the (Austrian) bleeding in order to save the patient. Delivering
the (anti-Russian) anti-toxin will have to wait. I'll make the moves you
suggested and probably flip coins for the northern units.
I'll let you know if I receive any divine inspirations...
Cal
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Ok, so?
Tsar J
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
Ok, well, as you say, no point in dragging out the discussion.
In any case, I *certainly* did not mean anything personal. My apologies if
it came across that way.
See you in, well, who knows? Moscow? :)
Tsar J
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>In any case, I *certainly* did not mean anything personal. My apologies if
>it came across that way.
No problem. I'll apologize as well. This game has burnt me out, I guess.
>See you in, well, who knows? Moscow? :)
I'll take that as an invitation... :)
Cal
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Right now I am leaning toward eating my revenge BEFORE it gets cold....
:-)
Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Ok.
When do you plan to tell me?
I'll order support for Ion-Gre. *Please* let me know if you don't need/want it!
Tsar J
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
In case you've forgotten, the deadline is tonight. And I'll leave my office
(and my only current internet connection) at about 4:15.
Tsar J
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Dave:
Is Albania supporting Greece? I need to know so that I can either
be honest with Jamie, tell him I will convoy to Syria and demand Smyrna
before "helping him eliminate you." If I can be honest with him,
he may double-attack Greece on his own.I don't want that to
succeed, obviously, but only by being honest (and not letting
him offer Bul S ION-GRE and then not take it) can I keep his ear for
next season.
Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Ok, well, my orders are pretty much final now. I'm supporting your F Ion to
Gre. Don't waste it!
Tsar J
Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
I'm not supposed to "diplome" while I'm late, but I think I can apologize
to you; my own lateness is entirely inadvertant. I'd been very
attentive to the game and was frankly shocked to find that I hadn't
put orders in. I can even remember typing them!
Manus
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
See, ya shoulda stuck with me! Now we'll *never* eliminate those
chronically tardy guys.
Tsar J
(I know, I have nothing to say, but I thought we should communicate just
because we're the only ones who are allowed to.)
Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Please have mercy on me. ;-)
Build
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Geez, I don't get it. Can you explain that to me?
Tsar J
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Yeesh.
But, hm, it's not clear what good this is going to do *you*. I guess it's
just revenge!
Tsar J
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
Hmmm. I expected Manus would just grab up the Austrian centers.
This will be kind of interesting after all! I mean, if Manus doesn't play
this just right, you could actually win.
Well, as long as *one* of us wins, I'll be satisfied. ;)
Tsar J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Here's my explanation. After much waffling, I decided that my policy
should be to take advantage of Dave's generosity before slamming him.
The further I can coax him away from me, the better. And if I am
able to grow in the meantime, more's the up-side. Frankly, I'd like
about two more builds (get a little closer to my ally -- Smyrna comes to
mind) before bringing the hammer down on Dave.
As for eliminating Hohn (which I was loath to do and for
which I'll surely be criticized in the EOG's), it theoretically
buys Cal's fleets out of the area, though this remains to be seen.
Manus
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Thanks for the ride. Jamie will build A Sev and move it to Arm, locking
Turkey. I don't see any way we can do anything other than occupy his units.
I would dearly love to get Smyrna, but he'll be able to defend it.
Please let Cal know that if he puts two units on WES, you'll toss Jamie
the game.
Hoping you have some good ideas for the eastern front.
Manus
Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
Sorry, Hohn. I'm sure I'll be roundly criticized in the EOG's, and
perhaps rightly so. I loathed eliminating you, but in theoory it
was the only way to buy Cal into the stop-Jamie coalition and get his
fleets out. This, of course, remains to be seen. (I can read the
EOG's already. :-(
Manus
Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Manus,
> Sorry, Hohn. I'm sure I'll be roundly criticized in the EOG's, and
> perhaps rightly so. I loathed eliminating you, but in theoory it
> was the only way to buy Cal into the stop-Jamie coalition and get his
> fleets out. This, of course, remains to be seen. (I can read the
> EOG's already. :-(
Screw the peanut gallery and the EOG's (if they in fact lambaste you for
this, which I don't think they will). I think you did exactly the right
thing, and I would have done the same in your position. It upgrades
your position from "critical" to "serious" and it puts the board one
step closer to that magical number of three players. It was definitely
the right thing to do, I think. I mean, you'll note that my request for
mercy didn't contain any real, rational arguments. ;-)
My only regrets in this game are that I played too conservatively at
first (probably a holdover effect from my successes in the last game),
when I should have gone with my instincts. And the fact that I didn't
have enough time to devote to the game. Oh, and the fact that I always
seemed to guess wrong when it counted. ;-)
Anyway, take care, and best of luck finishing in the last three.
Hohn
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
I don't know about eliminating Hohn, I think that could have gone either way.
But do you really think you'll get two builds from *me* before you attack
Dave? I don't think so.
I'd be happy to give you Smyrna, frankly, except that I know you'd then
take more, so I can't do it.
I think your problem is going to be that King Kal might come into the Med
before you have arranged everything the way you want it.
See, you've put me in a very tricky position now. I *know* I will lose
centers in the north before the alliance structure changes again, and I
can't see any particular reason to lose them in the south, too. So it seems
to me that I have to just allow King Kal to grow until you can't wait any
longer to protect your west flank. (Not 'allow', exactly, since that
implies that I could do something about it, more just 'wait'.) Can you see
any alternative? That sort of brinksmanship makes me nervous, so I'd prefer
an alternative. But I don't see one.
