| Press for Spring of 1908 in pouchtoo |
Movement
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
He removed the fleet. So, talk. Tsar J
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
I see by your builds that you have no intention of changing directions. :-( I'll have to think much more carefully about my plans now. Tsar J
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Oooh, I hadn't noticed: Cal built just what he needs to try for the win. I was sure he'd build F Lvp, and hoping he'd build a second fleet. Now I'm back on the fence. I'll have to think hard about this again. Tsar J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> He removed the fleet. > Ree-hah! > So, talk. > Will do. I hope to get some solid Dip time this afternoon.... Manus
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Possibly my retreat to Tyo and subsequent debuilds puzzled you. The retreat to Tyo looks hostile. I did that because I still wasn't sure of my situation, and retreating to Tyo is flexible, the army there has many possible uses. The debuilds look friendly. I did those because I am just about convinced that you are correct. Glad you removed your fleet, too; though I hope we have enough fleets among us to blockade the Brits! I will get serious this afternoon and get back to you. Tsar J
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
The door is always open. I look forward to your thoughts on things. Just to let you know I'm not ignoring you I'm under the gun at the moment at work and don't have email access for the long weekend. I will try to respond quickly, but there may be some delay. Kaiser D
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo': > >I see by your builds that you have no intention of changing directions. > >:-( > >I'll have to think much more carefully about my plans now. Huh? I don't understand. I built two armies (as we agreed) for use on the continent (France/Germany) and the fleet is to convoy them over. Building a fleet in Liverpool would have tipped Manus off and building in London would have meant waiting a turn before being able to convoy anything! If I had wanted to continue attacking north, I already have more than enough units there to do it, I think that much is obvious. Don't make a hasty judgement until you see my moves. I believe you'll see that *I* have every intention of carrying out what we discussed. Now *YOU*, on the other hand, show every sign of having concluded a deal with A/I over the demilitarization of Turkey. Don't forget, I have already said I expected a stop-the-leader alliance to form after the last Fall season and it sure looks like my prediction has come true... Comments? Cal
Message from England to Master in 'pouchtoo':
Rick: As I mentioned in my broadcast the other day, I will be away next week, so I would appreciate a deadline extension. I leave tomorrow and will be back the following Saturday. As I don't expect to be included in much negotiating, a deadline the Monday after would seem sufficient. Thanks! Cal
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>Huh? I don't understand. I built two armies (as we agreed) There wasn't any agreement like that, actually. I have a complete record of our press, and I've just examined it for any trace of such an agreement, and I found none. I wonder what you're thinking of. > for use on the >continent (France/Germany) and the fleet is to convoy them over. Building a >fleet in Liverpool would have tipped Manus off and building in London would >have meant waiting a turn before being able to convoy anything! But this means you are definitely not moving into the Mediterranean this year. You're going to put armies on the continent, and I know what you *said* you'd do with them, but they will be, shall we say, multi-purpose armies. >If I had wanted to continue attacking north, I already have more than enough >units there to do it, I think that much is obvious. That is obvious. It's not exactly the point, not exactly what I'm worried about. >Now *YOU*, on the other hand, show every sign of having concluded a deal >with A/I over the demilitarization of Turkey. Oddly enough, I didn't discuss the adjustments with Austria *at all*. (Italy, as you noted, had no adjustments.) What is actually happening is that he's trying to make it difficult for me to steamroll through his remains, and I am trying to make it easy for me to do that! Those fleets sitting in Turkey have (had) become superfluous. > Don't forget, I have already >said I expected a stop-the-leader alliance to form after the last Fall >season and it sure looks like my prediction has come true... > >Comments? Yeah, comments. That prediction is going to come true if you make a move to cross into Eastern Europe. I won't have any choice, and the smaller powers are going to be greatly relieved if I have to settle with them at this late hour. Dave just wrote to me reminding me that "the door is always open" for A/R rapprochement, just as soon as I see the light (meaning, just as soon as I see that you're looking to cross into Silesia and Bohemia and those sorts of places). You point out that you have 'more than enough' units to continue attacking in the north. Yes indeed, but as long as you attack with fleets, it's only a nuisance to me. If you try to bring armies in for an attack, I have to fold up all my plans and agree to the terms of the little A/I coalition. One more comment. It sure seems to me that if any stop-the-leader alliance forms, the game will be over for all intents and purposes. It'll be a four-way draw. Hm. What is Dave saying to *you*, by the way? He seems to be *expecting* you to be moving armies into Central Europe. That's my impression, anyway. Tsar J
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo': >There wasn't any agreement like that, actually. I have a complete record of >our press, and I've just examined it for any trace of such an agreement, >and I found none. I wonder what you're thinking of. Hmm, now I am too... Unfortunately, MY records were wiped out with my computer crash a month or so ago, but I was sure that something like that was agreed on. I know the specific builds weren't discussed, but I thought the general idea HAD been. Didn't we talk about fortifying the continent at one point (now you've got me wondering if the agreement I'm remembering wasn't for a previous Fall turn. I hope not). Oh well, if I'm wrong, I'll once again have to let my actions speak for me. I am NOT planning an offensive thru the north. >But this means you are definitely not moving into the Mediterranean this >year. You're going to put armies on the continent, and I know what you >*said* you'd do with them, but they will be, shall we say, multi-purpose >armies. Since they're targetted for France (ie NOT Holland, Denmark or Norway, but Belgium, Picardy or Brest), their multi-purpose value is lost. Admittedly, I'll have to prove this is where they're going, but you'll see. >>If I had wanted to continue attacking north, I already have more than enough >>units there to do it, I think that much is obvious. > >That is obvious. It's not exactly the point, not exactly what I'm worried >about. Okay, understood, but the point I'm making still stands: why would I tip you off with a build in Edinburgh if I was headed that way. I'm a little better strategist than THAT (hopefully, we can ignore the "Yeah, but if he knows that I know that he knows etc argument..."). >Oddly enough, I didn't discuss the adjustments with Austria *at all*. >(Italy, as you noted, had no adjustments.) What is actually happening is >that he's trying to make it difficult for me to steamroll through his >remains, and I am trying to make it easy for me to do that! Those fleets >sitting in Turkey have (had) become superfluous. Okay, I can buy that, but if you sit in MY seat for a second, you must admit it looks collusionary (you don't own a baseball team, do you? ) >Yeah, comments. That prediction is going to come true if you make a move to >cross into Eastern Europe. I won't have any choice, and the smaller powers >are going to be greatly relieved if I have to settle with them at this late >hour. Dave just wrote to me reminding me that "the door is always open" for >A/R rapprochement, just as soon as I see the light (meaning, just as soon >as I see that you're looking to cross into Silesia and Bohemia and those >sorts of places). > >You point out that you have 'more than enough' units to continue attacking >in the north. Yes indeed, but as long as you attack with fleets, it's only >a nuisance to me. If you try to bring armies in for an attack, I have to >fold up all my plans and agree to the terms of