| Press for Fall of 1901 in ghodstoo |
Movement
Broadcast message from [email protected] as Master in 'ghodstoo':
> Broadcast message from [email protected] as Austria in 'ghodstoo':
>
> Is there a general record/database anywhere on games done?
>
Sort of, there are BNs and MNs and that kind of reporting. And some of
the same as above. I'm not sure such databases are in the form in
which you want. What do you want, exactly?
There is also the infamous (in some circles at least) Hall of Fame which
I produce. It currently contains the results of over 1200 games finished
up to September 1996. I have another 350 games finished since then that
I am yet to process. The main list has a breakdown by player
so you can can see all his games, and results.
Summaries and histories (a history is an archive of what an observer
would see in a game), are stored for most games at the judge they were
played on.
> With all this 'judge' stuff it would seem that some sort of automatic record
> system should be fairly easy to maintain and access...or am I taking a typical
> non-computer approach to the project?
Well, sort of easy. It seemed easy when there were 40 or 50 games
finished every year, but now we are up to 5-10 games being finished
every day it's starting to get out of control.
Nick
>
> Broadcast message from [email protected] as Austria in 'ghodstoo':
>
I'll be happy to comment in general.
>
> Is there a norm in the flow of correspondence in the E-mail games? Do most
> communications tend to lump around the beginning of the turn information or is
> it more common for the final day(s) to have a focus of activity?
I would say that it varies a lot. This is expected, because E-Mail access
is variable and ideosyncratic for all of us. In these "long" deadline
games, everything seems to happen in pulsating flurries. Think of how
most of you do things. You sign on and send six messages at once.
Two people might read those quickly and send a flurry of replies.
Then, when deadline approaches, you have to send in the final orders,
so, yes, there does tend to be a closing flurry UNLESS everyone already
is set (which can happen at different times in games).
Demo games like these also tend to raise concern about what the volume
actually is. Unlike FTF, you can't observe "X and Y are talking", but
unlike PBM you can get an impression of how people respond to correspondence
at least in how and when they reply to you. Variants where the volume of
correspondence is "public" or even "controlled" have been proposed. With
public volume counts, there obviously are ways to distort it by blizzards
of blank messages.
>
> Is there a database on players and openings as was maintained by the Swedes?
>
Yes, and yes. This is not something I've done a lot with myself,
so I am not the best one for advice. Manus Hand's www dip szine The
Diplomatic Pouch has all of the relevant connections.... ummm,
it just moved so I don't recall it off the top of my head anymore, but
isn't it at http://devel.diplom.org/DipPouch ??? Manus is observing here
and will be sure to correct that if it's wrong. Mark Nelson and others
have done lots of analysis on openings frequencies.
> Is there a general record/database anywhere on games done?
>
Sort of, there are BNs and MNs and that kind of reporting. And some of
the same as above. I'm not sure such databases are in the form in
which you want. What do you want, exactly?
> With all this 'judge' stuff it would seem that some sort of automatic record
> system should be fairly easy to maintain and access...or am I taking a typical
> non-computer approach to the project?
>
> Edi
>
Well, in principle it's trivial, to organize it and make it
"accessible" in an easy way? That's hard.
Jim
> Go, CELTICS!
[...]
>Yeah, try to win your 10th before the Bulls win their 40th. :(
>
>Rick
>Depressed Celtics Fan
It's a secret plan, Rick, don't worry. See, both the Celts and Dabroonz
are going to finish in the cellar (and, in so doing, Dabroonz wil break a
professional sports record for most consecutive years in post-season
play...Yay!...another Boston record). Then they'll both get the 1st pick
in the draft but, in a totally unexpected move, Bob Kraft will buy both
teams, trade them to New York (which doesn't have any pro sports teams) in
exchange for Bill Parcells. With Parcells back, of course, the Patsies win
the Super Bowl in 1998.
Got it?
-KaiserPitt
(so maybe I need to lighten up on the Jolt just a bit...)
> With that the shadowed one departed for discussions with scribes and
>assorted minion.
I'll have the Salisbury steak, please, with assorted minion.
Hungry King Jamie
Vienna (Free Press)
"What is this talk of 'groupies'?" ask BirSauron.
"Could be those people that bring back the dice at the gambling tables."
commented Lorac, Master of the Household Guard.
"Maybe they are thinking of The Minion."
" Well it seems we have to deal with them too for soon the die will be cast or
the cast may die upon the opening scene of this act."
With that the shadowed one departed for discussions with scribes and
assorted minion.
Private message from Observer to Austria:
> Vienna (Free Press)
> Recent communications from Saint Petersburg appear to reflect a slight change
> in perception...'By jove, I think he's getting it....'
>
Good job, Edi!
Fawning at your feet, like a good groupie should,
Manus
Vienna (Free Press)
Recent communications from Saint Petersburg appear to reflect a slight change
in perception...'By jove, I think he's getting it....'
The Viennese press is well taken, and this observer wishes to even the
lay of the land a bit by declaring (with no offense to St. Petersburg,
[or at least not to Luigi]) that he should henceforth be considered an
Edi groupie, not a Pitt groupie.
(But I'm still your manager, Pitt, and don't forget it.)
(Will you send me some of those cute little sausages now, Edi?)
Manus
Let me expand upon my earlier reply to the YogFather, and all his
ruminations (don't cows ruminate when they rechew their udders? Or am I
thinking of udder things???)
The Ed-Master speaks of Southern Powers, Wrst Pointers, and whatnot.
Let us all heed the call of history, and recall that peter the Great (my
father) was a Westernizer who brought much power to Russia...He even
spent time as a common shipbuilder in Holland, learning the intricacies
of western work and ideas. (Hmmm, Pitt, this gives me an idea--can I
have HOL this game?)
So indeed, Russia *should* be "Pointing West" for her rendezvous with
karma. The last time we heard about Southern Power was, sadly(?),
around 1863....my apologies to those of you with "Forget H***" bumper
stickers on your pickup trucks.
Tsar Faz teaches Intellectual Pluralism (or Multiple Schizophrenia, take
your pick). as such, the Winter Palace deems it only right that we
absorb all cultures and land, oops, I mean, that we take in as much
land, I mean, cultures, I....ah, forget it.
Tsar Faz
Slipper of the Freudian
huh?
endpress signoff
>----------
>From: USIN Diplomacy Judge[SMTP:[email protected]]
>Sent: Thursday, January 30, 1997 11:53 AM
>To: Fassio, M. MAJ SOC
>Subject: Diplomacy notice: ghodstoo
>
> News about USIN can be found at
> http://kleiman.indianapolis.in.us/usin.htm
>
> All unmoderated games will be removed.
> Judge keeper is [email protected].
> Judge address is [email protected]
>
>Broadcast message from [email protected] as Austria in 'ghodstoo':
>
>
>Vienna (Free Press)
> The scribes at the Palantir Network Broadcast System (PNBS) were stunned
>at the recent discovery in Central Europe of a character called Yog. Seems
>the young fellow was having some problems with a door way and could not
>manage
>to walk through it. Something about his gait. It would normally be
>recommended that he take a change of pace.
> Meanwhile the confusion seems to have spread as far as Saint Petersburg
>where the Tzar has surrounded himself by so many Western Observers that he
>has
>lost sight of the fact that the very first origin of International Relations
>was dealing with the divinities amongst the first people. These observers
>are
>so intent on their perception of the things Western that they are now called
>West Pointers much to the disappointment of the Southern Powers where the
>civilization that they admire originated.
> That the worlds great social and poltical efforts were first seen in the
>fantastic stories of legendary characters and struggles is often lost on
>those
>who have been given the scriptures by Marx, Lasswell, McMahon and the host of
>others who seek science in the politic of nations when we are really dealing
>with the imagination of men. Bring on your Orcs and wayward Yogi's for
>through the psyche of it all we shall cover the droll analysis with a shroud
>of sparkling fun to entertain and confound those who shall stumble upon the
>efforts of all here most humble.
>
>
Vienna (Free Press)
The scribes at the Palantir Network Broadcast System (PNBS) were stunned
at the recent discovery in Central Europe of a character called Yog. Seems
the young fellow was having some problems with a door way and could not manage
to walk through it. Something about his gait. It would normally be
recommended that he take a change of pace.
Meanwhile the confusion seems to have spread as far as Saint Petersburg
where the Tzar has surrounded himself by so many Western Observers that he has
lost sight of the fact that the very first origin of International Relations
was dealing with the divinities amongst the first people. These observers are
so intent on their perception of the things Western that they are now called
West Pointers much to the disappointment of the Southern Powers where the
civilization that they admire originated.
That the worlds great social and poltical efforts were first seen in the
fantastic stories of legendary characters and struggles is often lost on those
who have been given the scriptures by Marx, Lasswell, McMahon and the host of
others who seek science in the politic of nations when we are really dealing
with the imagination of men. Bring on your Orcs and wayward Yogi's for
through the psyche of it all we shall cover the droll analysis with a shroud
of sparkling fun to entertain and confound those who shall stumble upon the
efforts of all here most humble.
It must be remembered.... two things....
1) Bob "Sludge" Olsen is the hobby's greatest H.P. Lovecraft fan.
2) Gentle King Jamie ALSO lives in Providence....
Your Boobish GM
>Folks: As gamers, we all occasionally get flyers for new products. I had to
>share this one with you, lifted from the company's ad brochure. Anyone
familiar with civilian institutions will nod knowlingly as they read
this...I know I did.
>Faz
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>---------------------
>APL201 Survival of the Witless: Antisocial Darwinism in the Academic World
>(by Avalanche Press, Ltd, VA Beach, VA)
>From their flyer, and I quote:
>Survival of the Witless is a fast-playing card game for 3-8 players, ages 10
>and up, in which players attempt to gain the ultimate prize: tenure.
>Players take the role of entry-level professors and attack one another with
>gossip, innuendo, color-neutral mail, and seduction while attempting to avoid
>such pitfalls as teaching awards, eye rape, student support, ideological
>impurity, committee assignments, plagiarism charges and the Race Card.
>
>With enough status and a completed book (it doesn't have to be any good, just
>published), a player can try for a tenure vote. What can bring you status?
>Window office, trophy wife, bold new theories and research grants, to list
>just a few. Tenure committee members may grow upset if you park in their
>space, kill their pet or burn the office coffeemaker. But don't worry about
>the Lousy Teaching card -- it has no effect. Each tenure committee member is
>a unique individual, who may pay more attention to your race, class and
>gender than to your ability or lack thereof. Succeed and you'll never have
>to work again.
End of article quote.
Guess who's now an Instructor, and "living the game?"
Faz
>CREDERE! UBIDDERE! COMBATTERE!
>>Jest thou so easily with Yog?
>
>Oh, no, not at all. It is very difficult to jest with creatures whose name
>is only one syllable
(How true that is, PITT.)
He has other names, but I strongly urge you, for the sake of your sanity
and safety, not to attempt to learn them.
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate.
Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate.
Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth.
He knows through of old, and where They shall break through again.
Private message from France to Master:
It appears that my message to Germany included my orders, but I can't tell
for sure. Is that the way it looks to you?
John
Private message from Russia to Italy:
Loyal Doge
Doubtless you've already 'greased this' with Edi, but be advised: he
intends to sail Alb-Ion this turn, and do 1-on-1 walk-ins to Ser and Gre
with the armies.
I'm NOT saying this to muck things up by throwing out paranoia. I know
in my heart of hearts that Edi is fixated on killing Turkey, and will
not consider the westward movement (army convoy to Apu, seizure of Tun,
etc) that could come from this. I mean, that scenario would then also
see him hit me with Turkey this turn, assuming some A/T collusion.
Again, I don *not* see that happening. I see Ion-Aeg in spring,
combined with Ser and Bul hitting Bul and me hitting Arm/Ank.
So why am I writing, you may ask? Two reasons:
1) As a tried-and-ture no-kidding ally, I want to pass along whatever
else I've heard--to include from other allies.
2) If Edi didn't clue you in, then perhaps there's some collusion going
on. (That's me--always the muckraker!)
Regardless of the above, I'd appreciate you treating this 'discreetly,'
so we can continue our mutual info-sharing??? Thanks, Doge.
On the A/R front: Given Edi's plans, I am pretty much resigned to using
Sev-Arm for the bounce, and support myself to Rum this turn. (or
perhaps support to Arm, and just go Ukr-Rum unsupported...Much depends
on Turkey's intent, so if you hear from him, let me know, ok?). Thanks.
Tsar Faz
Private message from Russia to Germany:
Kaiser Pitt
Greetings on this sunny Monday! Hope you've mulled over my last e-mail
(regarding Scandinavia and France), and hope that life is treating you
well.
Just a short note this go-around....
The assault on Turkey goes well. I'm unsure how to play it further. In
balance-of-power respects, I should now move to Gal and support Sev-Rum
with Black, allowing Turkey egress to Aeg and disrupting the A/I (I'm
sure there is one). From a "feeding frenzy" aspect, though, I should
press on with Edi and try to hit Hohn. In that regard, I could ask Edi
to do: Alb-Gre, Ser S Ukr-Rum, and Bla S Sev-Arm. This gets us
surrounding Hohn, guarantees me Rum (and Edi still gets Gre, as Hohn
will never try for a 1-on-1 bounce with Bul in danger), and keeps
Turkey's coastal provinces occupied/bounced, to prevent a second fleet
build.
Do YOU have any ideas/suggestions? (I mean, I'm generally pushy enough
to 'run" someone else's country when I see a good move for them, so
what's good for the goose, is good for the gander...) One option
ensures chaos down south (everyone still equal and having opportunity),
the other offers A/R growth, but more "A" than "R." It's a tough
call--I mean, I have nothing against Hohn....decisions, decisions.
How about you, Pitt? What's percolating through the Germanic mind? F
Den stands poised to bounce me, or hold Den, or sail to Nth (if you've
decided to "save" France from pincer powers that may next turn on you).
I imagine Kie-Hol (vs Fra, or convoy potential someday), and perhaps
Mun-Ruh??? (doubtful that John will strike for Mun when Bel, Ruh, and
Mar are in danger of being invaded). As with me, you have a variety of
options and concerns to consider; I wish you well in your endeavors!
Drop a line when you get time, ok?
Tsar Faz
Private message from Russia to Austria:
Edi,
Just read this msg; good ideas, as always. (In fact, I opened with your
option Ion-Gre-Ser in a new game start just last month. It provides
many nice options.)