I will not let on to Kal that this is my approach, since I don't want him
trying to penetrate the stalemate line, I'd rather have him just trying to
figure out how he can take Scandinavia and Berlin and Stp.
Tsar J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Well, I'm looking at things and I realize things are tough.
However, I really had no choice. Dave has done what he needed
to do, in that he has threatened to throw the game to you if
either Cal or I cross him. He can do it, and (no offense) I
don't want him to.
My only play from this point is that if Cal hits the Med,
Dave throws you the game, and I have to make it possible for
him to do this. In fact, I will help as well, now that I
am in a position to do so again.
I know it's brinksmanship, but I'm on the brink because Dave
has put me there. I have to tread a fine line for a while.
If I had hit Dave last year, I am convinced he would have been
able to use his dying breath to give you the solo.
Unfortunately, being on the brink has kept me from being able
to set up any kind of line yet in the west, and only the fact
that (I hope) Cal respects Dave's power to end it all is keeping
me going. Like I say, if he doesn't, Dave and I will both give
you the solo.
If I could get a couple more units, I would not feel like I am
so high over a barrel. That is why I brought up the subject of
Smyrna. I've never been happy with your fleets in the south,
so if there is a way for me to grow to the point where Dave's
threat can be disposed of, I would appreciate it if perhaps it
could be combined with a removal of a white fleet or two.
I know I'm in no position to dictate anything, but I'm just
looking for the best advantage I can find and hoping you and
Cal give me what I need to be the third in a three-way.
If Cal doesn't, let me just say that I will truly enjoy handing
the game to you. It'll be fun. Honest.
Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Interesting.
Dave can't hand me the game, and I'm trying to figure out why you think he can.
I would have to get all of Dave's centers except Venice, and including
Munich, and lose *none* in the north.
This is pretty obviously impossible.
Did you have any particular 18 in mind for me, or was it just that Dave and
I have more than 18 between us?
I don't believe he'd try it. He did threaten me that he was going to throw
the game to England, but he didn't even feint in that direction. He hasn't
spoken to me since then, which presumably he'd do if he was entertaining
any notion of maybe throwing it to me. Well, maybe he wouldn't. But I'll
make a bet with you right now. I bet that King Kal will enter the Med,
probably not this coming year but the next one, and that Kaiser Dave will
*not* attempt to throw the game to me.
Anyway, supposing that *is* Dave's whole game plan, it's pretty clear that
he isn't going to be trying to get you any centers. In fact, I will be
surprised if he keeps that F Eas.
>I know I'm in no position to dictate anything, but I'm just
>looking for the best advantage I can find and hoping you and
>Cal give me what I need to be the third in a three-way.
Cal is not very interested in a 3-way now, I think. He can have it easily
if he wants it, he doesn't need to give you anything.
I offered. I even entered the order. I'm not going to give you any of my
centers now.
I'm definitely not going to disband any southern fleets next year when I
disband. In fact, at the moment I am planning to build F Sev. I guess you
expect that I'm big enough that I can afford to throw you bones, and I am,
but your dog looks too mean right now! Giving you centers appears to be the
only way I could actually lose my shirt.
It might have been different if you'd suggested this before. It doesn't
sound too implausible. For instance, I could have taken Greece while you
convoyed to Syria, then I'd be happy. Or I could have taken Serbia, either
way. But I'd have to be a real sucker to give up southern centers in this
situation. That's my bank account. As long as I have that big cache of
southern centers, I can't lose unless someone does something dumb. Do you
understand this? I'd let King Kal run right up to the stalemate line first.
Ok, well, I'll be interested to see what you do.
I now have no secrets! It's a liberating feeling.
Tsar J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Well, I'm sorry to hear I'm not worth a bone or two. As for me, I'll
do my best to keep Cal out and survive to a three-way, but from your
last letter, I get the impression you are not much interested in seeing
this happen anymore. I'll have to give more time to your letter and
process it when I am a bit less depressed by it.
Manus
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
Hmmmmmmm.
I did grow by a center this year, but I am very confident :-) that I'll be
on the decline now. Come on, you know it. 1907 is all tactics, no play left
in the diplomatic situation for this year at least. And since it's
everybody against Russia, well, my delusions of grandeur don't extend
*that* far.
So here's the thing. You've eliminated that A Kie, and when you take more
centers I will disband *at least* one more northern unit.
It's too early for any rapprochement, but at that point the course of the
game would be more or less up to you. (And me, I guess, but I know what I'm
going to do so from my perspective it's up to you.) I *think* that if you
kept blasting away in the north, we'd finish in a pretty dull draw.
(Possibly Manus and Dave would neglect to guard Gibraltar, or would let you
into Central Europe, so you could get to 18. I wouldn't have thought so,
but either I am confused about Manus's thinking here, or his thinking is a
bit confused.) On the other hand, if you then tried poking right into the
Med., keeping a healthy defense in the north of course, it could be a horse
race. And I think you'd have a lead, too.
I love dull draws when I'm the guy who had two centers left in 1904, but I
hate them when I'm the guy who had 13 in '06.
Tsar J
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>Well, I'm sorry to hear I'm not worth a bone or two.
Well, that's basically right. Now that I understand your position, I don't
see how it could be to my advantage for you to take centers of mine.