the little A/I coalition. Agreed. That's why you won't see the armies heading anywhere but south (assuming you don't attack ME, of course...) >One more comment. It sure seems to me that if any stop-the-leader alliance >forms, the game will be over for all intents and purposes. It'll be a >four-way draw. Well, that's what most of the Observers said when the alliance was against you. This game may just turn into a Calhamerian ideal yet... If it gets to the stalemate point, I'll pull back and give centres to Manus and put a whole new dynamic into the game... (evil grin) >Hm. What is Dave saying to *you*, by the way? He seems to be *expecting* >you to be moving armies into Central Europe. That's my impression, anyway. Mostly, he's just been reminiscing about past camping experiences. Did I say mostly? Hell, camping is all he's mentioned since the Fall moves were released. (Did you know that his grandfather runs an outfitter and is out camping right now? He's the youngest member of that party and he's 83!) That and the fact that Manus has disappeared and you hadn't written even to say hi, was what got me wondering if I was on the outside looking in. As for his expectations, he made them up. I certainly never told him they were heading that way. He expects me to be moving north as fast as possible. Hmm, he could be thinking I'm heading there to support him in place though. I don't plan on that though. My ambitions (as far as Germany is concerned) stop right where they're at. The slogging thru the Central Plains is far too labourious for my taste and stalemate lines are set up far too easily. Anyway, to sum up. I'm sorry if there was miscommunication or misinterpretation on my part. I fully intend to carry on as I said I would do. You followed thru on your end, ceding me Munich & Sweden and I will follow thru on my part of the deal and head south. I'm sorry if it's slower than you had hoped for, but I'm going there nonetheless. Cal
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>Unfortunately, MY records were wiped out with my >computer crash a month or so ago, but I was sure that something like that >was agreed on. I know the specific builds weren't discussed, but I thought >the general idea HAD been. Didn't we talk about fortifying the continent at >one point (now you've got me wondering if the agreement I'm remembering >wasn't for a previous Fall turn. I hope not). As I recall, some long reply you wrote a few weeks ago never got to me. Maybe it was in there. (Multi-purpose armies) >Since they're targetted for France (ie NOT Holland, Denmark or Norway, but >Belgium, Picardy or Brest), their multi-purpose value is lost. Admittedly, >I'll have to prove this is where they're going, but you'll see. Ok, if that's where they are heading. Bel-Bur, of course, no problem, you do what you like over there; Bel-Ruh would be nerveracking, though. (And where would you be putting the army *currently* in Ruhr?) >>Oddly enough, I didn't discuss the adjustments with Austria *at all*. >>(Italy, as you noted, had no adjustments.) What is actually happening is >>that he's trying to make it difficult for me to steamroll through his >>remains, and I am trying to make it easy for me to do that! Those fleets >>sitting in Turkey have (had) become superfluous. > > >Okay, I can buy that, but if you sit in MY seat for a second, you must admit >it looks collusionary (you don't own a baseball team, do you?) Sure, it does. It struck me, too, how odd it looked for Turkey all of a sudden to be vacated (or really, left to Manus's whims! Kinda makes me a little queasy, that does). Here's why I noted that I hadn't discussed it with Dave at all: it's true, and it puts me a little further out a limb, since you can ask Dave if we discussed it at all, and though he and I *could* have made a huge plan (we'll vacate Turkey and if Cal asks we'll both say we never even talked about it), you have to admit that given the current state of communications in this game that kind of plan sounds rather implausible! Anyway, I've explained why it did happen that way, and since the explanation is true, it ought to be plausible. (Truth is underrated in Diplomacy, don't you think? I love it. It's so satisfying to stab someone when you've never lied to him at all! You can be really sanctimonious about it. ;-)) >>One more comment. It sure seems to me that if any stop-the-leader alliance >>forms, the game will be over for all intents and purposes. It'll be a >>four-way draw. > > >Well, that's what most of the Observers said when the alliance was against >you. This game may just turn into a Calhamerian ideal yet... If it gets to >the stalemate point, I'll pull back and give centres to Manus and put a >whole new dynamic into the game... (evil grin) Yeah. I suppose it *could* work that way. Geez, those centers would sure be poison pills for Manus. Swallowing them would be very unhealthy. I do think that this here actual game will *not* work that way. Nothing about the logic of the position, rather the history and the attitudes of the players. >That and the fact that Manus has disappeared and you hadn't written even to >say hi, was what got me wondering if I was on the outside looking in. Neither of them is talking. I think I have heard once from each of them since the Fall moves. I'm a very talkative player (big news!). If they were talking, I'd be talking their ears off. I'm not convinced that Manus has looked at the results yet. I mean, the FALL MOVEMENT results. (Dave) >As for his expectations, he made them up. I should have been more explicit about this. I didn't mean that he actually told me, "Cal is going for Central Europe." That was more like something I inferred from very general things he said. Don't you conclude that Dave is lying about you. No doubt he was trying to create a general scary impression! (Hey he tried that on you, and it worked ;-)) >My ambitions (as far as Germany >is concerned) stop right where they're at. The slogging thru the Central >Plains is far too labourious for my taste and stalemate lines are set up far >too easily. Ok, so here's my question, then. Where are you going for centers? If not into Germany (or Stp), I would have expected you'd be trying to crack into the Mediterranean. But you've left yourself pretty far away. Well, I can sort of see it. You'll spend a year putting the new armies in France, taking no new centers this year. That way you avoid growing to a size that would force the rest of the board against you. Then you can burst into the Mediterranean after that, and *IF* I am tying up Manus, you have some winning chances. And even if I'm not, quite possibly you can arrange things so that it's worth my while to poke at him. Maybe. I still have to think about this. My small intestine is telling me that I have to be very, very careful at this particular juncture. Tsar J
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo': Lasy note before I head up north. >As I recall, some long reply you wrote a few weeks ago never got to me. >Maybe it was in there. Dunno. Could be. >(Multi-purpose armies) >Ok, if that's where they are heading. Bel-Bur, of course, no problem, you >do what you like over there; Bel-Ruh would be nerveracking, though. (And >where would you be putting the army *currently* in Ruhr?) It's not an issue, since it will be Bel heaeding to Burgandy. >>Okay, I can buy that, but if you sit in MY seat for a second, you must admit >>it looks collusionary (you don't own a baseball team, do you?) > >Sure, it does. It struck me, too, how odd it looked for Turkey all of a >sudden to be vacated (or really, left to Manus's whims! Kinda makes me a >little queasy, that does). Ok, as long as you can see where I'm coming from... >Here's why I noted that I hadn't discussed it with Dave at all: it's true, >and it puts me a little further out a limb, since you can ask Dave if we >discussed it at all, and though he and I *could* have made a huge plan >(we'll vacate Turkey and if Cal asks we'll both say we never even talked >about it), you have to admit that given the current state of communications >in this game that kind of plan sounds rather implausible! Hey, *I'm* capable of it, so I'm doubly sure you guys could pull it off... >Anyway, I've explained why it did happen that way, and since the >explanation is true, it ought to be plausible. (Truth is underrated in >Diplomacy, don't you think? I love it. It's so satisfying to stab someone >when you've never lied to him at all! You can be really sanctimonious about >it. ;-)) Since I never lie, it's never occurred to me... (ahem) >>I'll pull back and give centres to Manus and put a >>whole new dynamic into the