Will indeed make it a guessing game over Arm or Ank. I'm tempted to
either support to Arm, or try to slide into Ank. If you dicuss things
further with Hohn and he seems to be "in your orbit," pass him along
some sort of bum dope, and I'll do the opposite.
Here's to the assault. Even if something doesn't go exactly right in
fall, you and I will still have the death grip on BUL and Aeg next
season, guaranteed.
Faz
Private message from Russia to Austria:
Hi Edi
Thanks for the notes...was beginning to get a bit paranoid myself, not
hearing from you! Hope Houston was enjoyable.
As for the moves: yes indeed, I "missed" a few options. as I said in
the first note, there are indeed "tons" of options out there -- I only
"tunnel-visioned" on the immediate "seam" where our units converged, in
the hopes of denying Hohn a build. The other options you described are
equally (or more) valid than my ideas (altho' I imagine Italy would
cringe if he saw Alb-Ion, for example).
Turkey is indeed upset, and that's fine; I'm not out for popularity
contests. if he's mad because of the amount of "e-mail investment,"
then that's the wrong reason. That's just one way I play the game
(heavy correspondence), and he did everything he should have, by the
book. I just chose you as a partner--nothing to lose sleep over for
him. Still, this can be made into a good advantage for us.
if he offers you support for RUM, let him give it! It'll prevent him
from bothering you, and then it comes down to a guessing game for he and
I over Ank, or Arm. He has already said that he wants me to join him
and move to Gal and Rum (Bla S), and he'd then hit Gre. He also said
that if I hit him, he'd suicide and throw everything against me and help
you. Again, good psychological fodder for us to use against him when
you "offer help" against me. All it takes is a couple turns for us, and
we'll be in a good stranglehold position.
Anyway, that's the quick and dirty for now. Let me know if you have
other ideas/suggestions, and I'll assume we're going the "conservative"
move for our respective centers....
Best
Tsar Faz
Private message from England to Russia:
Tsar Faz,
I haven't heard yet from Germany.
I have heard from Edi, but only (about three hours) after I got your
message last night (Sunday pm). He didn't say much, just gave me some
helpful suggestions on how to proceed against France.
If I strike up any conversation with Turkey, I'll slip your deceptions into
the conversation.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Russia to England:
Hey Guys
Just a quick paranoid-type question from the nervous Tsar...
have either of you heard from Germany or (more importantly) Austria? I =
have been expecting some sort of happy "move in review" from Edi after =
the spring turn, or at least a critique of my move proposals vs Turkey =
.. but I've received nothing since the results! The Kaiser's silence =
also bodes ill, methinks.
OF COURSE, AN EXCESSIVELY PARANOID SCHIZO (NOT ME!!) WOULD SAY THAT AUS =
AND TUR ARE REALLY PULLING THE WOOL OVER US, and that we're all being =
stetched out to allow the noose to slip over us that much quicker.
OK, ok, so I'm over-reacting. Nonetheless, I *am* a tad concerned over =
Edi's quietness, especially given the good results last turn. What have =
you guys heard?
** A favor, please: ** If you talk to Turkey, try and spread the rumor =
that "you've heard from Russia, and he's bantering three options...One =
is allying with Turkey vs Edi, one involves something about Austria =
supporting Bla-Rum (or vice versa), and the last involves a move to =
Ank(!), when Turkey covers Arm this turn." Maybe if one (or both) of =
you feed him some realistic stuff (especially from the "non-involved" =
English), he may indeed open himself up. I promise I'll spread equally =
plausible denial-type stories when you need them. Thanks.
Let me know what you've heard from the Quadripartite Continuum Master =
(Edi) or the Hun-meister; further glories await!
Yours in Alliance
Tsar Faz
Private message from Russia to England:
Gentle King Jamie
Thanks for the missive. I did indeed hear from Edi--twice,
actually--today. He was apparently in Houston on weekend business. Did
much to reduce my paranoia.
Edi is (slightly) risking a build, but making a good tactical move:
Alb-Ion, Tri-Ser, Ser-Gre. Unless Hohn bounces him (Bul-Gre), which he
won't (can't) have the kahunas to do, Edi gets his two AND gets into
position for the move to Aeg and on Bul in spring.
For me, I'm now debating whether to support myself to Arm or to Rum.
Looks like Hohn will go +1 this season, but hopefully it'll be his last.
He's pledged to suicide out against me, which will allow Edi to get the
lion's share (as well as threaten Cal with that F Ion someday), but
that's the perils of the game.
Still no word from Germany, or from Hohn as of late (he's asking me to
join him)...beginning to wonder who's colluding with who....Hopefully
Pitt will make nice and not bother either of us.
The Chronically Nervous Tsar Faz
Private message from England to Austria:
Edi,
Thanks for the tactical advice. Believe me, I've thought about the
possibilities. I have many of them.
At the moment I'm most concerned with Germany's disposition. Since my F Nth
is obviously bound for Nwy, I am worried about F Den-Nth. The problem is
that Pitt has been so quiet that I really have no idea what he's up to; it
could be as simple as covering his ass, as you point out, but it could be
something unpleasanter for me. Having gotten me committed to a strongly
anti-French campaign, and Russia to the south, he might expect to get a
good jump on me by taking Nth. Of course, my comfort is that he'd get only
a single build, what with his A Mun totally out of position. Doesn't seem
very Pitt-like.
Please let me know *anything* you hear from Pitt.
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from France to Germany:
Kaiser, I can surely understand your suspicion toward me. You had one
solid piece of evidence (my preliminary orders) and you went with it. When
you stopped communicating, I figured that's what you'd do, so I played a
defensive opening. You've done a fine job of lining everyone up against
me, too. But I wonder if your interests will be so well served when Italy
and England gain rapidly at my expense while you get next to nothing.
Personally, I think it highly unlikely that they will cut you in for a fair
share. They are natural allies, while you always cause them to worry.
With that in mind, I hope we can reverse the disastrous course we are on.
As you can see, I am in dire straits, so I am open to almost any
constructive suggestion.
France
Private message from Russia to Turkey:
Hi again, Hohn
Well, I've mulled and mulled, and am willing to give it a shot. Of =
course, just as you are (understandably) agitated and apprehensive over =
last season's move, so too am I a tad nervous that you're just trying to =
set me up for the fall.
Nonetheless, I'll move as you suggested, to ensure Rum: Sev-Rum (Bla =
S), Ukr-Gal. =20
I imagine you'll play it conservative: Ank-h, Con S Bul. I would =
*hope* that you don't seriously consider supporting Austrians, or trying =
to cover Arm. While this may seem incredulous or perhaps "pushy" to you =
(not meant to be), I think it provides the best guarantee of security as =
we do the fall turn. You thus get Bul. (If you've really got cast-iron =
kahunas, you'll offer support to Austria, and then hit Gre to deny him =
when he tries to go to Rum...or at least go Con-Aeg--but I don't =
"realistically" expect either of those this turn.)=20
In the truly 'conservative' mode, I get Rum and have a stepping-stone vs =
Aus, and you get Bul and are primed for the sea battles. Ank can sit at =
home (this keeps you from clearing out the place for a second fleet =
build in fall, should you entertain ill thoughts against F Bla), and I =
can clear out Sev, building only armies there (or, if we really get this =
thing in a groove, building nothing there, and doing dirty deeds from =
Warsaw).
In a way, we're both at a decision point. You can either trust me or =
not. If you do, then benefits await. If you don't, then you've wasted =
your proverbial turn (which you always hate to do) just to see my =
intentions. The same applies to me. If I don't strike the Archduke =
now, then I blow the best chance to get into the area, as well as muff a =
chance to make the Observers drop their collective jaws as the =
"unthinkable" R/T materializes out of nowhere. =20
The spring turn was exactly what you wanted to do, Hohn. There's =
nothing (save your distrust) to keep us from executing your plan from =
Winter '00. All I ask is for a reciprocal guarantee (which you've =
Private message from Master to Russia:
Hi, Mark, I'm popping this message back to you because it seemed
to have been cut off at the end (probably just the very last line).
I can see (in my mind's eye) your dart board with my bright shining
face on it asking yourself the question, "why did I let Burgess
talk me into this anyway????" A wilder game could barely be imagined
by me, which means it's sure to get better into the Mid-Game. No boring
stalemated game coming here. I do appreciate all of the effort you
have put into it, if it is any consolation, I had a very similar set
of experiences in ghods (the first demo game in this series). We'll
see how it turns out and I'll tell you more then. About the only
part I think I can tell you is what you already know, that your first
E-Mail game is a a rush and an entirely different experience from any
previous Dip games. Keep track of those experiences. You've been
writing a lot of detail so I can clearly see where you are, but later
you might not be able to remember where you've been, if you get my
drift....
Jim
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to Turkey in 'ghodstoo':
>
> Hi again, Hohn
> Well, I've mulled and mulled, and am willing to give it a shot. Of =
> course, just as you are (understandably) agitated and apprehensive over =
> last season's move, so too am I a tad nervous that you're just trying to =
> set me up for the fall.
>
> Nonetheless, I'll move as you suggested, to ensure Rum: Sev-Rum (Bla =
> S), Ukr-Gal. =20
>
> I imagine you'll play it conservative: Ank-h, Con S Bul. I would =
> *hope* that you don't seriously consider supporting Austrians, or trying =
> to cover Arm. While this may seem incredulous or perhaps "pushy" to you =
> (not meant to be), I think it provides the best guarantee of security as =
> we do the fall turn. You thus get Bul. (If you've really got cast-iron =
> kahunas, you'll offer support to Austria, and then hit Gre to deny him =
> when he tries to go to Rum...or at least go Con-Aeg--but I don't =
> "realistically" expect either of those this turn.)=20
>
> In the truly 'conservative' mode, I get Rum and have a stepping-stone vs =
> Aus, and you get Bul and are primed for the sea battles. Ank can sit at =
> home (this keeps you from clearing out the place for a second fleet =
> build in fall, should you entertain ill thoughts against F Bla), and I =
> can clear out Sev, building only armies there (or, if we really get this =
> thing in a groove, building nothing there, and doing dirty deeds from =
> Warsaw).
>
> In a way, we're both at a decision point. You can either trust me or =
> not. If you do, then benefits await. If you don't, then you've wasted =
> your proverbial turn (which you always hate to do) just to see my =
> intentions. The same applies to me. If I don't strike the Archduke =
> now, then I blow the best chance to get into the area, as well as muff a =
> chance to make the Observers drop their collective jaws as the =
> "unthinkable" R/T materializes out of nowhere. =20
>
> The spring turn was exactly what you wanted to do, Hohn. There's =
> nothing (save your distrust) to keep us from executing your plan from =
> Winter '00. All I ask is for a reciprocal guarantee (which you've =
>
Private message from Turkey to Germany:
Pitt,
Well, I'm sorry to hear it.
Jeez...now I know how a leper feels. ;)
Hohn
Private message from England to Austria:
Finally got word from Pitt.
The original plan looks like it's still intact. Good luck with your Turkey;
I'll be waiting eagerly for your arrival in Munich.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Russia to Germany:
Pitt
Many thanks for the long-awaited note! Paranoia running as rampant as
it is here in Russia, I began to worry when I didn't hear from you. So
I'm "happy" that it was due to mechanical problems (you catch my drift
here, I'm sure...better hardware problems than evil intent).
Ref the historynet info: what prize did you win in Jan? Yes indeed,
I'm a history buff--was my Undergrad major in college, and the thrust of
my Masters. I was one of those scrawny teenagers who played wargames,
read Sgt Rock comic books, and preferred a history book to a date for
tjhe prom (Mom always worried about me...). It's a love-in.
For the game:
I'll be up-front with you: I can't commit to building a F StP(nc) yet.
The reason: I'm unsure as to the south. Originally this started out as
an A/R vs T thing, but now I'm hearing that Hohn is offering Edi support
to Rum. Is it bluff? Hohn propaganda designed to defuse the threat?
Truth? Don't know! Even if A/R remain together on this, what happens
if I try for Arm, and Turkey gets bold enough to bounce me in Rum (I
plan to go there unsupported, and move Sev-Arm, Bla S)? He
could--theoretically--bounce me in both RUM and ARM, giving me just one
build (Swe), and forcing me to do a full-court press down south. A
Fleet StP(nc) IMMEDIATELY sends the red flag to England and commits me
to a possible two-front war-- with me unsure as to (a) the quickness (or
inevitability) of Turkey's demise, and (b) no knowledge of how chummy
these guys are all. Overstretched and unsupported.
Tell you what, though: depending on Turkey's dance with me, and what
E/I finally do with France, I'll consent to a HEAVY consideration of
building "north" (Mos/StP) as a balance to their growing power. It's
not exactly what you want, and it still sends bad ju-ju vibes to
England, but I'll look at it with great detail. I want a balance up
north, Pitt.
That desire for "balance" led me to ask about your French intentions.
If you're joining in the feast of French flesh, then all's ok, *until*
E/I lick their chops for their next, adjacent neighbor--you. Hence my
desire for a "sure" build (Swe), to both reduce Turkey and provide some
needed counterweight to the north. As a Russian, I have a great belief
in the survival of G and I in games, but with the possible unbridled
growth of the Doge (could there even be an E/I/A or combination
thereof?), your security now becomes "mind-melded" with mine. Hortas
included.
I hope this didn't sound like the "brush-off" to you, ref StP. I will
help you, and I do want growth and cooperation, Pitt. For 1901 and
maybe early 1902, we can afford to putz around with the Frances and
Turkeys, but the builds from '01 will allow me to concentrate up there
with you as we get into the early mid-game (or when the threat to us
becomes so blatant as to warrant action).
THANK YOU for Sweden, and count on continued Russian friendship.
Tsar Faz
Private message from England to Germany:
Whew.
I was getting nervous.
OK, then we're still on. Good, I would really hate to waste such a
successful stab of France by changing my target instantly :).
Your options are limited, what with that army stuck in Mun. The obvious
move is just Mun-Bur, Kie-Hol, Den H. I can't see anything better.
You might discuss things with Italy, especially that Mun-Bur move. France
surely must order Bur-Mar; if Italy orders Pie H, then France can't build F
Mar (so that's good for Italy) and you'll be in Burgundy, which is
obviously your only entry point. If Bre is open in the Winter, France would
probably build a fleet there, but I can deal with that if you guys are set
to crawl all over his other territory, and you would be.