> As for me, I'll
>do my best to keep Cal out and survive to a three-way, but from your
>last letter, I get the impression you are not much interested in seeing
>this happen anymore.
I tried as hard as I could. I passed up a move that would have kept Austria
out of Serbia because you wanted me to support you to Greece. And if you'd
just played straight, you would now have seven centers. But there is a
limit, after all. I'm not going to give away the farm, and I'm kind of
surprised you would think I might.
> I'll have to give more time to your letter and
>process it when I am a bit less depressed by it.
Ok.
Just to save you the trouble, I will not accept any plan that involves you
taking Moscow in exchange for blockading Gibraltar.
Tsar J
Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
Cal:
I've committed to the east, and to be blunt, I'd like to see you refrain
>from putting anything in MAO. If you put two units against either Spain
or the Western Med, I will have to consider tossing in with Dave and folding
for Jamie. I'll convoy him to Naples and Tunis and all that.
Jamie isn't even interested in giving me Smyrna to get me to turn on Dave.
This has made me, well, pretty angry with him. And he's going to drop
yet another fleet at Sev.
So if you simply refrain from attacking me until I say it's okay to, you
can count on me to be concentrated against Jamie and you can also count on
me to say, "okay, come get me Cal" as soon as giving you the game to keep
it from Jamie is the only way.
Manus
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Well, you're not making any extra points, though throwing your
size around at me does give you the right to be a bit sarcastic.
I won't be asking for Moscow. However, you didn't ask
for Smyrna from me, did you? At least I asked.
Thanks for the extra fleet trouble down here. (Not sarcasm,
really; more like a little bitterness, I suppose.)
Yes, I should have told you which way the wind was going to blow
so you wouldn't have wasted a support. I might have apologized,
but I don't think I'll use this message to do it.
Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Look, you've just stabbed me, and now you're asking me to give you my
centers. I think I'm entitled to a little sarcasm.
Let me just go check to see what *I* wrote after I stabbed *you* Huh. Yeah,
that's how I remembered it.
So, you think I shouldn't build F Sev? Why not? Is a Moscow army going to
help me more?
I am being attacked on every front, by every power in the game. I can't
defend myself in the north. I can either just give away centers all over,
as you seem to think is my best bet, or I can try to defend myself as well
as I can in the south. Isn't F Sev the most effective unit to do that?
Tsar J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Well, I didn't mean to start any press-aggression. Honest. I imagine I
just need some time to think, I suppose. I'm sorry if you consider what
I did a stab. I won't try to defend it, because you'll likely keep calling
it that. If I didn't thank you for apologizing after stabbing me, I
apologize. If I ever have a chance to stab you, I'll be sure to return
the favor. :-)
I don't think this will happen, though (unless you consider my convoy to
Syria a stab, in which case, I'm sorry). It was go with Dave or watch
the game fall apart. I chose the convoy, hoping you and I could come to
some arrangement after. Having decided on the convoy, I didn't tell you
because I didn't want you going to 14 while I got only Spain. To be
honest, I didn't think to ask for a convoy straight to Smyrna so that
we both got a new dot, because even if you had said yes (as you say you
would have) I would have had to convince Dave to convoy me to Smyrna instead
of Syria and he'd wonder how I even thought it would succeed, and then he'd
protect Greece. So it would have made no real big difference and I'd have
lost Dave's ear.
Maybe I missed the critical tempo and should have stabbed him. Maybe now
Cal can rush around and finish me off while you take Dave out. Could
very well be. If so, I bozo'ed. In fact, if we're taking bets, I would
put money on me having bozo'ed.
Build what you wish, of course, and if I drove you to putting three
fleets into the Med, I'll blame only myself for my predicament.
Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Let's see, you convince me to use a unit to support a move that you don't
make, and you convoy an army where it can do nothing except attack me....
Yeah, I think that would count as a stab!
I do not believe that Dave would throw the game, and I don't believe he
could do it if he tried.
>Build what you wish, of course, and if I drove you to putting three
>fleets into the Med, I'll blame only myself for my predicament.
Yeesh.
Look, if things go the way *I* want them to go, you will be part of a
three-way draw. I want Austria out as soon as possible, and if you'll let
me I'll get him out. I'd give you *any* of the Austrian centers that I
could manage to give you, at any time. If, for example, England took a
couple of my northern centers this year, and I could manage to get
something away from Austria, I imagine that would pretty convincingly
remove any 'throwaway' threat Dave had. With any sort of show of good faith
on your part, I would reconsider my unit removal plans, too. But I wouldn't
expect any such show this year.
You do what you need to do. But if you don't make good and sure that you
can hold Tunis against an English assault, well, I may join you in the EOG
in blaming yourself.
Tsar J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
:-)
You've made a good case. What I'll do from here is unsure,
but my wish is for the three way so if I do something that
will harm my chances for that, I'll be screwing up. Your
contention is I may already have screwed up. You may be right.
Anyway, know that as I read your most recent mail, I broke
into a big smile. Maybe it's just late at night. :-)
Manus
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
> Hmmm. I expected Manus would just grab up the Austrian centers.
I dunno. From what I was hearing, anti-Russian paranoia was running
pretty high among central powers...
> This will be kind of interesting after all! I mean, if Manus doesn't play
> this just right, you could actually win.
> Well, as long as *one* of us wins, I'll be satisfied. ;)
Hmmm, is that an offer? :)
Cal
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
> Hmmmmmmm.