game... (evil grin) > >Yeah. I suppose it *could* work that way. Geez, those centers would sure be >poison pills for Manus. Swallowing them would be very unhealthy. >I do think that this here actual game will *not* work that way. Nothing >about the logic of the position, rather the history and the attitudes of >the players. It's an intriguing concept. Mayb I'll try it regardless.... not! >I'm a very talkative player (big news!). If they were talking, I'd be >talking their ears off. >I'm not convinced that Manus has looked at the results yet. I mean, the >FALL MOVEMENT results. You're probably right. >(Dave) >>As for his expectations, he made them up. > >I should have been more explicit about this. I didn't mean that he actually >told me, "Cal is going for Central Europe." That was more like something I >inferred from very general things he said. Don't you conclude that Dave is >lying about you. No doubt he was trying to create a general scary >impression! (Hey he tried that on you, and it worked ;-)) I never thought he was lying per se, but may have mentioned the idea to get you to back off. >Ok, so here's my question, then. Where are you going for centers? If not >into Germany (or Stp), I would have expected you'd be trying to crack into >the Mediterranean. But you've left yourself pretty far away. > >Well, I can sort of see it. You'll spend a year putting the new armies in >France, taking no new centers this year. That way you avoid growing to a >size that would force the rest of the board against you. Then you can burst >into the Mediterranean after that, and *IF* I am tying up Manus, you have >some winning chances. And even if I'm not, quite possibly you can arrange >things so that it's worth my while to poke at him. > >Maybe. As you point out, I DO expect to get any future centres from the Med. I just don't think I have to get them "a la blitzkrieg". If I was to "sweep" anywhere, that WOULD cement an alliance against me. This way, you and I can continue to pressure the central powers and probably end up racing each other for the win. That seems about best for both sets of (our) self-interests. Anything else and we turn the game Calhamerian again, don't you think? >I still have to think about this. My small intestine is telling me that I >have to be very, very careful at this particular juncture. My small intestine tells me it's time to get the canoe loaded into the truck. Auf weedeatersein! Cal
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
Oh, good, *this* ought to speed the game up a lot! Please send me a photo of your hair. I fear soon you will be tearing out whatever remains of it. Tsar J
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo': > >Oh, good, *this* ought to speed the game up a lot! > >Please send me a photo of your hair. I fear soon you will be tearing out >whatever remains of it. And me back early due to near-freezing temperatures too... oh well. Cal
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
As you may have figured, I am waiting (and waiting and waiting) to hear something from Manus. I am assuming you have heard nothing from him. You may have a view about whether (and on what terms) he would be prepared to cease all southern hostilities and participate in a stalemate line, but I'm guessing you don't really have any solid information about that. For a moment I was pretty worried, since you say you may not be able to read any mail you get after today, and Manus says he won't be sending any until late tonight. But then I realized, this really doesn't matter. I don't think it will matter to you what I *say* now. You will wait to see what I *do*. I don't think your moves this season will be affected by anything I could say. And really, if we *are* going to put together a four-way draw now, one season isn't going to make any difference. Cal's not in any position to ruin any stalemate line now, and he won't be next season either. Let me know if you think I've missed something. I expected I'd have a definite word for you a *long* time before now, but then Manus up and disappeared. (And he wasn't talking much before that either, for that matter.) Tsar J
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Hi Jamie, Frankly, I think Manus will be quite willing to halt southern hostilities anytime it seems obvious you are calling off the offensive. He's naturally worried about Cal since he's on the front line in the west. He isn't really in a position to carry on a war with you without my help, so if you and I can work out a peace then he'll go along. As for your second point, you are quite right, what you do will of course be more important than what you say. Nothing that I'm going to do can possibly be so momentous that it will make it impossible for us to work out a peace, so you are free to make the appropriate moves to establish a working relationship. If you do so, then I am open to realigning things, after all my goal is to prevent ANY win that does not include Austria, not just a Russian one, and I am confident that I can bring Manus along in such an agreement. Regards, Dave
Message from Austria to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Hi Manus, Jamie is making definite overtures towards trying to form stalemate lines to stop Cal. Of course he needs to back off first, but he will hopefully do that this turn. He is concerned about whether or not you'll be willing to work with that. A short note to him to the effect that if he backs off in the south you'd be amenable to not pushing farther (not that you'd leave anything open to him of course) might help. Obviously for this turn we'll have to make moves as if he were attacking, but if we are lucky maybe he will pull back. That or I'm toast (<:. I'll try to look at a map tonight and have some ideas. Any you have will be appreciated. Dave
Message from Austria to England in 'pouchtoo':
Hi Cal, Glad you enjoyed the time off, I could really use some. I've been out of touch of course, but there wasn't anything of substance in my mail box when I got back. Are you still willing to support me to Berlin? I'll try to look at the map tonight and come up with a plan, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Dave
Message from England to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Austria to England in 'pouchtoo': >Hi Cal, > >Glad you enjoyed the time off, I could really use some. I've been out >of touch of course, but there wasn't anything of substance in my mail >box when I got back. Are you still willing to support me to Berlin? >I'll try to look at the map tonight and come up with a plan, any >suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'm certainly still willing to support you in, but it's getting to be about time (ie Jamie is less of a threat to win now than a year ago) that we need to talk about what happens NEXT. I have definite worries about Manus. He has three centres in Turkey which seem to be his for the taking. Expansion like that would make him a very definite threat to me once Jamie is further reduced. The same would happen in any kind of stop-the-leader alliance against me. That's why I want you and I to work something out. You're the one person I can work with to mutual benefit. In trying to figure out where to go next, I feel that there are only limited expansion opportunities for me if I stick to the northern approach. At the same time I naturally have to worry about your reaction if I was to attack anywhere else (heading to the Med, of course, precludes me wondering about Manus' reaction - that'd be fairly predictable, I suspect...). Another option would be heading overland thru the neutral provinces towards Russia, but I don't like that idea for a few reasons: 1) it's always tough slogging; 2) I'm sure it would alienate you; C*) Manus reaction would probably be as bad as if I had hit the Med, but there would be little to stop him from attacking me rather effectively. I think you're at the point where continued pressure on Jamie and new pressure on Manus would put you back into the game as a solid participant, not just someone hanging on to avoid elimination. I very much want to know your thoughts on these ideas. In short, I need your reaction to several things: Am I wrong in thinking that you would not WANT English armies moving across the plains to Warsaw? How would you feel about an English move to the Med? Do you think my worries about Manus are justified? What do you want for the long term in return for your help against Italy and Russia? The most likely outcome as we speak seems to be a four (or perhaps three) way draw. Comments? Waiting to hear from you Cal * I was never good at making lists...