Let's see. I think I'd like to get plans a bit clearer for the future, so
as to avoid the sort of uncomfortableness I've been having about your Den
move. (For a short while I actually thought you might be planning Den-Nth,
since I'm obviously going to try to vacate Nth. But then I realized you'd
only get one build, and if you then built a fleet, you'd be skinned alive
next year. That realization made me very happy.)
For the winter, I would be glad if you didn't build F Kie. If you have any
winter requests for me, let me know and I'll entertain them.
If it's all the same to you, I guess I won't say what my plans for the
current moves are. There are many options for me, any one of which would be
fine if I guess right. I have to gauge how France is feeling. If it were me
under this kind of attack, I think I'd go to Spain and Portugal and hope
not to lose Brest. Then I'd dig in and do what I could do avoid
annihilation, hoping that someone would change courses in time to save me.
But, the alternative of trying to punish England is also something to
consider; Bur-Bel, MAO-Bre, Mar-Bur?
Thinking ahead:
It would be really nice to make very short work of France, since the
southeast looks like it will settle out rapidly (unless Turkey gets some
lucky guesses). I guess I see it this way. What we *don't* want is a
concerted I/R/A effort to cross the stalemate line in Gibraltar and swarm
all over you through the center. With peace between G and E, any other
further alignment seems ok to me. We could do you and me against Russia, me
by sea and you by land, with Italy facing off against Austria. Then we'd
choose which one of A or I to help a bit; either a fleet of mine bothering
Italy, or an army of yours nagging Austria. Or we could have you and Russia
teaming up on Austria with me bashing away against Italy around Gibraltar;
not too promising, really, but ultimately ok if the team can stick together
long enough. Maybe best of all would be to have you, me, and Edi allied and
working toward an endgame. That would work very well *if* Austria starts
building fleets right away, otherwise you and he would get in one another's
way too much, I think.
We'll have to see how the other players seem disposed.
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Russia to Austria:
Hi again Edi
While I probably know the answer to this even before I write, let me go
ahead and (re)propose the question to you, just for grins:
Any chance you'd consider using Serbia to support my Ukr-Rum?
I ask for a variety of reasons:
1) Our main goal is the rapid reduction of Turkey, right? Seems to me
we'd go a lot more toward that objective if we had me support Sev-Arm
with Black Sea, and had you support me to Rum. (Remember, I stand a
good chance of being bounced in Sweden. Turkey thinks he's allied with
me--or says he is--and if he tries to get cute and go Bul-Rum, then I
could, just could, go zero builds in '01.)
2) Me using the "sure" move of Sev-Rum (Ukr S) is ok, but, as in #1
above, doesn't give us the rapid, full effect of being simultaneously in
Rum, Ser, Bla and Arm. Even Alb-Ion still means two turns to get into
the Turk hinterland, whereas Arm is already there.
3) Originally I was hesitant to ask you, because I assumed Ser S
Alb-Gre. But if you're just going to Gre unsupported anyway, then
you'll still get your two (Ser and Gre)...you just won't have the F Ion.
4) And, to repeat something from last note, if we're serious about
hitting Germany with your Tri-Tyo, Vie-Boh plan (and I need a build if
I'm putting something in War to help!), then you *already* have the A
Tri in-place. You could "hold" there and obfuscate everyone's view of
what's going on vis a vis Italy and you, and STILL move "as planned" in
S02, no?
I don't know, maybe I'm just getting paranoid. But Turkey says he
accepts my "offer of alliance" (I told him I'm moving Ukr-Gal, Bla S
Sev-Rum). He says he "might" tap me in Bla, as well as "might" move to
Arm...doesn't know yet. Is this all bluff, and will he just hold in Bul
with support? Anybody's guess. (Wouldn't hurt if you 'accepted' his
offer of Ser-Rum.)
I just envision a sharp Turk trying to "one-up" me and bouncing an
unsupported RUM move while also moving to Arm in the hopes of a bounce,
and then I'm SOL **and** our blitz slows down appreciably...all when it
could've been avoided by some timely Serbian support.
Of course, that's the view from St Petersburg...I was just curious what
the view is from Vienna? Does any of this make sense and/or strike a
sympathetic chord?
Tsar Faz
Private message from Germany to Russia:
Faz,
Hello again. Long time no word for the German front, eh? I apologize for
my extended silence. I had ISP/email problems from before the last turn
processed until just after and, since then, I have been swamped at work and
I've just not had time to do much. I am now able to get back in the swing
and I hope that my unavoidable absence will not harm our relationship in
any way.
Now to reply to your last:
>Greetings again! I see that not only are we Dip "neighbors," but also
>fellow History buffs. (You won the historynet.com Daily Quiz for a week
>in January; I am, indeed, duly impressed, having missed more than my
>share of the more arcane questions....) Good show!
Thank you. I am indeed a history buff and I'm pleased to find that you
are, as well. Regarding the Star Trek question I asked you previously, the
Horta was a rock-eating, tunnel-making, acid-spitting creature in an early
ST episode. It was killing Federation miners for no apparent reason. The
Enterprise crew was called in to assist and were trying to find it and kill
it when Spock mind-melded with it (first use of mind-meld) and discovered
that it was killing miners because they were destroying its eggs (silicon
spheres found throughout the tunnels and previously thought to be worthless).
Aren't you glad you asked...;-)
>Your opening move could be construed as pro-E
Yes...
>anti-R
Not at all (no matter how much Tiurkey keeps trying to get me to agree to
bounce you in SWE).
>merely CYA
Yep!
>Anyway, Pitt, I'm hoping there is still no problem regarding Swedish
>ownership for the Tsar?
No problem at all. In fact, let me go you one better. Given the sudden
development of the EI, I am a bit concerned about my long term relationship
with England. If France does indeed die a quick death, I may well be
caught between the EI pincer. I'd prefer to have another ally willing to
come to my aid - that is, Russia, sweeping in from the north. To that end,
I'd like to see one of your 1901 builds be a fleet STP/nc. What do you think?
>Either he's [John] a *very* good actor who's hiding the real story, or
>he's truly abjectly demoralized and defeated already.
Jury's out here. I've had word that there is a secret EF and that the
opening was a ruse designed to reinforce France's "plight". On the other
hand, Italy's opening looks to counter that rumor. I'm taking the "wait
and see" approach.
>Bottom line: I always wish G/R peace; I always wish Swe (yuk yuk); and
>I always stand ready to assist you if needed/desired.
My sentiments exactly. Please let me know what you think about my
suggestion above.
-KaiserPitt
Private message from Germany to Italy:
Cal,
Hello again. Long time no word for the German front, eh? I apologize for
my extended silence. I had ISP/email problems from before the last turn
processed until just after and, since then, I have been swamped at work and
I've just not had time to do much. I am now able to get back in the swing
and I hope that my unavoidable absence will not harm our relationship in
any way.
Now to reply to your last:
>It sure seems to me that France's goose is cooked. His press seems to
>suggest he's about to crawl into a fetal ball and die. Has he written
>to yoy? He certainly hasn't sent me anything.
Yes, he sent me a message in a similar vein. I agree that it looks that
way but, I have to tell you, I have my doubts about it. I have heard from
two (unreliable?) sources that there is a secret EF and the English opening
was a ruse to reinforce France's plight. France's moanings and groanings
only serve to make me more suspicious. On the other hand, E, F & I all
opened anti-France, so maybe France really is in a pickle. I'm going to
play it safe and see what happens.
>I was wondering if you have any preference about moves in F'02. My gut
>feeling is to try and hit Marseilles in hopes of preventing a build
I think that's a good idea regardless of whatever els ehappens. So long as
you don't feel a need to be concerned about Austria, you should hit France
hard. If he and England are allied, I'll be there to help. If they're
not, the three of us can make short work of France and move on to other
pursuits.
-KaiserPitt
Private message from Germany to France:
John,
Hello again. Long time no word for the German front, eh? I apologize for
my extended silence. I had ISP/email problems from before the last turn
processed until just after and, since then, I have been swamped at work and
I've just not had time to do much. I am now able to get back in the swing
and I hope that my unavoidable absence will not harm our relationship in
any way.
Now to reply to your last:
>Kaiser, I can surely understand your suspicion toward me. You had one
>solid piece of evidence (my preliminary orders) and you went with it.
Well, that and the fact that you didn't reply when I sent it back to you
saying I saw it but was still open minded. I interpreted your lack of
response as a guilty conscience.
>When you stopped communicating, I figured that's what you'd do, so I played a
>defensive opening.
Looks like we both had suspicions that could have been allayed by better
communications. I apologize for contributing to them.
>You've done a fine job of lining everyone up against
>me, too. But I wonder if your interests will be so well served when Italy
>and England gain rapidly at my expense while you get next to nothing.
I wonder that, too. Especially since England was primarily responsible for
lining up Italy, not me...
>With that in mind, I hope we can reverse the disastrous course we are on.
I'm open. What do you have in mind?
-KaiserPitt
Private message from Germany to Turkey:
Hohn,
Hello again. Long time no word for the German front, eh? I apologize for
my extended silence. I had ISP/email problems from before the last turn
processed until just after and, since then, I have been swamped at work and
I've just not had time to do much. I am now able to get back in the swing
and I hope that my unavoidable absence will not harm our relationship in
any way.
Now to reply to your last:
>Wow, nice gangbang of France! I imagine he feels even worse than me
>right now! :)
Well, one can hope that he will at least feel more tractable than he did
before...
>Good luck in the West, Pitt.
Thank you. I wish you the same in the south.
>And please, bounce Russia from Sweden.
Oh, yeah, I almost forgot...
No can do, I'm afraid. I could just let you believe I will and then not
follow through but I'd prefer to be honest with you. It's not out of the
question that I might be facing an EI in the not too distant future. Given
that, the last thing I can afford to do right now is antagonize Russia. On
the other hand, if Austria were putting pressure on Italy...
-KaiserPitt
Private message from Germany to England:
Jamie,
Hello again. Long time no word for the German front, eh? I apologize for
my extended silence. I had ISP/email problems from before the last turn
processed until just after and, since then, I have been swamped at work and
I've just not had time to do much. I am now able to get back in the swing
and I hope that my unavoidable absence will not harm our relationship in
any way.
Now to reply to your last:
>Why Kie-Den? Why not to Hol? Now no Belgium.
>Maybe you were frightened of Russia. Maybe you didn't believe I'd go to the
>Channel.
I was concerned about both possibilities and I decided to hedge my bets. I
hope that won't be seen as anything but prudent play in a game with players
of this caliber.
>As you see, Italy decided to join. As you see, I felt I needed a little
>help, seeing as how you weren't pledging yours.
I have no problem with that. I welcome the assistance.
>Are we still in business?
We are as far as I'm concerned. I hope you feel the same way. Pleae let
me know what you think and what you'd liek to do.
-KaiserPitt
Private message from Russia to Italy:
Loyal Doge (good thing we put an "e" at the end of it, huh?)
Thanks for your two e-mails. Much of what i wrote is obviously OBE by
now (Overtaken By Events). Turkey has accepted my "request for
alliance" (cackle), or at least SAYS he will. Plans on "possibly"
covering Arm and "possibly" tapping Bla--he doesn't know yet. All
bluff? Who knows? I'll either support myself to Rum for one sure build
(may need to, given Germany's threat over Swe) or gamble and support to
Arm (the better move). Sure would've been nice if Edi could've provided
support to Rum from Ser...if he was really serious about finishing off
the Turk quickly, that's what I would've done--especially as he's going
to try for Gre with just one piece anyway!
Yeah, my paranoia seems misguided, given that he told you about the
fleet to Ion. As long as we're all singing from the same sheet of music
here...
Not much else for now. Guessing game between me and the Turk, and
anxiously awaiting any info from the Kaiser...most unsettling with him.
Take it easy, Cal, and let's hope for even better '01 success. Any
word from your French target, I mean, buddy? heh heh
Tsar faz
Private message from Russia to Turkey:
Hi Hohn
Thanks for the note and the decision! Just a couple quick comments (I
have to run off to teach):
> I can
>promise you, however, that if I decide to tap F BLA, I will
>also order BUL S UKR-RUM, so that UKR-RUM will succeed even
>if Edi orders SER-RUM, as he's been considering. I can also
>promise you that if I end up in ARM at the end of this turn,
>and if you've done as you've said, then I'll definitely
build F SMY and demilitarize ARM immediately thereafter.
1) If I'm moving _Sev_-Rum, shouldn't BUL be supporting him? Or do you
want me hanging around in Sev and not moving Ukr-_Gal_?
2) I have serious doubts that Edi is mulling over any RUm move, unless
you guys have been planning this double whammy all along. In fact, the
current plan is for us to either hit BUL, (forcing you to support Bul
with Con while Edi goes Alb-Gre) or for Edi to support me to Rum while I
support myself to Arm, thus completing the garrot. (He is a lot more
anti-T than his 1901 moves indicate, as you're probably discovering.)
Still, any diplomacy is possible, and hey, never hurts to try. I may
be the one to wake up with a blade in my back!
3) The Armenia move option is, in my opinion, less than optimal, and
raises the paranoia hackles probably moreso than needed. Nonetheless,
you're within your (trust) perogative to go where you deem necessary.
I'll take it with a grain of salt.
Ok, then, you've got my moves, and I've got an inkling of your intent.
Italy is indeed off carousing vs France, so perhaps now's the time to
go. If there's any last-minute stuff needing clarified, or if the urge
arises, I'll write again before the moves, I'm sure.
Take care, Hohn. here's to surprising the pundits!
Tsar Faz
Private message from Italy to Master:
Edi Birsan wrote:
>
> The move to Ionian combined with the line up of the armies on Bularia is the
> way to go. this allows for both Bulgaria and Aegean to fall in the Spring of
> 02.
>
> I know it makes you nervous but I am pretty sure that the long term deal here
> is going to be us two as Russia and England will be:
> 1. too greedy
> 2. too isolated
> 3. too e-mailish
>
> Anyway I think we have to rally the postal players and show the young
> whippersnappers how to play this game.
Admittedly, the move to Ionian (and for that matter your move to
Trieste) did make me
nervous, but as I said in the last message, you're not going to attack
me for one centre and the overall strategy you've outlined is solid for
the long term. I'm in.
> I had thought that you were going to convoy Army Tuscany to Tunis. This would
> give you the ability to move F tyn to Lyon right away and threaten Spain and
> Marselles.
I just wanted to see what you had planned for the Trieste army. I'm
satisfied that it's going to Serbia, so I'll go ahead and convoy. That
is definitely the better positional move.