>
> I did grow by a center this year, but I am very confident :-) that I'll be
> on the decline now. Come on, you know it. 1907 is all tactics, no play left
> in the diplomatic situation for this year at least. And since it's
> everybody against Russia, well, my delusions of grandeur don't extend
> *that* far.
Hey, I wasn't arguing... ;)
> So here's the thing. You've eliminated that A Kie, and when you take more
> centers I will disband *at least* one more northern unit.
I'd certainly appreciate that.
> It's too early for any rapprochement, but at that point the course of the
> game would be more or less up to you. (And me, I guess, but I know what I'm
> going to do so from my perspective it's up to you.) I *think* that if you
> kept blasting away in the north, we'd finish in a pretty dull draw.
> (Possibly Manus and Dave would neglect to guard Gibraltar, or would let you
> into Central Europe, so you could get to 18. I wouldn't have thought so,
> but either I am confused about Manus's thinking here, or his thinking is a
> bit confused.) On the other hand, if you then tried poking right into the
> Med., keeping a healthy defense in the north of course, it could be a
> horse race. And I think you'd have a lead, too.
>
> I love dull draws when I'm the guy who had two centers left in 1904, but I
> hate them when I'm the guy who had 13 in '06.
So basically, what you're saying is that, if I lay off of you, you'll take
out your anger and frustration on the south and settle for finishing
second to my 18 centre win? Somehow, I find that sounds better if I have
a strong saline taste in my mouth. I KNOW you aren't the kind of player
who gives THAT easily (I was in ghodstoo as well, y'know).
Perhaps I'll believe what you're saying further on in the game, but for
now it's in my best interest to continue on the northern path.
FWIW though, I don't see it as being in my best interest to see you
TOTALLY eliminated. Balance-of-power thing, you know. If you die (or
even go down TOO fast) and A/I get strong faster than I would like.
I'm going to continue as I am and then evaluate the situation next year.
Fair enough?
Cal
Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
> Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
> I've committed to the east, and to be blunt, I'd like to see you refrain
> from putting anything in MAO. If you put two units against either Spain
> or the Western Med, I will have to consider tossing in with Dave and folding
> for Jamie. I'll convoy him to Naples and Tunis and all that.
Fair enough, but I have to point out you DID move to Western Med... :)
> Jamie isn't even interested in giving me Smyrna to get me to turn on Dave.
> This has made me, well, pretty angry with him. And he's going to drop
> yet another fleet at Sev.
>
> So if you simply refrain from attacking me until I say it's okay to, you
> can count on me to be concentrated against Jamie and you can also count on
> me to say, "okay, come get me Cal" as soon as giving you the game to keep
> it from Jamie is the only way.
I can live with that. Naturally, Jamie has sent me a note asking me to
leave him alone in the north in return for what amounts to "future
considerations". I told him straight out I wasn't about to reverse myself
and head to the Med. NOT in my best interest
Okay, I'll stay out of the Mid Atlantic and we all keep going as we are
now and we see how it plays out. Next year, I'm sure we'll all
re-evaluate, but til then, we're copascetic. Ok?
Cal
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
I wasn't saying that I'd be happy to be second place to your win!
I meant, I would like to have the game come down to a race between us, and
if you had a head start that would be ok, as long as I had a reasonable
chance too. In other words, I'd trade some share in a large draw for a less
than .5 chance of winning. About .4 would be nice!
Yes, anti-Russian paranoia is strong among the central powers. Among others!
Anyway, I agree, you will of course continue with your plans this year, and
re-evaluate next year. I will attempt to arrange things so that your
re-evaluation could reasonably be more favorable to me.
Tsar J
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
> I wasn't saying that I'd be happy to be second place to your win!
Damn! :)
> I meant, I would like to have the game come down to a race between us,
and
> if you had a head start that would be ok, as long as I had a reasonable
> chance too. In other words, I'd trade some share in a large draw for a
less
> than .5 chance of winning. About .4 would be nice!
> Yes, anti-Russian paranoia is strong among the central powers. Among
others!
> Anyway, I agree, you will of course continue with your plans this year,
and
> re-evaluate next year. I will attempt to arrange things so that your
> re-evaluation could reasonably be more favorable to me.
I have no problem with that, but probably not for the reasons you might be
thinking. I've looked over my position and, while I'm in a good enough
position to at least dream of an 18 centre win, the true strategic
situation and the calibre of players we have make it unlikely (insert
'sigh' here) which means that *I* will probably be looking for allies in a
few seasons as we play out the Calhamerian aspects of a really hard fought
game.
I'm sure we'll be talking again.
Cal
Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
> Fair enough, but I have to point out you DID move to Western Med... :)
>
My plan is to convoy Spain to Tunis, and then to Turkey. Don't know
how soon I'll do it is all.
> I can live with that. Naturally, Jamie has sent me a note asking me to
> leave him alone in the north in return for what amounts to "future
> considerations". I told him straight out I wasn't about to reverse myself
> and head to the Med. NOT in my best interest
>
Thank heavens.
> Okay, I'll stay out of the Mid Atlantic and we all keep going as we are
> now and we see how it plays out. Next year, I'm sure we'll all
> re-evaluate, but til then, we're copascetic. Ok?
>
Sounds good to me. Jamie pretty much has the south locked down, and
it will probably stay that way until you make some gains up there, so
godspeed....
Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
I'm softening a little.