Message from Austria to England in 'pouchtoo':
> I'm certainly still willing to support you in, but it's getting to be about > time > (ie Jamie is less of a threat to win now than a year ago) that we need to > talk about what happens NEXT. > Yes > I have definite worries about Manus. He has three centres in Turkey which > seem to be his for the taking. Expansion like that would make him a very > definite threat to me once Jamie is further reduced. The same would happen > in any kind of stop-the-leader alliance against me. That's why I want you > and I to work something out. You're the one person I can work with to > mutual benefit. > Agreed > In trying to figure out where to go next, I feel that there are only limited > expansion opportunities for me if I stick to the northern approach. At the > same time I naturally have to worry about your reaction if I was to attack > anywhere else (heading to the Med, of course, precludes me wondering > about Manus' reaction - that'd be fairly predictable, I suspect...). > Another > option would be heading overland thru the neutral provinces towards Russia, > but I don't like that idea for a few reasons: > > 1) it's always tough slogging; > 2) I'm sure it would alienate you; > C*) Manus reaction would probably be as bad as if I had hit the Med, but > there would be little to stop him from attacking me rather effectively. > > I think you're at the point where continued pressure on Jamie and new > pressure on Manus would put you back into the game as a solid participant, > not just someone hanging on to avoid elimination. > Bwah hah hah! > I very much want to know your thoughts on these ideas. In short, I need > your reaction to several things: > > Am I wrong in thinking that you would not WANT English armies > moving across the plains to Warsaw? > How would you feel about an English move to the Med? > Do you think my worries about Manus are justified? > What do you want for the long term in return for your help against Italy > and Russia? > The most likely outcome as we speak seems to be a four (or perhaps > three) way draw. Comments? > To start at the end, I do agree with you at that the moment we are heading for a four or three way draw. While I obviously prefer this to a solo by anyone else, it is not necessarily my end goal. I am quite willing to make moves towards a two way (A/E) or even to make moves in that direction knowing that you'll take your best shot at the solo, but only if I think the chances for success are reasonable. That is, give me say a 40% chance of stopping your solo (or getting my own) and I'd go for it. The problem right now is that that chance is a lot more like 4%. If I were to hit Jamie or Manus right now, they would crush me between them, and you would have a good shot at the solo in the meantime. In addition, if you move to the Med now, not only will Manus send everything that way, but even Jamies fleet in Greece will head over to help, and of course I'd be committing suicide to do anything but go along with them. All that doesn't sound too encouraging, but I do think there is a good chance for us to work something out. I think the stop the leader play is going to shift in your direction soon. However, I do not think that is a bad thing for either of us. What it means is that Jamie will have to back off of me and Manus will have to shift west. While this does line them up on you, I don't think they'll be able to make any headway and it is vital to my being willing to make a move that you not be just a step away from 18. The real benefit of this though is that it leaves me in the middle with opportunities. In such a position, I can make a play to take out one of them (Manus most likely) and still have a decent enough position that I don't have to fear I'm just handing you the game. The other thing I'd want to have would be Munich. I'd be a lot more comfortable owning Munich than Berlin, it's a much safer position. I know this sounds like I'm asking a lot from you, but hey, I'm at 6 and you are at 13 and a four-way is better than an elminiation or a loss, so I've got to ask for a lot to bring us up to an equality we are both happy with. For the moment, I'd like to just take the slow approach. We take a shot at Berlin and you don't go for the Med and we see what Jamie does this spring. If he backs off, then I will strongly push Manus to back off as well. This will shift Manus your way sooner, but without the extra centers from taking Turkey, so he won't be a real threat to you. A little positioning, perhaps I can even bargain for a center or two from them and build a fleet or two, and we will be in a position to try something. It's going to have to be slow and carefull though. Thoughts? > Waiting to hear from you > the wait is over (<: > Cal > Dave > * I was never good at making lists... > Hey, I learned from Letterman, don't listen to me.