> Further I think the move into Mar might work so the double fleets would be
> better off with one of them following me into the Ion as I go for the East.
Sounds good to me. Let's hear it for the OLD whippersnappers! :)
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to Italy in 'ghodstoo':
>
> Loyal Doge
Whenever you or England call me this, my mind's eye pronounces it as
"Dogey"
and I start looking for cowboys to come round me up...
> Doubtless you've already 'greased this' with Edi, but be advised: he
> intends to sail Alb-Ion this turn, and do 1-on-1 walk-ins to Ser and Gre
> with the armies.
Yeah, he told me. I was surprised because I wasn't expecting this, but
I've
told him to go ahead. If Edi plans to stab me, it won't be for one
lousy
centre.
> I'm NOT saying this to muck things up by throwing out paranoia. I know
> in my heart of hearts that Edi is fixated on killing Turkey, and will
> not consider the westward movement (army convoy to Apu, seizure of Tun,
> etc) that could come from this. I mean, that scenario would then also
> see him hit me with Turkey this turn, assuming some A/T collusion.
> Again, I don *not* see that happening. I see Ion-Aeg in spring,
> combined with Ser and Bul hitting Bul and me hitting Arm/Ank.
I agree. Of course, we could be wrong, but my gut feeling tells me
we're cool.
> So why am I writing, you may ask? Two reasons:
> 1) As a tried-and-ture no-kidding ally, I want to pass along whatever
> else I've heard--to include from other allies.
Aww, that's sooooo sweet... grin
> 2) If Edi didn't clue you in, then perhaps there's some collusion going
> on. (That's me--always the muckraker!)
Yeah, but he has clued me in. Hopefully, that's a good sign.
> Regardless of the above, I'd appreciate you treating this 'discreetly,'
> so we can continue our mutual info-sharing??? Thanks, Doge.
Yippee ki-yo and yee haw and all that. No problem. I haven't heard
anything I could pass along as I've only heard from our fellow
Q Continuumers.
> On the A/R front: Given Edi's plans, I am pretty much resigned to using
> Sev-Arm for the bounce, and support myself to Rum this turn. (or
> perhaps support to Arm, and just go Ukr-Rum unsupported...Much depends
> on Turkey's intent, so if you hear from him, let me know, ok?). Thanks.
I'm pretty sure that Hohn will simply support himself in Bulgaria this
turn
but it probably depends on how panicky he feels right now. If he wants
to
merely shit-disturb, it might be impossible to predict his moves. I'd
probably try to take Rum unsupported and force Armenia, but it would be
a
gamble and with Germany in Sweden... hmmm
Speaking of Germany, I still haven't heard from him. Nada. Rien.
Zilch.
And there's no "can't access the net on weekends" excuse. Maybe he just
hasn't gotten around to it, but I'll let you know if I hear from him
Later
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
Edi Birsan wrote:
> Well I look it over and I can not see that Hohn will gamble on Bulgaria so I
> am up for going to Greece-Ion and Serbia.
Must admit I did a double take when I saw "Ionian" in that sentence...
I didn't know that was part of the plan, but I am assuming that fleet
will be heading to Aeg or Eas, no? (not that you'd tell me if it was
headed for Nap...grin) If so, I have no problem with this. You're not
going to stab me for one lousy centre! As for the whole of your moves,
I agree with your obvious guesstimate that Hohn will simply support
Bulgaria in place. Go for it.
> I've looked at the west and I figure that there is a chance that French might
> play for Munich or Belgium and risk a double think by you on the Marseilles
> front so I urge you to consider the move straigth in.
That's about what I figured to do. I don't see him moving Bur-Mar
because that would imply his total retribution against me. I don't
think he has any more reason to be mad at me than at England or Germany.
> If you get one build make it F Nap if two then F Nap and F Rom.
Agreed.
> I will be doing the Army vien-tri thing to plough into Germany.
Cool. I'll be holding my army in Venice (currently in Tuscany) until
such time as you say you need it (that is, until you need the unit, NOT
Venice...heh heh).
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to Italy and England in
> 'ghodstoo':
{Part about Edi's "silence" snipped since I have now heard from him. I
was never worried about it as I figured that he may not have weekend
Internet access.)
> ** A favor, please: ** If you talk to Turkey, try and spread the rumor =
> that "you've heard from Russia, and he's bantering three options...One =
> is allying with Turkey vs Edi, one involves something about Austria =
> supporting Bla-Rum (or vice versa), and the last involves a move to =
> Ank(!), when Turkey covers Arm this turn." Maybe if one (or both) of =
> you feed him some realistic stuff (especially from the "non-involved" =
> English), he may indeed open himself up. I promise I'll spread equally =
> plausible denial-type stories when you need them. Thanks.
Doubt if he'll listen to me, but I'll try.
Cal
Private message from Turkey to Russia:
Mark,
> right to defend myself tactically as I best see fit. I can
> promise you, however, that if I decide to tap F BLA, I will
> also order BUL S UKR-RUM, so that UKR-RUM will succeed even
> if Edi orders SER-RUM, as he's been considering. I can also
Gah. I'm an idiot. I will support SEV-RUM if I decide to
tap BLA, of course. UKR would be going to GAL under our
proposal. Momentary lapse of reason, my apologies for any
confusion.
Hohn
Private message from Turkey to Russia:
Mark,
I received your most recent message with pleasure. I hope
we can work things out. To this end, I am prepared to offer
you certain assurances.
I am, of course, going to cover my ass. I'm not certain in
what manner I will do so yet. And in light of your Spring
1901 moves, I'm afraid I'm going to have to reserve the
right to defend myself tactically as I best see fit. I can
promise you, however, that if I decide to tap F BLA, I will
also order BUL S UKR-RUM, so that UKR-RUM will succeed even
if Edi orders SER-RUM, as he's been considering. I can also
promise you that if I end up in ARM at the end of this turn,
and if you've done as you've said, then I'll definitely
build F SMY and demilitarize ARM immediately thereafter. I
think we both realize that the presence of A ARM will be no
threat to you, what with you sitting in BLA. I'm of course
not saying that I _will_ move there. It might all be a moot
point. But I have to reserve the right to do so, to keep
you guessing in case you decide to stab me again.
I hope you can live with those conditions, Mark. I'm just
trying to be as honest and forthright with you as possible,
in an effort to build future trust. I could have just
agreed not to, and then done it anyway, but I don't want to
do that. I want to put us back on decent footing.
It makes sense for us to work together, Mark. Italy is off
on his own, busy against France. Together, the two of us
can take Edi out. That's inevitable; it'll just take some
time. Meanwhile, if you go against me, it's a guessing
game. If I get to build, you're going to have a hell of a
time cracking me, unless you get Edi's help, and even then,
I'll do my best to see that he gets the lion's share.
There's also no guarantee that Edi will go with you instead
of me. We can effectively take him out of the equation
completely if we work together. It's a much better bet if
you and I work together, IMO, Mark.
Besides...in this demo game, wouldn't it be great to shock
all of the observers? It'd be icing on the cake! ;)
Hohn
Private message from Russia to Italy:
Hi guys
Well, heard from the German...his computer was down, and then he had
weekend/weekday work. All is well and he's "back in the saddle,"
apparently.
*CONFIDENTIAL* He asked me if I'd consider building F StP(nc), given
the apparent E/I forming. I told him that my heart's with him, but that
I have bigger fish to fry than starting an unprovoked war with England.
So you guys seem to have at least attracted his attention (either that,
or he's trolling for leads and links by testing my reaction). I asked
him his policy toward France, but don't expect much of a reply. His
builds will be the interesting indicator...
Have asked Edi--again--to consider using Ser S Ukr-Rum. I mean, if
Edi's only using Alb-Ion and Ser-Gre (i.e., unsupported advances), then
why not still go unsupported to Gre (Alb-Gre), use Ser to support the
sure gain to Rum, and let me support Sev-Arm? We'd have Turkey locked
down tighter than a drum, and more quickly than Alb-Ion, Ion-Aeg,
Aeg-wherever, under his plan. I expect an enthusiastic reply (here, let
me remove my tongue from the cheek area). Given a probable negative
reply, I intend on supporting myself to Rum for at least ONE sure 1901
build (in the event Germany bounces me in Swe). I'll then make a guess
on Armenia...maybe bounce Ank-Arm and thus keep the coastal ports closed
for a second Turk fleet build. Any verbal pro-Russian cheerleading you
guys can do to Edi would be appreciated. I would like something in
1901, and if we're going to polish off all comers, the quicker we get
into position, the better.
No word from F or T as of late. Hohn did reply (last msg) that he's
ready to ally, and expects me to honorably go to Gal and Rum this turn,
with him reserving the right to hold, move to Arm, or even hit me in
Bla, to be safe....sigh, nothing is easy.
Other than that, not much to tell. Germany seems to be going with the
flow--no aggressive intent, a lot of CYA, etc etc...time will tell if
that's really the case.
I just hope you guys can kill France quickly, so you can turn about and
help me out. I don't think Hohn's going down quick, and Edi may be out
more for himself than for the good of an A/R. We'll see.
Any news, views, or commentary?
Tsar Faz
Private message from France to Germany:
What do I have in mind? Hmm. Good question. How about if we start this
game over? ;-/
Seriously, about all I need is to be left alone in Burgundy. Perhaps, if
IE see a more formidable defense than they expected, they'll have a falling
out. Of course, we can encourage such a happestance as well.
OTOH, if you were to try for Nth, things could become really
interesting....
France
---------------------------------------------------
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Private message from Italy to Master:
Hi guy! Finally heard from Germany. He seemed a little concerned about
what would happen after France is crippled so I asked him how he felt
about him and I moving on England. If he will swallow this, you'll have
an easier time against him when you make your moves to Boh & Sil.
Anything else new to relate?
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as England to Italy and Russia in
> 'ghodstoo':
> Until/unless further notice, I'll be proceeding on the assumption that
> Germany is friendly.
I think that's safe for the next turn or two. Once France is definitely
on the way down, we'll have to watch for him. Of course, that will be
the best time for Edi to hit him.
> But all of this is more or less according to plan, after all. If Edi
> carries through with the promised moves against Munich, everything ought to
> be fine. As I imagine it, Cal and I would finish off France, I would jump
> in against Germany at the opportune moment (Spring '03?), and if possible
> Cal would wait until after I've done that to begin any campaign against
> Austria. In the mean time, Faz is finishing off Turkey, jumping in against
> Germany either right away ('02, when Edi attacks) or shortly after ('03,
> when I attack), and then opens another front against Austria when Cal does.
>
> Timing will be fairly important, as Mark has noted. There will be
> resentment among the three of us, I suspect, if (say) one of you leaves the
> other to fight Austria alone for long (or if Mark or I should leave the
> other struggling with Germany). Come to think of it, I may be wrong about
> the proper timing. Maybe it's best if Cal hits Austria at just the same
> time that I hit Germany. Hm. Well, we'll cross that bridge later, I guess.
My best guess as to what the perfect timing would be is like this:
1- France and Turkey down to few enough centres that they are not
factors.
2- Edi goes north to Boh, Sil.
3- Germany turns around from France to defend against Edi.
4- Just as they reach full involvement (or close) we hit both of them.
Ideally, England will have the biggest impact, hitting Pitt from behind
with the lateral attacks on Edi by I/R having much the same effect.
We'll obviously be playing it by ear, but these are probably the signs
to watch for.
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to England and Italy in
> 'ghodstoo':
>
> *CONFIDENTIAL* He asked me if I'd consider building F StP(nc), given
> the apparent E/I forming. I told him that my heart's with him, but that
> I have bigger fish to fry than starting an unprovoked war with England.
> So you guys seem to have at least attracted his attention (either that,
> or he's trolling for leads and links by testing my reaction). I asked
> him his policy toward France, but don't expect much of a reply. His
> builds will be the interesting indicator...
I've just opened "negotiations" with Pitt re: what happens AFTER France
falls. I've asked for his slant on this, but hinted that I didn't see
England as a long term ally. So the smoke screens start... :)
> Have asked Edi--again--to consider using Ser S Ukr-Rum. I mean, if
> Edi's only using Alb-Ion and Ser-Gre (i.e., unsupported advances), then
> why not still go unsupported to Gre (Alb-Gre), use Ser to support the
> sure gain to Rum, and let me support Sev-Arm? We'd have Turkey locked
> down tighter than a drum, and more quickly than Alb-Ion, Ion-Aeg,
> Aeg-wherever, under his plan. I expect an enthusiastic reply (here, let
> me remove my tongue from the cheek area). Given a probable negative
> reply, I intend on supporting myself to Rum for at least ONE sure 1901
> build (in the event Germany bounces me in Swe). I'll then make a guess
> on Armenia...maybe bounce Ank-Arm and thus keep the coastal ports closed
> for a second Turk fleet build. Any verbal pro-Russian cheerleading you
> guys can do to Edi would be appreciated. I would like something in
> 1901, and if we're going to polish off all comers, the quicker we get
> into position, the better.
I suspect you're right about Edi's response, but who knows. The way he
turns you down may be interesting.
> Any news, views, or commentary?
Yeah, I think I'd better quit my job just so I can keep up with the
flood of daytime mail you guys put out... grin
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as Germany to Italy in 'ghodstoo':
> Hello again. Long time no word for the German front, eh? I apologize for
> my extended silence. I had ISP/email problems from before the last turn
> processed until just after and, since then, I have been swamped at work and
> I've just not had time to do much. I am now able to get back in the swing
> and I hope that my unavoidable absence will not harm our relationship in
> any way.
I just figured it was a weekend net access sorta thing. :)
> Now to reply to your last:
>
> >It sure seems to me that France's goose is cooked. His press seems to
> >suggest he's about to crawl into a fetal ball and die. Has he written
> >to you? He certainly hasn't sent me anything.
>
> Yes, he sent me a message in a similar vein. I agree that it looks that
> way but, I have to tell you, I have my doubts about it. I have heard from
> two (unreliable?) sources that there is a secret EF and the English opening
> was a ruse to reinforce France's plight. France's moanings and groanings
> only serve to make me more suspicious. On the other hand, E, F & I all
> opened anti-France, so maybe France really is in a pickle. I'm going to
> play it safe and see what happens.
It's certainly possible that there's an E/F extant, but I'd be surprised
if it were so. France seems really uninvolved in what's going on in the
game. He and I talked very early in the game and decided on
non-aggression
(well...) and then, several days later he wrote and asked me why we
hadn't
talked. Seems to me that's a pretty good sign in inattention...