I don't know yet what I'm going to do, either. However, it seems to me now
that I do actually have two choices. I could (a) try to make as much
trouble as I can in the south, and try to get the invasion of my northern
realms over as quickly as possible, to force you to turn west and block
King Kal, or (b) vice versa, try to hold out as long and hard as I can in
the north, and get my southern travails over with as soon as possible.
(b) would, as far as I can tell, mean getting centers away from Austria and
having you satisfied. If I decide I can do that pretty quickly, I might try
(b).
If you still had that army on the Boot, I would definitely go with (b). As
things stand, I can't see how you're ever going to attack Austria without
giving him far too much advance notice. But, if I could take, say, two
units from Austria (just as good if King Kal takes Munich, but given your
report I suppose he won't do that), Dave's threat might be rendered
toothless. Hm. That's not going to be quick!
Well, we'll see.
Ooh, I just got an idea. Now I have to go work out whether it really makes
sense.
Tsar J
Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
> Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in
'pouchtoo':
> My plan is to convoy Spain to Tunis, and then to Turkey. Don't know
> how soon I'll do it is all.
Unless I can find a better use for F Bre, I'll use it to bounce F Por out
of the Mid. Just for my peace of mind and just until F Wes goes somewhere
else. Fair enough?
> > Okay, I'll stay out of the Mid Atlantic and we all keep going as we are
> > now and we see how it plays out. Next year, I'm sure we'll all
> > re-evaluate, but til then, we're copascetic. Ok?
> >
> Sounds good to me. Jamie pretty much has the south locked down, and
> it will probably stay that way until you make some gains up there, so
> godspeed....
I'll do my bestest, Festus. :)
Cal
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> Yeesh.
>
> But, hm, it's not clear what good this is going to do *you*. I guess it's
> just revenge!
>
Well, what did you expect me to do, roll over and play dead?
Yes, revenge is a part of it, and of course that fact that I said you
were doing it too earlyl and that I'd make you pay for that. Have to
live up to my promises you know (<:. Really though, that is not a
major part of my reasoning. Due to your stab,
my goals for the game have changed slightly, they are now:
1) A solo Austrian win
2) Any draw including Austria
3) Any outcome not including Russia
4) Anything else
As you might guess, 3 is a new addition (<:. But, as you can see, it's still
way down on the list.
As to my actions, what choice have you given me? I can't hold out alone
against you, and have no interest in being your toady as that just leads
to option 4. So, I need to hold you off. That means I need Italian
help. That means I need you distracted in the north. That means I don't
want England distracting Italy. That means I help England take your dots.
Where does it lead. Well, if you don't back off soon enough, it probably
leads to an English win. Not good, but better than a Russian win at the
moment. And, just to make the stakes clear, I'd rather see an English
solo than an E/R draw, so if I have to I'll do what I can to make it easy
for him.
On the other hand, any finish that includes Austria among the winners (that
means in the draw, not just a survivor!) is still the preferred choice. As
I see it now, England is going to grab all of Scandinavia, then he'll hit
Italy for Iberia and the rest of France putting him to about 14. From there
he needs to come into the Med or take some from you. If you wait too long,
he's going to be very hard to stop, and as mentioned, if it looks like
your going to head for the two way I'll do whatever I can to throw him
centers and ruin that play.
What do I want? Obvious. Back off, give me back Bud and we can consider
how things might play out. Manus and I have no play if there is a stable
evenly growing E/R and we know it, so we play the dangerous game of
introducing as much instability as we can, and instability of course means
that we tilt the balance so one of you has the chance to win and the
other has to work with us to prevent it. Of course, if we keep switching
back and forth we'll get weaker and weaker and thus lose our bargaining
position. On the other hand, as that happens the swings will keep bringing
one of you closer and closer to the win, thus making the whole thing
more dangerous.
I think you are going to have to make a move sooner or later. You can't
ignore England's growth, and if you just keep on pushing in the south I
think we'll see an English win. If you want to consider another course
of action, I'm more than willing. The first steps of course are to
leave Bud and shift some forces north. I do NOT hold grudges and would
happily accept a finish that included both A and R. Only if A is not
in the ending does the elimination of R become a goal. Strange as it
sounds, consider that having a reasonably strong A on your side might
be more useful than waiting to long. Right now there are only two
English armies and the old AIR could have some fun in France. Might be
worth trading some territory back? AIR isn't as nice as a solo, but
it still beats letting England win!
If you think we have any basis for discussion, let me know.
Kaiser D
P.S. I haven't been ignoring you, just very very busy.
Message from Austria to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Nothing brilliant yet. I'm still trying to decide what to disband. I
think A Boh has to go, and then maybe the fleet in Tri. We may have
a shot at Smyrna if we do the following in the spring:
Syr - Arm, Ion - Aeg, Eas s Ion - Aeg.
If Jamie supports Smyrna then you are in the Aeg and now we have three
units on Smyrna. If you get into Arm, all the better!
What do you think about your build? I'm assuming fleet Naples at this
point given the threats to you will come by sea?
Dave
> Thanks for the ride. Jamie will build A Sev and move it to Arm, locking
> Turkey. I don't see any way we can do anything other than occupy his units.
> I would dearly love to get Smyrna, but he'll be able to defend it.
>
> Please let Cal know that if he puts two units on WES, you'll toss Jamie
> the game.
>
> Hoping you have some good ideas for the eastern front.