Message from Austria to England in 'pouchtoo':
> I'm certainly still willing to support you in, but it's getting to be about > time > (ie Jamie is less of a threat to win now than a year ago) that we need to > talk about what happens NEXT. > Yes > I have definite worries about Manus. He has three centres in Turkey which > seem to be his for the taking. Expansion like that would make him a very > definite threat to me once Jamie is further reduced. The same would happen > in any kind of stop-the-leader alliance against me. That's why I want you > and I to work something out. You're the one person I can work with to > mutual benefit. > Agreed > In trying to figure out where to go next, I feel that there are only limited > expansion opportunities for me if I stick to the northern approach. At the > same time I naturally have to worry about your reaction if I was to attack > anywhere else (heading to the Med, of course, precludes me wondering > about Manus' reaction - that'd be fairly predictable, I suspect...). > Another > option would be heading overland thru the neutral provinces towards Russia, > but I don't like that idea for a few reasons: > > 1) it's always tough slogging; > 2) I'm sure it would alienate you; > C*) Manus reaction would probably be as bad as if I had hit the Med, but > there would be little to stop him from attacking me rather effectively. > > I think you're at the point where continued pressure on Jamie and new > pressure on Manus would put you back into the game as a solid participant, > not just someone hanging on to avoid elimination. > Bwah hah hah! > I very much want to know your thoughts on these ideas. In short, I need > your reaction to several things: > > Am I wrong in thinking that you would not WANT English armies > moving across the plains to Warsaw? > How would you feel about an English move to the Med? > Do you think my worries about Manus are justified? > What do you want for the long term in return for your help against Italy > and Russia? > The most likely outcome as we speak seems to be a four (or perhaps > three) way draw. Comments? > To start at the end, I do agree with you at that the moment we are heading for a four or three way draw. While I obviously prefer this to a solo by anyone else, it is not necessarily my end goal. I am quite willing to make moves towards a two way (A/E) or even to make moves in that direction knowing that you'll take your best shot at the solo, but only if I think the chances for success are reasonable. That is, give me say a 40% chance of stopping your solo (or getting my own) and I'd go for it. The problem right now is that that chance is a lot more like 4%. If I were to hit Jamie or Manus right now, they would crush me between them, and you would have a good shot at the solo in the meantime. In addition, if you move to the Med now, not only will Manus send everything that way, but even Jamies fleet in Greece will head over to help, and of course I'd be committing suicide to do anything but go along with them. All that doesn't sound too encouraging, but I do think there is a good chance for us to work something out. I think the stop the leader play is going to shift in your direction soon. However, I do not think that is a bad thing for either of us. What it means is that Jamie will have to back off of me and Manus will have to shift west. While this does line them up on you, I don't think they'll be able to make any headway and it is vital to my being willing to make a move that you not be just a step away from 18. The real benefit of this though is that it leaves me in the middle with opportunities. In such a position, I can make a play to take out one of them (Manus most likely) and still have a decent enough position that I don't have to fear I'm just handing you the game. The other thing I'd want to have would be Munich. I'd be a lot more comfortable owning Munich than Berlin, it's a much safer position. I know this sounds like I'm asking a lot from you, but hey, I'm at 6 and you are at 13 and a four-way is better than an elminiation or a loss, so I've got to ask for a lot to bring us up to an equality we are both happy with. For the moment, I'd like to just take the slow approach. We take a shot at Berlin and you don't go for the Med and we see what Jamie does this spring. If he backs off, then I will strongly push Manus to back off as well. This will shift Manus your way sooner, but without the extra centers from taking Turkey, so he won't be a real threat to you. A little positioning, perhaps I can even bargain for a center or two from them and build a fleet or two, and we will be in a position to try something. It's going to have to be slow and carefull though. Thoughts? > Waiting to hear from you > the wait is over (<: > Cal > Dave > * I was never good at making lists... > Hey, I learned from Letterman, don't listen to me.
Message from Austria to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Hi Manus, Thoughts for this move: Ion - Alb, Aeg - Con, Syr - Arm That will keep him off my back a bit and give him a chance to back off if he's serious about a new stop-the-leader alliance aimed at England. Cal has suggested that Jamie is offering you Turkey as a buy off to let him take me out. Seems possible, but as I know Cal will jump into the Med full bore if he sees that, and I'll do what I can to open a hole for him in the north, I'm hoping that is all in Cal's head. -Dave
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Hi Jamie, Any word from Manus? I certainly won't hold you to anything, but should you be interested in a rapproachment, then may I suggest the following: Bla s Bul - Con, Bul - Con, Gre - Bul/sc, Rum s Gre - Bul/sc Alb - Gre, Ser s Alb - Gre That keeps you pretty safe and shifts the units away. Given that we should be able to convince Manus to head west and maybe even your fleet can go that way. -Dave
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Don't worry -- I'm not about to do anything that would endanger myself. And stabbing you would certainly do that. At the moment, I'm dependent on you to keep Cal OUT of the Med, and I will toe whatever line I need to to make sure he stays there. I do want to set up a stalemate line out west, but don't know how soon I can get around to doing it? Any ideas? Manus
Message from Austria to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Jamie is making definite noises about needing to have you set up there. He seems concerned that if he backs off in the south you will keep pressing him though. Obviously we can't trust him this turn, but if you make the moves and Jamie does back off then we might be in a position where you can start shifting your units to the west. One possibility if you want to trust him that far is to do: Spa - WMEd, Mar - Spa and have Jamie move Tyr - Pie. I want to see Ionian heading west, but need it this turn to protect against Jamie just in case. If he's serious about a realignment and shows it in his moves, then we could even consider having you take a Turkish center for a build, then give it back next year. That would give you a fleet in the west and maybe even let Jamie build another northern fleet. > > Don't worry -- I'm not about to do anything that would endanger myself. > And stabbing you would certainly do that. At the moment, I'm dependent > on you to keep Cal OUT of the Med, and I will toe whatever line I need > to to make sure he stays there. > > I do want to set up a stalemate line out west, but don't know how soon I > can get around to doing it? Any ideas? > As said above, this fall if Jamie goes along. Send him mail! -Dave