> >I was wondering if you have any preference about moves in F'02. My gut
> >feeling is to try and hit Marseilles in hopes of preventing a build
>
> I think that's a good idea regardless of whatever els ehappens. So long as
> you don't feel a need to be concerned about Austria, you should hit France
> hard. If he and England are allied, I'll be there to help. If they're
> not, the three of us can make short work of France and move on to other
> pursuits.
I agree. Now, do you have any suggestions as to what those other
pursuits
should be? :)
Cal
Private message from England to Russia:
COMPLICATED PLANS FOR SCENARIOS WITH A RELATIVELY SMALL PROBABILITY OF EVER
OCCURRING: A SERIES
Volume XII: Jumping Germany
>Do we jump Pitt and Edi before John and Hohn are finished?
>Seems like that only gives them common cause and a united front. But if
>we wait too long, then A and/or G are fairly strong anyway...This won't
>be easy.
The main thing to keep in mind is this. At the moment Germany is attacked,
we have to consider any remaining French units to be German by proxy. The
earlier the jump, the larger the surprise element. Earlier: more 'proxied'
units for Germany to use, more surprise. Too early, power of proxied units
outweighs element of surprise. Too late, lost surprise not made good by
extra Italo-English units.
Solution:
Plot Surprise element vs. Time and on the same sheet of graph paper, Proxy
Power vs. Time. Jump 'im where the curves cross. :-)
(I really should have been an economist. I have a flair for utterly useless
formalisms.)
Volume XXXI: Jumping Austria
>Not to be
>overly Machiavellian here, as Edi IS currently a loyal and indispensible
>ally...
Be no more, but no less, Machiavellian than he. (That ought to be enough
for anyone.)
>But if and when we jump him, I recommend (a) simultaneous I/R
>hits (or else a one-turn delay, so we can play "good cop-bad cop" and
>get him to overrely on his secondary stabber), and (b) we do all this
>AFTER Edi takes the lead in traipsing through Boh and Tyo.
Good point. We'd like to have as many Austrian and German units drawn
toward the center of the board as possible, since we'll be attacking at the
peripheries. A large gathering of German-speaking armies around Munich
would be ideal.
> We should
>have a field day in either coddling (or setting up) the astonished Hun
>for a stab, or for proxy wars 'with us," while we plot their joint doom.
Indeed. Say anything. I'll be busy 'plotting' with Germany to go after
Scandinavia and Warsaw; you (Mark) conversely to attack me in Scand. and
the northern seas and through France. And lots of other smoke, too; I'll
have to be telling everyone who'll listen about my 'plans' to cross through
the Straits of Gibraltar. We'll have to do this. Pitt certainly isn't going
to wait quietly for France and Turkey to fall, expecting to take on two or
three neighbors at once thereafter. He's going to want to have some
assurance that he'll be on a good team for the next stage. Likewise Edi. If
he thinks Italy and England will finish France and sail *away* from
Gibraltar, he's practically guaranteed to strike (Italy) first.
I guess planning for Scenarios with Small Probability is the only way to
boost that probability.
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Russia to England:
Gentle Rulers
In reply to Jamie's note, I would state the obvious and say that "timing
is everything" as regards I/R hits on A, and E/R/A hits on G. MUCH (if
not everything) depends on how fast (and to what extent) F and T get
reduced. Do we jump Pitt and Edi before John and Hohn are finished?
Seems like that only gives them common cause and a united front. But if
we wait too long, then A and/or G are fairly strong anyway...This won't
be easy.
Of course, we should really "burn that bridge when we come to it," as
I'm fond of saying. I have enough trouble trying to keep Turkey at 4,
let alone worrying about storming through Germany in 1902! Not to be
overly Machiavellian here, as Edi IS currently a loyal and indispensible
ally...But if and when we jump him, I recommend (a) simultaneous I/R
hits (or else a one-turn delay, so we can play "good cop-bad cop" and
get him to overrely on his secondary stabber), and (b) we do all this
AFTER Edi takes the lead in traipsing through Boh and Tyo. We should
have a field day in either coddling (or setting up) the astonished Hun
for a stab, or for proxy wars 'with us," while we plot their joint doom.
Again, though, much of this is only nice thinking. France and Turkey
are far from dead, and Pitt may actually support John, if he thinks I/E
are next going to gun for him.
Good hunting, you two, and let's keep the info flow going.
Tsar Faz
Private message from England to Russia:
I heard from Pitt, too, to much the same effect, very agreeable and mildly
apologetic for the F Den.
Until/unless further notice, I'll be proceeding on the assumption that
Germany is friendly.
Given Pitt's inquiry to Mark, I will, of course, have to assume that
Germany will take any opportunity to get the jump on me. All that really
means, I think, is that I'll have to make sure I occupy North Sea and that
I can defend it in seasons ahead. Well, and assuming that I'm first into
Belgium, I'll have to watch myself there, too.
But all of this is more or less according to plan, after all. If Edi
carries through with the promised moves against Munich, everything ought to
be fine. As I imagine it, Cal and I would finish off France, I would jump
in against Germany at the opportune moment (Spring '03?), and if possible
Cal would wait until after I've done that to begin any campaign against
Austria. In the mean time, Faz is finishing off Turkey, jumping in against
Germany either right away ('02, when Edi attacks) or shortly after ('03,
when I attack), and then opens another front against Austria when Cal does.
Timing will be fairly important, as Mark has noted. There will be
resentment among the three of us, I suspect, if (say) one of you leaves the
other to fight Austria alone for long (or if Mark or I should leave the
other struggling with Germany). Come to think of it, I may be wrong about
the proper timing. Maybe it's best if Cal hits Austria at just the same
time that I hit Germany. Hm. Well, we'll cross that bridge later, I guess.
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Master to Italy:
Can't resist kibitzing.... as I think Jamie knows, I am an economist
(in fact with my degree from where Jamie is teaching... at Brown)
so Cal, you have to deal with all of these professors.... always
trying to teach you something! I can only add, in order to make the
tradeoff work, you need Danny Loeb's valuations (or some other set of
valuations from someone else's artificial intelligence diplomacy program)
to give mathematical precision to the curves. Digressing further, I've
never quite gotten Danny to explain to me how his program solves this
particular problem that Jamie proposes adequately. All I know is that
it has aspects of bidding games built into it, since that is Danny's
research interest.
Back to lurking GM mode.....
Private message from Russia to Master:
Jim,
I'll play the stooge here -- I have NO CLUE what the heck any of you
economists and theorists are talking about! I'm saying this all
tongue-in-cheek, because I LOVE the press and the banter (and E/I are,
in all honesty, the two most frequent--and enjoyable--communicators I've
encountered this game). My econ classes were limited to figuring where
those two lines (supply and demand?) intersected. My grad school Econ
Intro course had Dr Looney (nice name) basically say, "Don't worry about
this stuff. In a crisis? Just print more money.") My kinda guy.
I love this stuff!
Faz
Private message from England to Master:
"I've never quite gotten Danny to explain to me how his program solves
this particular problem that Jamie proposes adequately."
I don't think he does solve it adequately.
Well, let me qualify that. I played a game in which one of the powers was
played by Danny's program, but the human players were not told which power
that was. (It was no-press, needless to say.) The play of the program was
good enough so that it wasn't immediately obvious which it was (it was
Italy), but toward the mid-game it made really awful moves, nonsensical
ones. [In fact, I won that game, as Turkey, by leaving Italy alone,
conquering Austria while Italy made silly moves interfering with Austria's
defense, sailing past and invading France, then mopping up Italy in the
ending. By far the easiest game I ever won; I was lucky to get Turkey!]
Maybe he's improved it, I don't know.
One way to solve that particular problem would be just to build in
valuations for controlling the next center (the marginal value of centers),
and also to have the program look ahead a few plies and evaluate positions
(instead of having a fixed value of the element of surprise). Here the
first problem would be figuring out what the marginal value of centers
function *is*. Empirical research might help, but I doubt that it would be
very decisive--you'd have to assume that the games you were looking at
didn't include systematic mistakes by players, or you'd have to make some
kind of judgment of what sorts of mistakes were likely. Horribly vague. A
deeper problem would be that if the valuation is built into the program,
presumably other players can eventually figure out what that valuation is,
and then your program becomes too predictable, it could *never* make a
surprise stab. I guess the only viable solution to that would be to include
a randomizer (stab iff rand(0,1) > .5).
Myself I think that tournaments and games *among artificial Dip players*
could be interesting, but that we are very far from the day when an
artificial player could do well in a game with real players.
-Jamie
p.s. Though no harm done, I think it's better if we don't continue to have
separate conversations involving the master. There are too many subtle
potential problems that could arise--for instance if you suddenly stopped
responding when a certain question was raised that might tip someone off to
the fact that that question was especially relevant in *this* game,
something you might know only because of privvy information.... Other
psychological factors, too.
Private message from Master to England:
>
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to Italy, England and
> Master in 'ghodstoo':
>
> Jim,
> I'll play the stooge here -- I have NO CLUE what the heck any of you
> economists and theorists are talking about!
Whot???? Don't they teach any game theory to you military strategist
types any more??? Ideally, these curves Jamie describes would be
reaction functions incorporating Nash equilibrium properties (e.g.
the French proxy assumption). Even children in the playpen understand
that as they compete to see who can get the most toys!!!
> I'm saying this all
> tongue-in-cheek, because I LOVE the press and the banter (and E/I are,
> in all honesty, the two most frequent--and enjoyable--communicators I've
> encountered this game). My econ classes were limited to figuring where
> those two lines (supply and demand?) intersected. My grad school Econ
> Intro course had Dr Looney (nice name) basically say, "Don't worry about
> this stuff. In a crisis? Just print more money.") My kinda guy.
>
Boy, I hate how "looney" people ruin a perfectly good profession.
And when I went ahead and "just printed more money", the Secret Service
called me in for a little "chat"..... true story..... Jamie, if you
ever run into Harl Ryder in the Ivy Room someday you can ask him about
that.... and how he kept me out of the slammer... hee, hee, hee.
> I love this stuff!
>
> Faz
>
So do I, it's not appropriate for l'il ol' me to do this, but anyone
is free to take any of this to broadcast press if they wish -- including
copying anything I say -- since one could claim the GM shouldn't be
commenting at all unless it is broadcast press.
Jim
Private message from Master to England:
I decided the same thing as you see from my subsequent message.
And I won't be commenting further unless someone takes it to broadcast.
>
> Message from [email protected] as England to Master in 'ghodstoo':
>
> "I've never quite gotten Danny to explain to me how his program solves
> this particular problem that Jamie proposes adequately."
>
> I don't think he does solve it adequately.
>
Yes, well, that is certainly part of the answer.
> Well, let me qualify that. I played a game in which one of the powers was
> played by Danny's program, but the human players were not told which power
> that was. (It was no-press, needless to say.) The play of the program was
> good enough so that it wasn't immediately obvious which it was (it was
> Italy), but toward the mid-game it made really awful moves, nonsensical
> ones. [In fact, I won that game, as Turkey, by leaving Italy alone,
> conquering Austria while Italy made silly moves interfering with Austria's
> defense, sailing past and invading France, then mopping up Italy in the
> ending. By far the easiest game I ever won; I was lucky to get Turkey!]
>
I remember. I watched the game and the discussion that followed.
> Maybe he's improved it, I don't know.
>
> One way to solve that particular problem would be just to build in
> valuations for controlling the next center (the marginal value of centers),
> and also to have the program look ahead a few plies and evaluate positions
> (instead of having a fixed value of the element of surprise). Here the
> first problem would be figuring out what the marginal value of centers
> function *is*. Empirical research might help, but I doubt that it would be
> very decisive--you'd have to assume that the games you were looking at
> didn't include systematic mistakes by players, or you'd have to make some
> kind of judgment of what sorts of mistakes were likely. Horribly vague. A
> deeper problem would be that if the valuation is built into the program,
> presumably other players can eventually figure out what that valuation is,
> and then your program becomes too predictable, it could *never* make a
> surprise stab. I guess the only viable solution to that would be to include
> a randomizer (stab iff rand(0,1) > .5).
Ultimately, there are two dimensions to the problem that are hard:
1) When to employ mixed strategies (randomization)
2) How to build Nash behavior in with more than two players (You
benefited in the demo game by the fact that the game was unable
to consider Turkey an enemy while it was concerned with Austria).
> Myself I think that tournaments and games *among artificial Dip players*
> could be interesting, but that we are very far from the day when an
> artificial player could do well in a game with real players.
Absolutely, agreed.
>
> -Jamie
> p.s. Though no harm done, I think it's better if we don't continue to have
> separate conversations involving the master. There are too many subtle
> potential problems that could arise--for instance if you suddenly stopped
> responding when a certain question was raised that might tip someone off to
> the fact that that question was especially relevant in *this* game,
> something you might know only because of privvy information.... Other
> psychological factors, too.
>
My intention is not to write anything that would not be appropriate
for broadcast. Obviously, I felt somewhat safe discussing artificial
intelligence (and going "personal" as I did in the follow up)
since I can guarantee you that Danny and his program are NOT playing
in this game. I wouldn't answer nor address anything that was not general
or personal to me. I mean to be aware, but very careful.
Jim
Private message from England to Russia:
(Faz)
>I'll play the stooge here -- I have NO CLUE what the heck any of you
>economists and theorists are talking about!
My pseudo-theorem was highly tongue-in-cheek. It was merely a paraphrase of
my vague advice in pretentious formal terms; I do actually think that
economists tend to do things like that. The point is that if you could ever
get the information you really needed to plug into the 'model', you would
certainly already know what the best plan was, and the model wouldn't be of
any use.
Here are a couple of little comments, kind of from the 'outside' rather
than from my insider's perspective on the game.
1. You guys don't have to include 'm' in the 'press to' line. Every scrap
of press goes to Jim anyway, because he's set a special option. (So don't
say anything nasty about him.) And he has to read all of that press, at
least skim it, because just by the subject headers he can't tell whether a
message from the judge is specifically directed to him or rather just some
press from Turkey to Austria or something. (I've used the ALL PRESS option
as a gm, though it's fun it's a bit of a pain in the ass.)