>
> Manus
>
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
So there you are!
>As to my actions, what choice have you given me?
More choices than I wanted to give you, I'm afraid.
> I can't hold out alone
>against you, and have no interest in being your toady as that just leads
>to option 4. So, I need to hold you off. That means I need Italian
>help. That means I need you distracted in the north. That means I don't
>want England distracting Italy. That means I help England take your dots.
Of course.
(As to "what choice...?", the funny thing is that all four of us feel that
we've been given no choice!)
>As I see it now, England is going to grab all of Scandinavia, then he'll hit
>Italy for Iberia and the rest of France putting him to about 14.
I agree, though I think he'll try to take Berlin, Munich, and Stp too. So I
count 17. :-)
> From there
>he needs to come into the Med or take some from you. If you wait too long,
>he's going to be very hard to stop, and as mentioned, if it looks like
>your going to head for the two way I'll do whatever I can to throw him
>centers and ruin that play.
The two-way!! In my dreams.
Yeah, I'm aware of all this. It's just that I think that if I start giving
you centers, you'll just keep taking more. And I know King Kal will keep
taking centers, and I will not be able to stop him. So, I can decide to be
a tiny power, giving up centers on every front, or I can fight like hell to
hold on in the south. So that's what I'm going to do.
> If you want to consider another course
>of action, I'm more than willing. The first steps of course are to
>leave Bud and shift some forces north.
Shift forces north?? What are you talking about? Like, A Fin? I'll be glad
to send my F Smy out to the MAO, of course. ;-)
> I do NOT hold grudges and would
>happily accept a finish that included both A and R.
Oh, so would I.
One way the game could end is if King Kal starts sailing for the Med. very
soon. That would force the rest of us to end hostilities. I would cease
fire unilaterally, so we don't need any agreement about it!
Somehow (I think) you've managed to convince the others that *I* am the
threat to win. (I don't think they'll believe that much longer, by the
way.) Naturally, you also need me to think that England is the threat to
win. Well, don't bother, I already think so. The problem, for you anyway,
is that I don't see how giving you centers will reduce the English threat.
It just gives you more leverage.
You know, though, I think Cal is tired of the game. Maybe he'll sail south
knowing well that that will be the end of the game. Maybe he'll be happy to
get out with a share of a four-way.
We'll see!
Tsar J
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> So there you are!
>
As I said, I'd been busy and my gaming has sufferred. After my "vacation"
(where it rained every day and the kids got sick), the god of appliances
had a grievance with me. My washing machine, stove, fridge and air conditioner
all went out the week we got back. The washing machine flooded the house,
causing mold and mildew, and then chemicals to get rid of them that forced
us to live in the camper in the backyard for four days. The stove gave a
good shot at starting a fire and burning the whole house down, but we got
lucky and it never quite caught. etc. etc. etc.
>
> >As to my actions, what choice have you given me?
>
> More choices than I wanted to give you, I'm afraid.
>
Yeah, it's a minor victory to be proven right about that attack being too
early. I do enjoy showing what a pain in the arse I can be, but there's
a lot of other options that I'd prefer. (How's that for a straight line?)
> (As to "what choice...?", the funny thing is that all four of us feel that
> we've been given no choice!)
>
More on that in a moment.
>
> >As I see it now, England is going to grab all of Scandinavia, then he'll hit
> >Italy for Iberia and the rest of France putting him to about 14.
>
> I agree, though I think he'll try to take Berlin, Munich, and Stp too. So I
> count 17. :-)
>
Me too, but I figured you'd fight for those with a better chance.
> Yeah, I'm aware of all this. It's just that I think that if I start giving
> you centers, you'll just keep taking more. And I know King Kal will keep
> taking centers, and I will not be able to stop him. So, I can decide to be
> a tiny power, giving up centers on every front, or I can fight like hell to
> hold on in the south. So that's what I'm going to do.
>
Well, this is my biggest problem with the current situation. Which is that
you have consistently misjudged my intentions. Perhaps by now you realize
that I no longer "have" to say that I wasn't gearing up to attack you when
you hit. The fact is that I wasn't. I planned on taking out Italy and
making a run for MAO first and then seeing where it went. I'm not saying
I wouldn't have taken a shot at the solo, but I was favoring the AR over
the EA. It was safer, more feasible and we had a better history of working
together in the game.
Again in the current situation you are not reading my intentions correctly.
What would I gain out of continuing to attack you if you backed off? An
English solo! Unfortunately we have not played together before or you'd
know that I am more than capable of reforging and alliance with a former
ally who has stabbed me and of sticking with it. I just finished a Colonia
game where I had to re-ally twice with the same player before he and I
won a two-way!
> > If you want to consider another course
> >of action, I'm more than willing. The first steps of course are to
> >leave Bud and shift some forces north.
>
> Shift forces north?? What are you talking about? Like, A Fin? I'll be glad
> to send my F Smy out to the MAO, of course. ;-)
>
> > I do NOT hold grudges and would
> >happily accept a finish that included both A and R.
>
> Oh, so would I.
>
> One way the game could end is if King Kal starts sailing for the Med. very
> soon. That would force the rest of us to end hostilities. I would cease
> fire unilaterally, so we don't need any agreement about it!
>
> Somehow (I think) you've managed to convince the others that *I* am the
> threat to win. (I don't think they'll believe that much longer, by the
> way.) Naturally, you also need me to think that England is the threat to
> win. Well, don't bother, I already think so. The problem, for you anyway,
> is that I don't see how giving you centers will reduce the English threat.