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Well, my friend, I am becoming more and more convinced that we're in a four-way unless we play a slowly-turned three-way against Cal. Both Cal and Dave have threatened my big-time that if I cross Dave in any way whatsoever, the English navy will be in my gullet. Yes, this could have been prevented by me setting up a line out west earlier rather than later. But at that point, the threat was that Dave would throw the game to YOU if we didn't go along, and it was a very real threat. Unfortunately, it is now just as real that Cal can have the game if Dave sends it to him, because Cal will continue to position himself such that the first anti-Dave move I make will give him the extra tempo he needs to grab my dots. That's the way I see things. Dave's plan has you backing off in the South this turn, me backing to the west next turn, and you building a northern fleet ASAP. How does this sound to you and have you been in touch with him on this plan? Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>Well, my friend, I am becoming more and more convinced that we're in a >four-way unless we play a slowly-turned three-way against Cal. Both Cal >and Dave have threatened my big-time that if I cross Dave in any way >whatsoever, the English navy will be in my gullet. I'm not convinced that this is a credible threat. But if you are, that's it. So I'll go for the 4-way now. If by some miracle we do start to push Cal back, then ok, we can play it from there, but I don't think that's going to happen. I think the game will end shortly. >Yes, this could have been prevented by me setting up a line out west earlier >rather than later. But at that point, the threat was that Dave would throw >the game to YOU if we didn't go along, and it was a very real threat. You should have stabbed Dave. He could not have thrown the game to me under those conditions. He would have had to throw me all of Italy and Tunis. But that's over, c'est la vie. >Unfortunately, it is now just as real that Cal can have the game if Dave >sends it to him, because Cal will continue to position himself such that >the first anti-Dave move I make will give him the extra tempo he needs to >grab my dots. Again, I don't think it's that clear. I think possibly you could hold Mar and Spa for a couple of years against Cal, long enough for me to eliminate Dave and feed you a couple of dots to maintain your Med defense. The question, I think, is whether Dave could get Cal over the Central European part of the stalemate line, so that when he *did* get Spa and Mar (and he can obviously get Ber and Stp), he'd win by snagging something from Austria or maybe Ven or War. But I no longer want to talk about that. I'm going for the 4-way draw. It will be very easy. The only trick will be to make sure I do it obviously enough so that Dave will believe that's what I'm doing! >Dave's plan has you backing off in the South this turn, me backing to the >west next turn, and you building a northern fleet ASAP. > >How does this sound to you and have you been in touch with him on this plan? That sounds fine. I mean, I don't think it matters, really. Tsar J
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
>Any word from Manus? Just a couple of hours ago (very shortly after I got this question from you). So, it's a deal. I'm calling off the invasion, I agree to a 4-way draw. >I certainly won't hold you to anything, but should you be interested in >a rapproachment, then may I suggest the following: > >Bla s Bul - Con, Bul - Con, Gre - Bul/sc, Rum s Gre - Bul/sc >Alb - Gre, Ser s Alb - Gre That looks ok off hand. I'll examine the board and I will inform you in advance of my moves. (I think!) >That keeps you pretty safe and shifts the units away. Given that we >should be able to convince Manus to head west and maybe even your fleet >can go that way. Uh. So, are you thinking we are now actually going to try to beat back the Brits? Or is this just about the end of the game, a 4-way? I was thinking the latter. My general plan is to stick my armies into stalemate position. Let's see, I think there are seven armies needed east of Switz. How many do I have? (It's been a while!) I must have at least seven. So we can use yours too, or else we can rely entirely on mine and yours will stick around in the middle to keep me honest. Oh, and it would be very nice to have one in Piedmont -- we could set up a line that holds Marseilles, too. Do we have enough fleets among us? Just barely, if we include mine! Hm. Yeah, I think we'd better try to include Mar in the line. Manus can have Ank or something if necessary. I'll give up centers, just not too many. (If you take one, you'd better build a fleet, I think.) Tomorrow I will work out some details. Also, some time soon I will explain why it's taken me so long to agree to terms. (I doubt it will be much of a surprise to you!) Tsar J
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Hi Jamie, I have no problem with the 4 way, there's really no way that I can expect anything more. I am making my moves this turn based of course on the possibility that you are going to hit me, but assuming you back off we are all set and I think we are soon enough to prevent an English win even if he storms the Med this turn (and I've done a fair bit of work to prevent that from happening). Should I end up getting a build out of this, then yes, it would be a fleet. Also, this is a spring turn, so assuming you make a shift that convinces Manus and I, we can make our decisions about how to allocate centers in the fall. We have room to shift them anyway we please in the Balkans/Turkey. In fact we can setup a regular building factory by swapping them around or forcing some retreats if for example there is a chance for you to build a fleet in STP and that seems useful or if we need to get Manus a fleet build quickly. I will not be around tomorrow, so I have to send in my moves now. Regards, Dave _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Oh, ok. Then I'll follow your suggestions. Sorry, I just haven't gotten around to figuring out what else I'll do. I was waiting for Manus, then this afternoon was extra busy. Right, you go ahead and move as though I were still attacking. No problem, plenty of time to fix things up. (It might be kind of awkward if Cal ended up in Tyrolia, but even that is fixable.) Tsar J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Your recent message depressed me and I got from it the feeling that I have somehow ruined the whole game experience for you. If you would like to discuss alternatives, I am still willing. I was just shocked that both Dave and Cal would write me and accuse me of being ready to toss Dave overboard, when I thought they would have no inkling. Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>Your recent message depressed me and I got from it the feeling that I have >somehow ruined the whole game experience for you. If you would like to >discuss alternatives, I am still willing. I think it's rather too late now, personally. Though my analysis made me think it was possible to eliminate Dave safely, I am not willing to take the chance now. In any case, I assume you looked things over carefully and made your own decision. > I was just shocked that both >Dave and Cal would write me and accuse me of being ready to toss Dave >overboard, when I thought they would have no inkling. Possibly they could think of no other explanation for why I was waiting for you before I turned in moves. I can't think of any other explanation myself. Dave sent me some moves he wanted me to make. I can't make exactly those moves, because Dave thought I had a F Bla. But I will make essentially the moves he suggested. You can't have Gre, but you just move Ion-TyS, Aeg-Ion, and when you need another fleet to set up the stalemate line, we'll arrange for you to get another center using that army in Turkey. My fleet will eventually follow yours west. The army line in through Boh, etc., will be trivial. I expect we'll get my A Tyo into Piedmont to support you in Mar, though that will await Dave's permission (if he moves Tri-Ven this season, he could put that army in Pied next season). Tsar J
Message from England to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
>All that doesn't sound too encouraging, but I do think there is a good >chance for us to work something out. I think the stop the leader play >is going to shift in your direction soon. However, I do not think that >is a bad thing for either of us. It must be a "point-of-view" thing. What it means is that Jamie will have >to back off of me and Manus will have to shift west. While this does line >them up on you, I don't think they'll be able to make any headway and it >is vital to my being willing to make a move that you not be just a step >away from 18. The real benefit of this though is that it leaves me in >the middle with opportunities. In such a position, I can make a play to >take out one of them (Manus most likely) and still have a decent enough >position that I don't have to fear I'm just handing you the game. The >other thing I'd want to have would be Munich. I'd be a lot more comfortable >owning Munich than Berlin, it's a much safer position. > >I know this sounds like I'm asking a lot from you, but hey, I'm at 6 and >you are at 13 and a four-way is better than an elminiation or a loss, so >I've got to ask for a lot to bring us up to an equality we are both happy >with. > >For the moment, I'd like to just take the slow approach. We take a shot at >Berlin and you don't go for the Med and we see what Jamie does this spring. >If he backs off, then I will strongly push Manus to back off as well. This >will shift Manus your way sooner, but without the extra centers from taking >Turkey, so he won't be a real threat to you. A little positioning, perhaps >I can even bargain for a center or two from them and build a fleet or two, >and we will be in a position to try something. It's going to have to be >slow and carefull though. > >Thoughts? Well, I must say I had hoped for a more positive reaction, but I suppose that WAS pretty unrealistic. In your situation, I suspect I'd be asking for much of the same thing. My interpretation of what you're saying is this: I should basically sit still and allow myself to be attacked by everyone (yourself included) in the vague hope that you may be able to worm a couple of centres out of Manus or Jamie at which time you may be able to make a move against one of them, as long as it doesn't benefit ME too much. I know you didn't say it this way and you probably don't mean it as harshly as I've phrased it, but I'm afraid that it DOES pretty much boil down to what's above. Sigh... I think I'll go it alone for a turn or two. I know I can't force my way to a solo, but I think that the improvement I can make in my position is worth declining your offer. Keep in touch. Hopefully, we'll have something to talk about later. Cal signoff