2. I'm a little surprised that Cal thinks Faz and I send huge amounts of
press. Believe it or not, this is a quiet game for me. It is *very common*
for me to send four or five messages *each day* to the powers I'm most
interested in, especially near the beginning of the game. For example, as
Russia in one recent game I would exchange four or five messages per day
with England as we negotiated various abstract aspects of a potential
long-term alliance. No doubt this is one of those features of internet Dip.
that separate it from both F-T-F and snail mail Dip.
Since we have week-long deadlines, I am not so anxious to exchange oodles
of mail daily. And Cal and Faz have been by a wide margin the readiest to
keep an ongoing conversation going. I feel that things are going very well,
actually.
We might all say something about this difference between internet Dip and
other flavors when we all 'debrief' after the game. I can't resist saying
that I find it remarkable that two of the three 'old fashioned' powers are,
to my way of thinking, playing much more in the internet spirit than Pitt
or John!
-Jamie
Private message from Russia to Master:
Jim: Don't worry about broadcasting this stuff; half the folks wouldn't
understand it, the other half wouldn't care!
Game theory is alive and well, but only if discussing the Prisoner's
Dilemma, Tragedy of the Commons, or the Stag Hunt. Anything dealing
with Graham Nash--or whatever Boulian theories he ahs--is out of my
league!
I for one welcome GM kibitzing; I see no harm in it, and enjoy the
interchange.
Faz
Private message from England to Master:
JIM:
>So do I, it's not appropriate for l'il ol' me to do this, but anyone
>is free to take any of this to broadcast press if they wish -- including
>copying anything I say -- since one could claim the GM shouldn't be
>commenting at all unless it is broadcast press.
WAIT STOP HOLD ON.
We can't take this to broadcast press. There would be too much wondering
about how the discussion got started. Please don't.
I do agree that we should stop this particular discussion, fascinating
though it be, not because its content is at all problematic from the
'master interference' perspective, but just because it's better to follow
the simple principle of having no game-related suggestions or comments from
master to a subset of players. (I've just mentioned this to Jim in private
press to m.)
What I mean is, I think Jim has to be very careful here. It would be too
easy for the discussion to wander over into some very sensitive area, or
for Jim *suddenly* to fall silent when a certain topic was broached, say,
if someone raised as an example of something, say: the way Russia and
Turkey can fool others by sneaking the Russian fleet out into the
Mediterranean, but that this involves so much trust and the temptations to
stab are so great, etc. (Not that I believe for a moment that that's what's
happening, dear Tsar, but you know what I mean.) A sudden silence from Jim
would be too informative!
A sad cost of being master with ALL PRESS set. :(
-Jamie
Private message from Russia to Austria:
Hi Edi
Just wondering if you'd given any more thought to my request for Serbian
suupport of Ukr-Rum while I go Sev-Arm (Bla S). I don't mean to be a
pest, really. But I was hoping to submit my orders tonight (or early
tomorrow, I guess), and was wondering what arguments (for or against)
you have for this idea.
Again, if you're going unsupported to Gre anyway, then why not ensure we
get Rum AND Arm this season? Speed is what we were shooting for,
anyway. But I won't rehash last note. If you have 'druthers one way or
the other, I'll just await your reply. For now I'll send in the
"default" orders of support to Arm, and unsupported Ukr-Rum...
Tsar Faz
Private message from Russia to Master:
Jim
I know I don't have to address this as 'press to m,' but what the heck.
Hope this finds you well.
Game thoughts:
Turkey will never, ever trust me after this move. For the second
straight season, I have bald-faced lied to him, which I usually shy
against doing. Hohn thinks (or I *think* he thinks) I'm going to Gal
and Rum, while he does his own thing. But given the Quadripartite
Alliance that's ongoing, I'm faced with few alternatives. After all,
with three others supposedly following the same "gameplan," any
deviation is immediately suspect, raises the tension factor, and causes
"undue attention" toward oneself. And besides, maybe I'll gain more
from this route, heh heh...
My opinion is that Hohn, for all HIS words of trust and cooperation,
anticipates this stab. He was in contact with Austria, trying to
support Edi to RUM, and has told me he reserves the right to hit BLA or
ARM until he sees my true intentions. (Hence my desire to ensure one
build--Rum--and play on the off-chance that he leaves Ank for Arm and I
slide in behind him. It's doubtful this will happen, but hey, why not
try?)
I've asked Austria to use Ser to support my A Ukr-Rum. This allows me
to ensure the capture of Arm (Sev-Arm, Bla S), and put a true choke hold
on Turkey. Edi hasn't responded, and I know he's deliberately stalling
because he can't find a 'good" reason to argue against it. This, to me,
is good 'rationalization' for the eventual-planned R/I hit on him later.
If Edi does what Edi says, he'll move Alb-Ion and Ser-Gre, Tri-Ser.
(I have also hinted to Hohn--without having him relay it directly back
to Edi--that he, Hohn, needs to hit Gre from Bul.) This keeps RUM safe
for me, and bounces Edi, making him strong (but not too strong) down
south. Who knows; they may both be in cahoots and are even now
plotting my demise!
Germany offers me Swe and alliance vs England, asking me to commit to F
StP(nc); he fears the E/I, or so he says. I'm just hoping I get Swe for
now--where the build goes is secondary. I am trying to think of a way
that I can warn Germany of the impending (supposedly-impending!)
Austrian move to Tyo and Boh in time for there to be an ineffectual,
bloody stalemate that Italy and I can clean up on.
The gameplan is this: slow chokehold on Turkey by A/R. I/E kill off
France, with or without Germany. Once the timing is right (and none of
us knows when that is!!), we will hit Germany in tandem. The Trio from
the Q Alliance (E/I/R) have also been debating timing for the hit on
Austria...much plotting and sub-plotting. If this all goes well, Turkey
will lose Bul and Arm next season, and be ground down by early
1904...ditto for France. The question is: can we wait that long for
anti-G and anti-A action??? Only our hairdressers know for sure...
France is a non-writing lackard this game, and even Edi--a key
ally--doesn't write as much as I'd expect a hobby ghod to do. E/I are
'natural' default allies, because only they (and Pitt) stay in close
communication. Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.
Private message from Master to England:
>
> Message from [email protected] as England to Master in 'ghodstoo':
>
>
>
> >I remember. I watched the game and the discussion that followed.
>
> No kidding!
>
> Did you watch the others of those games? I can't remember what they were
> called. Some acronym. How did they turn out? I didn't watch any of the
> others. But I am pretty sure the Artificial Diplomat didn't win any of them!
>
Were there others in the series??? I think I dimly remember one of
the others.... but unless it was the Art. Dip. playing France, I don't.
Was your game the one where everyone at first "thought" that it
was France? If so, I may just be confusing two aspects of the same game.
>
> >Ultimately, there are two dimensions to the problem that are hard:
> >
> >1) When to employ mixed strategies (randomization)
> >
> >2) How to build Nash behavior in with more than two players (You
> >benefited in the demo game by the fact that the game was unable
> >to consider Turkey an enemy while it was concerned with Austria).
>
> You're right.
> The first is a technical problem, the second is a deeper theoretical
> problem: there's no guarantee of Nash equilibria when a game has more than
> two players.
Absolutely. I happen to really, REAALLY, REALLY!!!! enjoy that fact
about Diplomacy. It is in fact, one of the chief benefits of the game.
>
> There's also the problem that Diplomacy is not a finite game at all. So we
> can't expect Nash equilibria even in a reduction to two players! I
> discovered this fact (which probably should have been obvious) when I was
> investigating endgames for a couple of Dip Pouch articles. Actually, I
> think Dan Shoham pointed it out to me.
>
> -Jamie
>
Dan had to point the same thing out to me once too (perhaps he pointed
it out to both of us at the same time). I do really wish he had
been the seventh player in this game, but what can you do.......
Jim
PS I know exactly what you mean about "GM carefulness". When I said
"personal" I meant personal to me, of course. I realized
that could be misinterpreted.
Private message from Master to England:
>
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to Italy, England and
> Master in 'ghodstoo':
>
>
> Jim: Don't worry about broadcasting this stuff; half the folks wouldn't
> understand it, the other half wouldn't care!
>
But what I am saying is that the DECISION to do so cannot be mine.
That would be GM interference, which I have to be rather careful
about for the reasons that Jamie states.
> Game theory is alive and well, but only if discussing the Prisoner's
> Dilemma, Tragedy of the Commons, or the Stag Hunt. Anything dealing
> with Graham Nash--or whatever Boulian theories he ahs--is out of my
> league!
Ah.... Jamie probably is right (at least to some extent) about the
requirements of complex economics models. One of my papers predicts
problems that entrant companies like ValuJet face in trading off
quality for survival and predict the growth of "low frills and
cramped seats" in the competitive market, but most of the real
problem still has to simplified away, and some of the logic of
the conclusions and implications are transparent anyway. In other
words, the way of thinking is important, but the details of
the thinking probably aren't.
> I for one welcome GM kibitzing; I see no harm in it, and enjoy the
> interchange.
>
> Faz
>
Yes, but I will stick either to the personal or the completely
general in my comments to avoid biasing the game.
Jim
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as Germany to Italy in 'ghodstoo':
> I've actually reconsiderd this. From what little I've been able to gather
> from France and other sources, he's going to use MAR to take SPA, MAO to
> cover BRE, and BUR to cover MAR (I've reinforced th latter by suggesitng
> that I'm willing to order MUN Hold rather than MUN-BUR). If that's true,
> then your PIE-MAR doesn't help us. In fact, it hurts us since it prevents
> my MUN-BUR from working and gives him the option of building a F MAR. I'd
> suggest that PIE Hold or PIE S BUR-MAR is a better move.
>
> Your thoughts?
I think I'll resort to the old fashioned scientific method...
ie flipping a coin :)
> >Now, do you have any suggestions as to what those other pursuits
> >should be? :)
>
> Well, if EIG holds, after France is divvied up, I envision you taking
> heading south and east (east with my help if you want it) and England and I
> heading north and east. England has already suggested this and I think it
> works. What do you think?
This is what I was hoping might happen. I figure that by that time,
I'll have Edi or Hohn to deal with. We'll talk about it more over the
next couple of moves.
Cal
Private message from Germany to England:
>I wouldn't shoot that birdie.
Your point was well taken. And, actually, right in line with my
thinking...my comment was meant more as an off-the-cuff, "now I know where
this one stands and I'll play him accordingly" sort of thing. One *never*
gives up an information source, one just fine tunes it a bit. I remember a
reader reply I read by author and book reviewer Spider Robinson in Analog
many years ago. The reader had taken Spider to task because he felt that
Spider had no clue about current SF and that his reviews were *always* in
direct contrast from the reader's own perspective. To which Spider
replied, "Well then I'm the perfect reviewer for you becuase you'll
*always* know whether or not you'll like the book. If I hate it, you'll
love it and vice versa."
>Well, for the record, I have been nervous about his plans from the start,
>despite my extreme geographical protection from him. Just a fear-inspiring
>sort of guy.
I share that concern. I saw him in action into games at WDC and I know
full well what he's capable of.
>The thing is, I always have this sense that s-mail players like wild,
>wide-open games, with sudden and massive shifts in alliance.
FWIW, that's Edi's style in FtF, too.
>I just have no 'feel'
>for the tensions, intentions, pretensions of the s-mail bunch.
I feel as if I do with Edi, a bit, but none with Cal and Faz.
>If just one
>of those guys were eliminated early, I'd feel better, but it sure looks
>like our own Hohn will be the first to go.
Well, I was sort of lumping Hohn in with the s-mail bunch from what I've
heard previously. In any case, I wouldn't be so sure that he's going to
drop. I suspect that Edi or Faz (or even Cal) will try to take advantage
of his early weakness and cut a deal to come to his rescue. I think
they're too good (as is Hohn) to let the opportunity pass.
>And here we are eliminating our poor colleague John.
In his case, I think he sort of deserves it. Or rather, he's doesn't
appear to be focusing on the game as much as the rest and, thus, isn't
trying as hard to recover from the spring moves. Were I he, I'd be seeing
this spring slam as a great opportunity to engineer a stunning comeback,
though that would require a monster effort. I may be wrong and I may be
being unfair but that's how it's shaping up from here. (Of course, when
EFIAR all move to attack me in Fall 1901, I'll be forced to eat those
words...;-)
-KaiserPitt
Private message from England to Germany:
>He's not talking to me a lot (so put your mind at ease about *that*). And
>he was not the one who gave me the insight about an EI, either. I just
>assuemd that the rumor was true (going to have shoot that little birdie)
>given Italy's opening moves.
Just my opinion, but:
I wouldn't shoot that birdie.
When I have a birdie, I always like to be nice to him. If you can count on
a birdie to be truthful, that's very helpful. If you can count on him
always to lie, that is actually just as helpful! Even if you just have some
pretty good idea of what he might be up to in spreading gossip, that can be
very useful, too. A live birdie conveys information to a canny listener.
Dead birdies are useless, except for feeding your cat. (The closest thing I
have is Hohn, so I am hoping he will survive a while, but frankly I am not
optimistic. My cat is pleased.)
>Edi...definitely Edi. Which makes me *very* nervous about Austria's other
>plans.
Well, for the record, I have been nervous about his plans from the start,
despite my extreme geographical protection from him. Just a fear-inspiring
sort of guy. As I said, I intend to try to use that quality of his to win
friends and influence people. (Win friends, influence people, then stab
them and take their centers; you too can have success with Dale Carnegie's
Keys to Life!)
The thing is, I always have this sense that s-mail players like wild,
wide-open games, with sudden and massive shifts in alliance. So I
constantly have the feeling that I have basically no clue as to what's
going on outside of our little corner here in the NW. I just have no 'feel'
for the tensions, intentions, pretensions of the s-mail bunch. If just one
of those guys were eliminated early, I'd feel better, but it sure looks
like our own Hohn will be the first to go. And here we are eliminating our
poor colleague John. Oh well. I guess this way I'll learn a little
something.
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Germany to England:
>>Hmmm...OK, I guess. Of course, that leaves my F DEN totally dependent on
>>your goodwill.
>
>Not sure what you mean. How could you lose Denmark?
Not immediately but it will be more exposed as my lone fleet rather than as
one of several.
>Will Russia build F Stp(sc)? I'll be surprised.
Me, too. But an army STP could be just as dangerous, expecially if he
builds a fleet in 1902.
>I'll tell you, I would really, really like to avoid conflict with Russia
>for 1902.
Same here. Please don't misinterpret my request for a committment to
support me as a request for an early assault on Russia. I just wanted to
know that you'd be there if Russia decided to start the early war.