> It just gives you more leverage.
>
> You know, though, I think Cal is tired of the game. Maybe he'll sail south
> knowing well that that will be the end of the game. Maybe he'll be happy to
> get out with a share of a four-way.
>
Well, before you write off my possible contributions think of the effect of
Mun - Bur! Lots of fun to be had there. What giving me a center or two
does is reduce the threat from you and increase the threat from England,
thus encouraging Italy for example to swing everything to the west. As to
who is the threat to the win, of course I had to concentrate on you, you
were the one trying to wipe me out. The only they that can be convinced
in the other direction is Manus and believe me that we have both talked
long on this subject and are aware of the threat from England as well.
Of course if you keep all our forces locked up against you, we won't have
much to do anything about it with.
So, please consider again. We could have some fun for this. On the other
hand, I don't see much hope for better than being in a draw myself, so,
since you raised the issue, Will you vote for a 4-way draw if I propose
it now that we have eliminated the French?
Kaiser D
Message from Austria to England in 'pouchtoo':
Hi Cal,
This might be a bit presumptuous in my position, but given that I don't
see any hope for any better out of the game than this anyway, and your
current feelings about Dip and perhaps this game in particular, what would
be your reaction to a 4-way draw?
Kaiser D
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Oooh, this is great!
I just wrote a filter that is supposed to color all press from you with a
red label, and it works!
>Yeah, it's a minor victory to be proven right about that attack being too
>early.
Well, we'll discuss this later.
As a matter of fact, it did turn out that way, but so far I believe that
the only reason my stab turned out to be too early is that Cal bungled up
his Mediterranean entree. (Probably involving sun dried tomatoes and
olives, don't all Mediterranean entrees use those?)
>Well, this is my biggest problem with the current situation. Which is that
>you have consistently misjudged my intentions. Perhaps by now you realize
>that I no longer "have" to say that I wasn't gearing up to attack you when
>you hit. The fact is that I wasn't. I planned on taking out Italy and
>making a run for MAO first and then seeing where it went. I'm not saying
>I wouldn't have taken a shot at the solo, but I was favoring the AR over
>the EA. It was safer, more feasible and we had a better history of working
>together in the game.
Yeah. Ok, I believe you. Too bad! But I still do think it was mainly bad
*luck* for me.
As I said, we can discuss this stuff later.
>Again in the current situation you are not reading my intentions correctly.
>What would I gain out of continuing to attack you if you backed off? An
>English solo!
Well, you would gain more centers.
Of course, if England went for the Med., you would have to stop. Same here!
But as long as he doesn't, I figure you'll engorge your position, if you
get a chance.
>Well, before you write off my possible contributions think of the effect of
>Mun - Bur! Lots of fun to be had there.
True.
And Manus has similar possibilities in France.
Yes, you guys could kick the crap out of him in France. And yes, that would
be fun. I would enjoy seeing those fleets go swinging back west again, like
pendulums, back and forth, back and forth. Nothing makes you feel quite so
silly!
> What giving me a center or two
>does is reduce the threat from you and increase the threat from England,
>thus encouraging Italy for example to swing everything to the west.
Hm. That's a good point, actually.
>So, please consider again. We could have some fun for this. On the other
>hand, I don't see much hope for better than being in a draw myself, so,
>since you raised the issue, Will you vote for a 4-way draw if I propose
>it now that we have eliminated the French?
Oh, sure, I will. Propose it.
But let's see....
You just want Budapest, huh? I can keep Rum and Bul? Manus would certainly
want at least one center too. I bet you'd give me Kiel, too.
I dunno, Dave, it's tempting, but I just have this feeling it would come
back and bite me later. Or sooner.
Let's see, let's see. I think I would essentially be making it an
approximately even four-way game. England would be the biggest, but we all
know *that's* a dubious advantage! What are my chances now? I can't really
tell. I think they are still pretty good chances for a draw share, but not
for a win, certainly.
My instinct tells me not to do it.
On the other hand, it would be a lot more *interesting*. :) And it's a demo
game....
Tsar J
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> But let's see....
> You just want Budapest, huh? I can keep Rum and Bul? Manus would certainly
> want at least one center too. I bet you'd give me Kiel, too.
> I dunno, Dave, it's tempting, but I just have this feeling it would come
> back and bite me later. Or sooner.
>
That's the fun/frustrating part of Diplomacy. You can't ever make the
other guy know what's really in your mind. I see no point in "engorging"
my position. More centers don't do any good unless they improve my
position. I don't care if I have 3 or 15 if I'm in a draw it's a draw.
On the other hand, I'm not going to change strategy just to leave you
in a position where you can slam me again once you've forced England back.
I look at it like this: There is no way I can see where I can eliminate
Russia without there being an English win. Therefore, there's no
purpose in trying to wipe you out. If there is an AR, then I see no
way the others can achieve a win without us, so that is good for me.
If you won't work with me, then I don't see that I have much chance, so
I have to pump up England until you will work with me. If you still
that's too late then at least I can go for option 3 over 4.
You've got to stop thinking that there is any reason that I hold anything
against you. This is a game. Stabbing is part of the game. You took
a shot at it. So what? That's water under the bridge now. My interest
is in being in the final draw. I've allied with far worse than you my
friend to achieve that! (<:.