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Dave, Ok, I've entered my move. Here is an almost full report. >Bla s Bul - Con, Bul - Con, Gre - Bul/sc, Rum s Gre - Bul/sc >Alb - Gre, Ser s Alb - Gre You will not be too disappointed, I hope, that I did not order Bla S Bul-Con. I have an extremely good excuse, I think you'll agree. :-) You also list Ser s Alb-Gre. Ser is your army, not mine. I am not expecting you to issue that order. Maybe you were looking at a map from an earlier season? I decided not to make exactly the other moves you suggest, but the gist is about the same, so I'm pretty sure you'll be satisfied. I am taking a small chance and ordering Pru S War-Sil, dislodging you from Sil. The point is that you are not going to change your direction during the movement phase, we've agreed on that, so I am giving you a 'forward retreat', I hope, into Bohemia. Since it's very unlikely that you will be moving Vie-Boh or Gal-Boh, you can retreat Sil-Boh unless Cal is moving to Boh, which also seems fairly unlikely (I'm sure he'll use either A Mun or A Ruh to support Bel-Bur, and he wouldn't order Mun-Boh unless he also ordered Ruh-Mun). If your army has nowhere to retreat, well, there should be no problem clearing your home centers for the replacement build, since I am moving away from them and I am even attempting to move out of Budapest. I would order Tyo-Pie, but I would prefer not to see Mun-Tyo, so I'm just going to leave the A Tyo where it is (actually, ordering Tyo-Mun). There is some chance that we can actually take Munich in the Fall. In any case, I think we ought to be able to build a stalemate line that holds Berlin. Hm, I don't know where your units will end up.... Yikes. I'd better not think about that anymore, every time I do I can see how bad your position is against me! :-) But anyway, the line that holds Berlin requires seven units plus the one in Berlin (for the East of Switz part, I mean). That could be my two fleets (F Ber, F Livonia) plus six armies (Tyo, Boh, Sil, Pru, War, Mos), and a couple of those armies could be yours (maybe A Boh, A Sil, say). This leaves us each with some armies to cash in for a southern fleet or two, as you noted. And maybe you can move an army to Piedmont, that would be nice, so we can help Manus hold Marseilles in his part of the line. I bet you are ordering Tri-Ven, so you could use that one. And you'll have some armies to leave in the middle of your own possessions, to police this alliance (and I will have at least one or two for the same purposes, but in any case I will have such a powerful potential to throw the game that I'm not really concerned about defending myself from you or Manus). If/when we've got that line, it's essentially the same if we've also added Munich. I do hope Manus is ordering Ion-TyS, Aeg-Ion. It will be depressing if he's got some other idea. I suppose you will already have the results by the time you get this. Tsar J
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Nothing from you today.... I just want to reiterate: send those fleets west. Do whatever you want with the army in Turkey, but make sure you sail the fleets west. The stalemate line east of Switz is looking very secure, I think. I don't know what Dave is going to do, but unless he does something really radical there should be no problem shoring up the line very quickly. And I believe we can move an army into Pied in the Fall, either a red one or a white one, so you can hold Marseilles. So the only potential soft spot is the fleets. We might need either mine or one that Dave will build to complete the line. Or you can build another one, I guess. But don't leave the fleets in the east! (And don't try for Greece, please.) Tsar J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> Nothing from you today.... > Trying to get some time. All that is left really for me to do is take Dave's suggested moves, and yours, and put in orders that will make us all happy. I hope to find time to do this tonight. Hopefully pre-deadline (!) I believe Dave wants me to hang one more turn before setting sail, and you want me to sail now. I have to strike the happy medium and walk the wire. At this point, it's a game of patience, and hopefully it will break back to a plus side for us sometime. Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>I believe Dave wants me to hang one more turn before setting sail, >and you want me to sail now. I have to strike the happy medium and >walk the wire. Argh! No doubt he wants you to hang just in case I'm going to try to eliminate him. But *you* don't think that, so you really ought to sail west. (And even if I *did* try to eliminate him, you wouldn't attack me and try to save him, would you???) Look, you can save Spain if you do it now. Otherwise look how far you're going to be from defending Spain. > At this point, it's a game of patience, and hopefully >it will break back to a plus side for us sometime. I don't follow you. Well, whatever. You do what you think best. Tsar J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
I'm really aggravating you, aren't I? Well, on the bright side, I'm aggravating myself too, so at least you don't need to feel alone. Even if you are. Because you can be alone without being alone, you know, or at least without thinking you are. Or something like that. Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
You are not aggravating. You are irritating. Look it up. ;-) But first order Aeg-Ion, Ion-Tys. But listen, I am ordering my fleet to the Aegean and my A Bul to Con. Dave instructed me to do that! (I'm not sure he was consulting an accurate map, though, since he also gave me a suggestion for my F Bla. Which has a handicap of the worst kind, namely nonexistence.) If my fleet doesn't get out of Gre, my A Alb won't go to Gre, and it will be stuck in Alb, and Dave will be unhappy. So for that reason if no other, get that F Aeg out to Ion! -J
Retreat
Message from Russia to Austria and Italy in
'pouchtoo': Peace at last. Well, that looks good enough for a draw, anyway. Shall we press ahead? Or call it quits? Tsar J
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Whew, you Did the Right Thing. Too bad we couldn't get an army in Pied, to cover Mar. But you can guess to cover both Mar and Spa, or you can just go back (MAO-SPA(nc!), Spa-Mar) and be sure to cover. I dislodged Dave so that he could 'retreat forward' to Bohemia now that he sees my intentions. We agreed that he had to make anti-Russian moves this turn, but that my moves were supposed to demonstrate my final intentions, so now I do expect he will retreat to Boh. And that *might* make Cal use the A Bur to defend Munich. My instinct is to retreat Bal-Lvn, which is the stalemate position to hold Berlin. I'll have to see whether there's any point in retreating to Bothnia instead, and whether it's safe. Tsar J
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
That should do it, right? Too bad you cut my support of Baltic Sea. But it's no big deal. It just means we don't get Munich now. I guess we could try for Mun. Off hand my inclination is to retreat to Livonia, to the stalemate position. I guess it depends on whether we are just going to settle the draw right now, or actually try to take on the English. Manus's F MAO opens up that possibility. Well, let's see what Manus thinks. Tsar J
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Hello?