>If I've misunderstood, and you only meant that you depended on my good will
>not to *take* Denmark or assist Russia in taking it, then that's a
>different story. I agree to that.
Yes, that's it. Thank you.
>>OK. If I'm going to become almost exclusively a land power, I'd be much
>>more comfortable if you were exclusively a sea power.
>
>Suits me.
Good. Thanks.
>I am sure I will want to build an army or two at *some* point.
Sure, understood. More than likely, I'll eventually want another fleet, as
well, though for use in heading east rather than elsewhere.
>I do promise categorically to build only fleets this winter.
Thanks. I figured you would anwyay but I wanted to make my wishes known.
>Any future army would be
>convoyed either to Norway or west of Belgium (Tunis is west of Belgium,
>isn't it?)
Heh ;-)
>and I'd discuss the idea with you in advance. Good enough?
Yes, same here.
>>Agreed. On the other hand, I'm under the impression that you've made great
>>headway in developing EI. Is that not accurate?
>
>It is not accurate.
Ohhhh...OK. That maybe changes things a little.
>I don't know what to tell you. Cal is not very talkative. I figured he's so
>used to snail-mail games that he hasn't got the hang of writing every day.
>(Also, I know he doesn't have access in the daytime.) But if he's been
>writing to *you* a lot, that hypothesis is shot.
He's not talking to me a lot (so put your mind at ease about *that*). And
he was not the one who gave me the insight about an EI, either. I just
assuemd that the rumor was true (going to have shoot that little birdie)
given Italy's opening moves.
>I am, obviously, pleased that he moved to Piedmont. But I am not at all
>confident that he'll snatch Spa and Mar and turn back east.
Well, given that it is not a plan worked between the two of you, I tend to
agree with you.
>Also, I am having a hard time believing that it was I who talked him into
>moving to Piedmont. I did ask him to do it, but unless I have some magical
>charisma power I'm unaware of there must have been another factor. I
>thought maybe you. I guess somehow Edi influenced him. Or Hohn Cho?
Edi...definitely Edi. Which makes me *very* nervous about Austria's other
plans.
>My diplomatic approach will be to attempt to scare the pants off Cal with
>True and Appalling Stories about Edi Birsan :).
I'll do the same.
>I am also trying to get
>Russia to influence Cal in that direction. Since I think Mark really is
>scared to death of Edi, I am somewhat hopeful.
Please let me know how it goes. If I get the opportunity, I'll give Faz a
tickle in that, too.
>>All good possibilities. Too soon to say right now, though. What is not
>>too soon to say is that I am deeply committed to EG.
>
>Oh, goody, of course I believe you 100%, as I always do in Diplomacy!
Aha! A cynic sits on the throne of England. Must remember that...;-)
>No, but you know what I mean. Let's make it *prudent* for each other to
>maintain the alliance. E.g. (hey, "EG"!)
You know, you really ought to have that EEG done ASAP...
>by our build agreement, by
>avoiding the situation where all my fleets are in Scandinavia, etc.
Yes, absolutely. If we pratice the "good fences make good neighbors"
principle, we'll be in good shape.
-KaiserPitt
Private message from Germany to France:
>I think you would be in a better position to discern England's plans re
>Brest than I.
One would think so but I was hoping to glean any additional data whihc
might help me be sure. At present, I believe that he is planning on trying
for BRE, assuming that you will be moving MAR-SPA and BUR-MAR, while using
MAO to take POR, chancing on him nat trying for BRE. That is only an
assumption on my part, however, since I don't need to know his specific
plans and, thus, haven't asked.
>Re den-nth, I assumed you'd order kie-den as well, ensuring two builds no
>matter what.
>From where? DEN-NTH and KIE-DEN nets me DEN but MUN isn't adacent to any
non-German SC's.
-KaiserPitt
Private message from England to Russia:
Russian Humor: Ha ha. Verrrrry funny. Must be the translation from the Russian.
Chatting with Hohn:
I've sent him a little something, witch-to-witch.
I suggest saving the stealing of moves for a crucial moment, since it will
only work once. I'll try to build up some capital, so to speak.
Germany:
I think he'll let you (Mark) have Sweden.
Looking forward to seeing how we progress tonight,
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Turkey:
Sultan,
Info on Russia:
He tells me only that he expects to be heavily involved in the South. He
hopes but is not confident that Germany will let him have Sweden. He is (or
feigns to be) frightened near to death of Edi Birsan.
Info on Italy:
I can tell you confidently that you have nothing to fear from Italian
ships. :-)
Anything you can share that might be helpful to me?
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Germany:
KaiserPitt,
>>For the winter, I would be glad if you didn't build F Kie.
>
>Hmmm...OK, I guess. Of course, that leaves my F DEN totally dependent on
>your goodwill.
Not sure what you mean. How could you lose Denmark? Will Russia build F
Stp(sc)? I'll be surprised. Well, maybe not too surprised, he's said he's
primarily interested in the south, but he hasn't mentioned his intended
construction projects to me.
>I'm willing to do that, however, to sustain that goodwill.
>Please be prepared to protect me from the big, bad, Russian bear if he
>comes hunting, though.
Ok.
I'll tell you, I would really, really like to avoid conflict with Russia
for 1902. I have no idea what Italy will do next (see below), and I will do
a lot to avoid having to fight in Scandinavia and the Mid-Atlantic at once.
(I'll let you in on a little fact. Russia asked me to support him to Sweden
in case you bounce him there. I said I wouldn't promise. Same reason: I
insist that I will try like hell to avoid getting wrapped up in a
Scandinavian mess while the prospect of some Mid-Atlantic skirmishes still
loom.)
But, I'll set up in North Sea and be prepared to support your F Den H, in
case it's really necessary.
If I've misunderstood, and you only meant that you depended on my good will
not to *take* Denmark or assist Russia in taking it, then that's a
different story. I agree to that.
>>If you have any winter requests for me, let me know and I'll entertain them.
>
>OK. If I'm going to become almost exclusively a land power, I'd be much
>more comfortable if you were exclusively a sea power. You take the high
>road, I'll take the low road and, if we're lucky, never the twain shall
>meet. If you build only fleets for the foreseeable future and I only
>armies, we should be able to still easily mop up France and also avoid any
>possible confrontation when we're done. What do you think?
Suits me.
I am sure I will want to build an army or two at *some* point. I do promise
categorically to build only fleets this winter. Any future army would be
convoyed either to Norway or west of Belgium (Tunis is west of Belgium,
isn't it?), and I'd discuss the idea with you in advance. Good enough?
>>What we *don't* want is a
>>concerted I/R/A effort to cross the stalemate line in Gibraltar and swarm
>>all over you through the center.
>
>Agreed. On the other hand, I'm under the impression that you've made great
>headway in developing EI. Is that not accurate?
It is not accurate.
I don't know what to tell you. Cal is not very talkative. I figured he's so
used to snail-mail games that he hasn't got the hang of writing every day.
(Also, I know he doesn't have access in the daytime.) But if he's been
writing to *you* a lot, that hypothesis is shot.
I am, obviously, pleased that he moved to Piedmont. But I am not at all
confident that he'll snatch Spa and Mar and turn back east. It would be a
peculiar strategy, since it wastes so many moves re-positioning units.
Also, I am having a hard time believing that it was I who talked him into
moving to Piedmont. I did ask him to do it, but unless I have some magical
charisma power I'm unaware of there must have been another factor. I
thought maybe you. I guess somehow Edi influenced him. Or Hohn Cho? It's
mighty strange, though, if you think about it. I have never seen a game in
which a single request by England made Italy go west.
My diplomatic approach will be to attempt to scare the pants off Cal with
True and Appalling Stories about Edi Birsan :). I am also trying to get
Russia to influence Cal in that direction. Since I think Mark really is
scared to death of Edi, I am somewhat hopeful.
>>With peace between G and E, any other
>>further alignment seems ok to me. We could do you and me against Russia, me
>>by sea and you by land, with Italy facing off against Austria.
>
>Yes, that's sort of what I was thinking was the next logical step.
Ok, that would be fine. Not ideal. Looking *way* ahead, it is not ideal for
me to have my fleets all around Scandinavia, with a long way to the Med. It
would work out if Italy and Austria clash interminably, but problematic if
they (a) kissed and made up too early, or (b) either got run down too
quickly by the other. Well, so much is obvious. Since we don't really have
enough influence anywhere to control our own next moves, we'll have to wait
and see (as you say).
>All good possibilities. Too soon to say right now, though. What is not
>too soon to say is that I am deeply committed to EG.
Oh, goody, of course I believe you 100%, as I always do in Diplomacy!
:-) :-) :-)
No, but you know what I mean. Let's make it *prudent* for each other to
maintain the alliance. E.g. (hey, "EG"!) by our build agreement, by
avoiding the situation where all my fleets are in Scandinavia, etc.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Russia to Turkey:
Hello Hohn
Thanks *very much* for the call last night. I'm sorry I seemed out of
it initially -- the 7-8 p.m. timeframe always leaves me loopy, what with
the kids' bathtimes, snacks, reading to them at bedtime, etc.
Nonetheless, the 'timing' was very good last night, and I wanted to
thank you for going 'the extra mile' to see this thing through.
My intel (from the Archduke's mouth himself) is that he's going Alb-Ion,
Ser-Gre and Tri-Ser. Given that this is in line with what he's said all
along--to include his peace with Italy--I envision a tough, but
hopefully successful, fight in the Rum-Gal corridior for me, and Aeg/Bul
for you. If you transcend your (justifiable) fears of "the dark side"
(i.e., former Russian perfidy), at least *consider* Bul-Gre. That one
move means he only goes +1, has Tri stuck at home, and less support for
the 1902 counteroffensive. I merely throw it out for your consideration
of 'all' options.
Again, my friend, thanks for the call! let's make it happen!
Tsar Faz
Private message from France to Germany:
Kaiser,
I think you would be in a better position to discern England's plans re
Brest than I. My guess is that he'll go to Belgium, but maybe he's feeling
good about the immediate future and will order wal-pic to secure the long
term.
Perhaps you could talk to him and Italy and dig for some hints.
Re den-nth, I assumed you'd order kie-den as well, ensuring two builds no
matter what.
France
Private message from Germany to Italy:
>It's certainly possible that there's an E/F extant, but I'd be surprised
>if it were so. France seems really uninvolved in what's going on in the
>game.
That's the sense I'm getting more and more, too.
> He and I talked very early in the game and decided on non-aggression
>(well...)
;-)
>> >I was wondering if you have any preference about moves in F'02. My gut
>> >feeling is to try and hit Marseilles in hopes of preventing a build
I've actually reconsiderd this. From what little I've been able to gather
from France and other sources, he's going to use MAR to take SPA, MAO to
cover BRE, and BUR to cover MAR (I've reinforced th latter by suggesitng
that I'm willing to order MUN Hold rather than MUN-BUR). If that's true,
then your PIE-MAR doesn't help us. In fact, it hurts us since it prevents
my MUN-BUR from working and gives him the option of building a F MAR. I'd
suggest that PIE Hold or PIE S BUR-MAR is a better move.
Your thoughts?
>Now, do you have any suggestions as to what those other pursuits
>should be? :)
Well, if EIG holds, after France is divvied up, I envision you taking
heading south and east (east with my help if you want it) and England and I
heading north and east. England has already suggested this and I think it
works. What do you think?
-KaiserPitt
Private message from Germany to France:
>What do I have in mind? Hmm. Good question. How about if we start this
>game over? ;-/
Heh...nice try, though.
>Seriously, about all I need is to be left alone in Burgundy. Perhaps, if
>IE see a more formidable defense than they expected, they'll have a falling
>out. Of course, we can encourage such a happestance as well.
This is a possibility. Do you have any idea if England's planning on BEL or
BRE? That would make a big difference.
>OTOH, if you were to try for Nth, things could become really
>interesting....
Yeah, well, in this case I don't think interesting = good, at least not for
Germnay. IN order to do that, I'd have to give up the DEN SC and, with
only one build in 1901, I wouldn't be able to capitalize on F NTH. BUR we
can discuss but DEN's just sitting tight.
-KaiserPitt
Private message from Germany to Russia:
>Many thanks for the long-awaited note! Paranoia running as rampant as
>it is here in Russia, I began to worry when I didn't hear from you.
I understand. I *am* sorry and I hope it won't happen again.
>Ref the historynet info: what prize did you win in Jan?
A free subscription to one of their magazines. I already subscribe to most
of them so I ended up selecting the Historic Travel magazine, which I 've
never seen. My first issue should arrive next month.
>I'm a history buff--was my Undergrad major in college, and the thrust of
>my Masters.
Well, I'm seriously overmatched, then. I've never formally studied
history, just look into it as a hobby. Howzabout I write you for answers
on the hard ones...;-) FYI, do you also take the weekly History Channel
quizzes?
>I'll be up-front with you: I can't commit to building a F StP(nc) yet.
I understand. Just keep it in mind and know that I'm more interested in RG
than EG.
>Tell you what, though: depending on Turkey's dance with me, and what
>E/I finally do with France, I'll consent to a HEAVY consideration of
>building "north" (Mos/StP) as a balance to their growing power.
That's fine, too.
>That desire for "balance" led me to ask about your French intentions.
>If you're joining in the feast of French flesh
Now there's an unpleasant thought. Reminds me of a good history book on
the topic, though - Flesh and Blood by Reay Tannehill. Ever read it?
>THANK YOU for Sweden, and count on continued Russian friendship.
You're welcome and I do. You may count in the same here.
-KaiserPitt
Private message from Russia to Italy:
>Hi guys,
>Well, as expected, Edi stiffed me over Ser support of Ukr-Rum. He
>thinks it's for the "overall good of the alliance" that he does the
>slide to Gre and the Ion gambit. Read: he wants it for himself, and
>prefers a longer R/T part of the war-- why else would he pass up a
>chance for a SURE securing of Rum and Arm? I sent him a .. ahem ...less
>than joyous reply, but I'll temper my disappointment..."for the good of
>the alliance."
>
>Hohn called last night and made some tempting offers. Said he talked to
>Edi, who kept his plans close to the vest. He then wanted to make sure
>that "R/T" were indeed an item....figures Italy can't turn around fast
>enough to help Edi, and that I can nail Gal and Rum this turn. And you
>know something? He's right. I'm going to join him against Edi.
>
>Just kidding. A little Russian humor, ar ar.