Kaiser D
Message from England to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
> Hi Cal,
>
> This might be a bit presumptuous in my position, but given that I don't
> see any hope for any better out of the game than this anyway, and your
> current feelings about Dip and perhaps this game in particular, what
would
> be your reaction to a 4-way draw?
Not good, although I admit it may come to that. I certainly wouldn't vote
for it now as I think this game has a lot more play in it than just a
4-way.
How hard do you want to hit Russia this year? I can see a chance of taking
quite a few centres off him. Most of them would be up north although that
brilliant convoy move of yours and Manus's may cost him even more.
Specifically, if you support A Kie-Ber we could guarantee taking at least
two off him. Interested?
Cal
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
>That's the fun/frustrating part of Diplomacy. You can't ever make the
>other guy know what's really in your mind. I see no point in "engorging"
>my position. More centers don't do any good unless they improve my
>position. I don't care if I have 3 or 15 if I'm in a draw it's a draw.
>On the other hand, I'm not going to change strategy just to leave you
>in a position where you can slam me again once you've forced England back.
Come on now, Dave.
You wouldn't accept a deal where I just stop attacking and don't return
Budapest, right? So you certainly do prefer to . So I assume you prefer
to either of those. And the reasons
are obvious: security, better chances if the whole game gets shuffled,
lower chances of Russia breaking out to a victory in case England does
something dumb, etc.
>You've got to stop thinking that there is any reason that I hold anything
>against you.
I don't think that. I think that except for your preference that I not
share in any draw in which you do not share, you will play for your own
advantage. It's just that I think it is to your advantage to take another
center or two from me if I hand over Budapest.
> I've allied with far worse than you my
>friend to achieve that! (<:.
Hey, thanks!
Tsar J
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Got any last thoughts for me? I'm about to enter my adjustment orders.
I've had interesting discussions with King Kal and Kaiser Dave (!). Dave
says that if I return Budapest and fight in the north, we can be at peace.
I'm not sure whether you would like that, I suspect you would. The two of
you could have fun in France, I bet.
I don't know, though. My gut feeling is that you and Dave would take more
centers than I gave. If I lose northern centers and more than a couple of
southern ones, I'm going to be in serious trouble. (My guts are very
conservative. I'm trying to talk to them, but you know how conservatives
are.)
Tsar J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> Got any last thoughts for me? I'm about to enter my adjustment orders.
>
Sadly, no. I'll probably build a fleet either to keep Cal out in the
east or you out in the west. I just dfon't know.
> I've had interesting discussions with King Kal and Kaiser Dave (!). Dave
> says that if I return Budapest and fight in the north, we can be at peace.
> I'm not sure whether you would like that, I suspect you would. The two of
> you could have fun in France, I bet.
>
The game is certainly in a big state of flux now. I fear I missed my
chance by crossing you up. If you make friends with Dave (and -- not
wishing to open a can orf worms, but it crossed my mind -- maybe cut
a similar deal with me on the return of some formerly Italian centers),
who knows where the cards will fall.
> I don't know, though. My gut feeling is that you and Dave would take more
> centers than I gave. If I lose northern centers and more than a couple of
> southern ones, I'm going to be in serious trouble. (My guts are very
> conservative. I'm trying to talk to them, but you know how conservatives
> are.)
>
I didn't read this paragraph before writing mine. I do understand your
conservativeness, and if a shift in direction is to occur, I wouldn't
want you to be uncomfortable in promoting it.
Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
I'm in a good mood, because I wrote a filter yesterday to label incoming
POUCHTOO press, and it works. Funny I never thought about it before. Now
all mail I get that includes the line
" Message from [email protected] as Italy to Russia in
'pouchtoo':"
gets colored green. Cool.
>Sadly, no. I'll probably build a fleet either to keep Cal out in the
>east or you out in the west.
You might think about getting a new compass first.
> I just dfon't know.
Well, neither dfo I.
Ok, well, if you go Ion-Aeg and Nap-Ion, I'll understand. Just remember
what I told you about your grave responsibility for keeping Dave from
winning!
>The game is certainly in a big state of flux now. I fear I missed my
>chance by crossing you up. If you make friends with Dave (and -- not
>wishing to open a can orf worms, but it crossed my mind -- maybe cut
>a similar deal with me on the return of some formerly Italian centers),
>who knows where the cards will fall.
Yeah. To me, that's the *problem*. Some of them might fall on my head.
I guess cards don't hurt too much. Though I have a modem card that could be
rather painful.
>I didn't read this paragraph before writing mine. I do understand your
>conservativeness, and if a shift in direction is to occur, I wouldn't
>want you to be uncomfortable in promoting it.
Yeah, I bet you wouldn't.
Ok, well, don't be surprised to see F Sev. But contrary to my earlier
insistence, I am not totally sure I'm going to try too hard to keep you out
of Smyrna. I thought of a couple of ideas. They aren't good for Dave,
though. We'll have to discuss them carefully before the next round.
Tsar J
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
I'm going to build F Sev.
I know this violates our earlier agreement, but under the circumstances I
felt it necessary. :)
Tsar J
p.s. My orders are in, but not everyone's are. Who do you figure? It will
be interesting to see what Dave removes. I have no doubt about Manus's
build, of course. I know you won't build in Lvp, and I figure you'll
probably do one army and one fleet, and it won't make a lot of difference
which one is in London.
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Last updated on Wed, July 21, 1999.