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
You there? I know you went away Tuesday night or Wednesday morning. Tsar J
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
I suppose that was inevitable. I didn't really expect that you were going to let me keep Berlin or Stp! Well, we shall see if I'll really need them. That Italian fleet looks like it could be a pain, huh? Too bad you didn't build F Lvp. ;-) Or is this part of your grand plan to draw Manus so far west that I'll go ahead and jump on him? :-) :-) :-) Tsar J
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>Hmmm. I think if I were going to be taking a shot at Stp or Ber, I would >have 1) moved f Edi-Nrg Unless, as I suspect, you are going to be taking those shots *and* trying to penetrate the Med. > and 2) supported Austrian A Sil-Ber like he asked me to. But then *he* would have gotten it! > Baltic was strictly a defensive move to keep you honest. ! How so? An unsupported move to Bal I could see as making sure I didn't get a supported attack on Kiel, I guess. But you took Bal yourself. I can't see *any* defensive purpose to that move. > Berlin is pretty safe from me if you really look at it. Yeah? You now have three units against it, and an Austrian one available to cut my support. >You've got me confused. Are we working together or not? I don't know. I'll have to see what you do next season, I guess. >Can you really hold moving to >Baltic against me when you take a shot at Munich AND Norway? Unsupported moves! Hardly "taking a shot". I was hoping to keep you from entering Norway, so that I'd stand some chance of holding onto Stp. I was right to do that, I think. I moved to Mun to cut support in case you were going to go for Berlin right away. You didn't, but it sure *looks* like you were just setting up to do it in the Fall. >I guess you're going to have to decide: side with A/I and take the obvious >and easy four way draw (yuk) or work with me and take the chance that I may >pull off a solo in the hopes that you can get (the more likely result of) a >two way. > >It's up to you. It is up to me. But you are making it very difficult for me to do anything but settle for a 4-way. So far. Tsar J
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo': >>Hmmm. I think if I were going to be taking a shot at Stp or Ber, I would >>have 1) moved f Edi-Nrg > >Unless, as I suspect, you are going to be taking those shots *and* trying >to penetrate the Med. Hmmm, fair enough. Not what's happening, but I see how you think that. FTR, I don't think I'm strong enough to do both (I could give you examples, but I suspect we BOTH know where I'm weak) and you can see I DID move, quite demonstrably, south as previously agreed upon. >> and 2) supported Austrian A Sil-Ber like he asked me to. > >But then *he* would have gotten it! If I wanted to go against you, that wouldn't have mattered. On the assumption that you two would be fighting (which would probably continue if he took Berlin), I could take it from him more easily than from you in the current configuration. But I didn't want to go against you. >> Baltic was strictly a defensive move to keep you honest. > >! >How so? An unsupported move to Bal I could see as making sure I didn't get >a supported attack on Kiel, I guess. But you took Bal yourself. I can't see >*any* defensive purpose to that move. Like I said, it's a defensive move. With me there, I don't have to worry about Kiel. >> Berlin is pretty safe from me if you really look at it. > >Yeah? You now have three units against it, and an Austrian one available to >cut my support. I didn't support him in. You really think he's going to support ME in? He can count centres too, y'know...Anyway, HERE'S where our main philosophical and/or perceptual conflict occurs. I am working on the assumption that Austria is on your side, if not now (as seems apparent by the moves) then in the near future. He has come out and told me that he sees an anti-England stop-the-leader alliance as inevitable in the near future. He worked with me this turn (although I didn't reciprocate) in hopes of making sure you could be controlled (tamed?) enough to make sure you took part by being down a centre (Berlin). Frankly, that's pretty much the reason I refused to give him support to Munich - didn't want to facilitate his plans against me or hurt you. You, on the other hand, are working on the assumption that Austria is, and will STAY, on my side against you. I don't think you're giving Dave enough credit. This game has already seen enemies turn into friends against a common foe (uh, that would be you, if you recall... ) for either of us to assume his continued aggression against you. That's where *I'm* coming from. Reasonable? Anyway, I think this is what is leading us to keep wondering about each other's moves. I *THINK* you will see my moves as more reasonable if you try to look at it from my point of view. Agreed, the Baltic move was aggressive and I understand your questioning it, but looked at with the assumption that I will be facing ALL of you very shortly, it's not so unreasonable. Certainly, if I had wanted to, I could have made other followup moves that you would have liked MUCH less. No? >>You've got me confused. Are we working together or not? > >I don't know. >I'll have to see what you do next season, I guess. Heh heh, we could cut and paste THAT into each message we send each other, eh? >>Can you really hold moving to >>Baltic against me when you take a shot at Munich AND Norway? > >Unsupported moves! Hardly "taking a shot". I was hoping to keep you from >entering Norway, so that I'd stand some chance of holding onto Stp. I was >right to do that, I think. I moved to Mun to cut support in case you were >going to go for Berlin right away. You didn't, but it sure *looks* like you >were just setting up to do it in the Fall. Fair enough. I didn't hold them against you. They were defensive moves... Just like mine... See above. >>I guess you're going to have to decide: side with A/I and take the obvious >>and easy four way draw (yuk) or work with me and take the chance that I ma y >>pull off a solo in the hopes that you can get (the more likely result of) a >>two way. >> >>It's up to you. > >It is up to me. >But you are making it very difficult for me to do anything but settle for a >4-way. > >So far. Okay, keep an open mind is all I ask. Cal
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
I originally sent this last night and went to bed. Judge sent it back saying I typed something wrong. Oh well, here it is: >Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo': > >I suppose that was inevitable. I didn't really expect that you were going >to let me keep Berlin or Stp! > >Well, we shall see if I'll really need them. Hmmm. I think if I were going to be taking a shot at Stp or Ber, I would have 1) moved f Edi-Nrg and 2) supported Austrian A Sil-Ber like he asked me to. Baltic was strictly a defensive move to keep you honest. Berlin is pretty safe from me if you really look at it. I'd say I kept to our deal fairly well. Certainly, the moves with my armies in England and in Germany were EXACTLY what I told you I'd be doing. You've got me confused. Are we working together or not? I realize, we are going to have a hard time trusting each other, but I really didn't deviate very far from what I said I would be doing. I definitely didn't make any really blatant OFFENSIVE moves against you. Can you really hold moving to Baltic against me when you take a shot at Munich AND Norway? I think all three moves are easily forgiveable by each of us as being something we just had to do for safety's sake. No? I guess you're going to have to decide: side with A/I and take the obvious and easy four way draw (yuk) or work with me and take the chance that I may pull off a solo in the hopes that you can get (the more likely result of) a two way. It's up to you. >That Italian fleet looks like it could be a pain, huh? Too bad you didn't >build F Lvp. ;-) Or is this part of your grand plan to draw Manus so far >west that I'll go ahead and jump on him? :-) :-) :-) I can muster enough forces to stop Manus in his tracks and even advance somewhat so his fleet doesn't worry me. It all depends on whether or not you're a player who can be satisfied with a four way. ;-) Suggestions for tactics? Or am I all on my own here? I'll live with it either way. Ciao Cal