>
>The "odds-on" moves choice right now (now that Aus is doing his own
>private war) is Bla S Sev-Arm, and risk Ukr-Rum unsupported. If Germany
>is nice to me, I may still get two. If he and Turkey get nasty/lucky,
>I'll bid zero. Hey, is this a great game, or what?!
>
>Timing (for the G and A hits) is even more of a focusing factor for me
>now. Having said that, I will work in synch with both of you on
>whenever and however we do our follow-on hits. Let's stay flexible on
>this, but still keep a spare blade sharpened for the near-term..ok?
>
>Jamie: Have you been talking to Turkey? I ask because you could be the
>propaganda mouthpiece for a turn or two, 'concerned' along with the oter
>Wicked Witch as to Russian growth, and thus "eager to share news of
>Russia's moves" with Hohn....whattya think? Might buy us a key move
>here before 1902...
>
>I wish you both 'good hunting' against your foes.
>
>Tsar Faz
>endpress
>signoff
>
>
>
Private message from Russia to Austria:
Edi
Reread my earlier note, and wanted to assure you that it wasn't meant to
sound trite or irritable. (But it probably still did, so I apologize.)
I guess I just seem a little less willing to believe Hohn would just
'sit tight' in BUL and allow an easy walk into Rum....especially when he
thinks he's either got a deal with you or with me...
Anyway, it's not worth grousing over. You know Hohn better than I do,
so I'll go with the flow... I guess we'll see what happens tonight.
Tsar Faz
Private message from Germany to England:
>I was getting nervous.
I'm not surprised. I *am* sorry, though.
>OK, then we're still on. Good, I would really hate to waste such a
>successful stab of France by changing my target instantly :).
You and me both...;-)
>Your options are limited, what with that army stuck in Mun. The obvious
>move is just Mun-Bur, Kie-Hol, Den H. I can't see anything better.
Yes, I think that's the best option.
>You might discuss things with Italy, especially that Mun-Bur move. France
>surely must order Bur-Mar; if Italy orders Pie H, then France can't build F
>Mar (so that's good for Italy) and you'll be in Burgundy, which is
>obviously your only entry point.
Yep. I've raised the issue and I'm waiting to hear back from him.
>Let's see. I think I'd like to get plans a bit clearer for the future, so
>as to avoid the sort of uncomfortableness I've been having about your Den
>move. (For a short while I actually thought you might be planning Den-Nth,
>since I'm obviously going to try to vacate Nth. But then I realized you'd
>only get one build, and if you then built a fleet, you'd be skinned alive
>next year. That realization made me very happy.)
I bet... Not to worry, even were I stupid enough to miss the problem you
outlined above, I know just how much I'd be shoving you into France's arms
were I to stab you now. No chance.
>For the winter, I would be glad if you didn't build F Kie.
Hmmm...OK, I guess. Of course, that leaves my F DEN totally dependent on
your goodwill. I'm willing to do that, however, to sustain that goodwill.
Please be prepared to protect me from the big, bad, Russian bear if he
comes hunting, though.
>If you have any winter requests for me, let me know and I'll entertain them.
OK. If I'm going to become almost exclusively a land power, I'd be much
more comfortable if you were exclusively a sea power. You take the high
road, I'll take the low road and, if we're lucky, never the twain shall
meet. If you build only fleets for the foreseeable future and I only
armies, we should be able to still easily mop up France and also avoid any
possible confrontation when we're done. What do you think?
>If it's all the same to you, I guess I won't say what my plans for the
>current moves are.
No problem. I don't have a need to know them and I take no offense to your
desire to keep them secret.
>What we *don't* want is a
>concerted I/R/A effort to cross the stalemate line in Gibraltar and swarm
>all over you through the center.
Agreed. On the other hand, I'm under the impression that you've made great
headway in developing EI. Is that not accurate?
>With peace between G and E, any other
>further alignment seems ok to me. We could do you and me against Russia, me
>by sea and you by land, with Italy facing off against Austria.
Yes, that's sort of what I was thinking was the next logical step.
>choose which one of A or I to help a bit; either a fleet of mine bothering
>Italy, or an army of yours nagging Austria. Or we could have you and Russia
>teaming up on Austria with me bashing away against Italy around Gibraltar;
>not too promising, really, but ultimately ok if the team can stick together
>long enough. Maybe best of all would be to have you, me, and Edi allied and
>working toward an endgame. That would work very well *if* Austria starts
>building fleets right away, otherwise you and he would get in one another's
>way too much, I think.
All good possibilities. Too soon to say right now, though. What is not
too soon to say is that I am deeply committed to EG. The rest of it will
fall into place shortly, I think.
-KaiserPitt
Private message from Russia to Austria:
Hi Edi
It's not a matter of "going paranoid." To you it may seem so, because
you're willing to gamble with my unit after I (not you) angered our
common foe. To me it's more of "playing it safe AND sure" by
GUARENTEEING we get Rum AND Arm (no fancy-shmansy guesswork or
double-whammy triple reverses, etc). If you think it's better "for the
good of the alliance" that we try and out-think an angry Hohn and just
go unsupported to Rum, that's fine. He called me last night, too, but
wasn't as open with his 'final" unit placements as he apparently was
with you.
Anyway, good luck with Ion and the slide gambit. I'll support to
Armenia, no doubt, and take my chances with Rum. Deep down I want to
believe you're right, and there's no sarcasm intended...I just thought a
"sure percentage" was the better option this turn, is all.
tsar faz
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as England to Italy and Russia in
> 'ghodstoo':
> Here are a couple of little comments, kind of from the 'outside' rather
> than from my insider's perspective on the game.
>
> 1. You guys don't have to include 'm' in the 'press to' line. Every scrap
> of press goes to Jim anyway, because he's set a special option. (So don't
> say anything nasty about him.) And he has to read all of that press, at
> least skim it, because just by the subject headers he can't tell whether a
> message from the judge is specifically directed to him or rather just some
> press from Turkey to Austria or something. (I've used the ALL PRESS option
> as a gm, though it's fun it's a bit of a pain in the ass.)
I'll probably do it anyway. Force of habit. :)
> 2. I'm a little surprised that Cal thinks Faz and I send huge amounts of
> press. Believe it or not, this is a quiet game for me. It is *very common*
> for me to send four or five messages *each day* to the powers I'm most
> interested in, especially near the beginning of the game. For example, as
> Russia in one recent game I would exchange four or five messages per day
> with England as we negotiated various abstract aspects of a potential
> long-term alliance. No doubt this is one of those features of internet Dip.
> that separate it from both F-T-F and snail mail Dip.
> Since we have week-long deadlines, I am not so anxious to exchange oodles
> of mail daily. And Cal and Faz have been by a wide margin the readiest to
> keep an ongoing conversation going. I feel that things are going very well,
> actually.
Since this is only my second ever Internet game (and the first was a
bummer of a Gunboat game with six (ugh) "carebears"), I'm not sure what
the usual volume is or should be. I wasn't actually complaining, it's
just that I come home to four or five letters and my intention to reply
to EVERY letter I get this game is severely tested. Not by volume, mind
you, but by the fact it's hard to reply to the first letter when I've
already read the next four. Oh well, I'll get used to it. Don't stop
the writing cuz I actually DO like getting all that mail. :)
> We might all say something about this difference between internet Dip and
> other flavors when we all 'debrief' after the game. I can't resist saying
> that I find it remarkable that two of the three 'old fashioned' powers are,
> to my way of thinking, playing much more in the internet spirit than Pitt
> or John!
I figger I'm just making up for all those postal games I never bothered
to correspond in because I was a) too cheap/lazy to buy stamps; or b)
too fed up with the postal disservice of the US and Canada, eh?
later
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to Italy, England and
> Master in 'ghodstoo':
>
> Jim: Don't worry about broadcasting this stuff; half the folks wouldn't
> understand it, the other half wouldn't care!
Half the folks who ARE getting it don't understand it either.
> Game theory is alive and well, but only if discussing the Prisoner's
> Dilemma, Tragedy of the Commons, or the Stag Hunt. Anything dealing
> with Graham Nash--or whatever Boulian theories he ahs--is out of my
> league!
>
> I for one welcome GM kibitzing; I see no harm in it, and enjoy the
> interchange.
I agree, especially as you aren't even talking about the game.
Regards
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as Master to England, Russia and Italy in
> 'ghodstoo':
>
> Can't resist kibitzing.... as I think Jamie knows, I am an economist
> (in fact with my degree from where Jamie is teaching... at Brown)
> so Cal, you have to deal with all of these professors.... always
> trying to teach you something!
I'm not worried. Many have tried and ALL have failed... grin
Cal White
Grade school drop out and proud of it
Private message from Master to Austria:
Edi,
You have an "error flag" on your orders. What this probably means
is that you submitted your orders followed by your ".sig" file
or signature file without a "signoff" command. The Judge
properly interpreted your orders, but did not kjnow what to do
with your signature file.
Please send either a repeat of your orders with the signoff
command, or I think just a blank signoff command if you want your
orders as submitted to stand (What is there is the moves to
Ion, Gre, and Ser).
Thanks, sorry for the inconveniece,
Jim
Private message from England to Master:
>I remember. I watched the game and the discussion that followed.
No kidding!
Did you watch the others of those games? I can't remember what they were
called. Some acronym. How did they turn out? I didn't watch any of the
others. But I am pretty sure the Artificial Diplomat didn't win any of them!
>Ultimately, there are two dimensions to the problem that are hard:
>
>1) When to employ mixed strategies (randomization)
>
>2) How to build Nash behavior in with more than two players (You
>benefited in the demo game by the fact that the game was unable
>to consider Turkey an enemy while it was concerned with Austria).
You're right.
The first is a technical problem, the second is a deeper theoretical
problem: there's no guarantee of Nash equilibria when a game has more than
two players.
There's also the problem that Diplomacy is not a finite game at all. So we
can't expect Nash equilibria even in a reduction to two players! I
discovered this fact (which probably should have been obvious) when I was
investigating endgames for a couple of Dip Pouch articles. Actually, I
think Dan Shoham pointed it out to me.
-Jamie
Private message from Russia to England:
Hello again guys
I imagine that, of the five remaining mail messages in the queue, one of =
them will supersede this msg...Still, let me take 'em "one at a time..."
The "separate communications" regarding POR. Jamie, by no means would I =
be offended if you and Cal discussed POR separately. It's not my =
sphere, so it's not a concern, per se. I merely tend to believe that =
when you're allied, advice is cheap and essentially "take it or leave =
it." I just wanted to express an ally's opinion, which, like yours, =
tends to revolve around my personal situation (nature of the game, and =
all that). You want POR for the stalemate line; I want Italy to have =
builds for anti-Aus operations. Because, unlike you, I am *not* =
sanguine about our anti-A/T chances for quick operations. You two may =
have visions of French sugarplums dancing in your heads, but that's =
because you have him outnumbered and pressured not just on both flanks, =
but in the center, with Pitt. If and when we ever pull off the Edi hit, =
it all boils down to: what's happening at the time with Germany? I can =
see it now: Turkey down to 1-2, then we hit Edi (who's at 7 or so), and =
we're also fighting Pitt. Guess who has all three enemies on his flank? =
England is aloof from two of the three foes, as is Italy. That's my =
only concern--allies with centers and rapid accessibility to help me. =
Because quite honestly, if the board doesn't change in that regard, I =
can't (won't) initiate hostilities. =20
That was my only reason for opining about POR. If Italy gets centers =
and gets them quickly, then whatever you guys agree on is fine by me. I =
*just* don't see Cal being able to rapidly turn on Austria with any =
semblance of force by 1903, so I'm pressing to "front-load him" for the =
betterment of anti-Aus operations. Sorry for the pessimism, but that's =
the glum Tsar for ya...
The long-term division of spoils is, to me, not even worth considering =
at this stage. A lot of it depends on the final match. Again, being =
brutally honest here--as allies should--who's to say all three of us =
will survive? You guys could turn on me, or any combination could come =
out. And does Cal gets Turkish centers that he never fought for? Do I =
get German ones that Jamie won by himself? You catch my drift--I WANT =
us to be the three-power subset of the QC, because I think Edi's going =
to bamboozle us all somewhere down the line. And I harbor no ill-will =
or evil plans against you guys. Jamie's division of spoils is as good =
as any of us can guesstimate for now, but I think it's too optimistic =
and too premature. Heck, we haven't even levelled our principal foes =
yet. =20
Anyway, let me shut down comms. Rereading this, I sound awful =
pessimistic -- must be that pizza for supper! I appreciate the =
discussions, and I hope you guys work out your western issues AND level =
France quickly. There are bigger fish to fry, as we all admit. In that =
regard, I AM optimistic we will persevere. TIMING IS EVERYTHING.
Will reply to any other notes, then shut down the system 'till tomorrow =
a.m. As always, I appreciate comments and ideas.
Spokojnoj Nochij
Tsar Faz
The sun was hot. Hot like an oven, cooking French croissants and =
Turkish crescent rolls. Hot like Ben Gay in a fat man's jockstrap. I'm =
talking hot.
On this hot field of battle the dead lay in heaps, and the wounded =
walked about, dazed. The Turkish Janissaries, bloodied yet unbowed, =
yelled nasty things about the Tsar's mother across the Bosphorus into =
the hills of Rumania. The noise even reached the ADMIRAL TEARIZNUTZOFF, =
flagship of the Black Sea fleet. Despite the ill mood the Turks, the =
Russians doffed their caps in tribute to a hard-fighting foe. =
Nonetheless, the bombardment must continue. The Grand Archduke, Edi =
Birsanski, has promised a Christian reunion in Byzantium ere the year is =
out, and the Orthodox Russians rejoice at the prospect of recapturing =
The Second Rome from the infidel. (We'd kinda like Armenia, too.)
Some forces of darkness and muckraking believe that there is trouble =
along the Transylvanian Front. Nothing could be further from the truth. =
Tsarist forces, overly skittish at the prospect of fighting the famed =
Turk, merely 'advanced to the rear' for the 1901 season. Armed with new =
levies from Bucharest, the Russians are ready to renew the struggle. =
Let those who make ominous gossip about the Balkans be warned...
In other news, the Tsar offered a celebratory mass for Kaiser Pitt, =
Benevolent Leader and benefactor of Sweden, whose generosity knows no =
bounds. Statues of the Kaiser have begun appearing throughout the =
Imperial Palace; rumor has it the Queen has even one mounted above her =
bed. The Russian people applaud the peace-loving neutrality policies of =
both the German and English rulers, and hope for greater piece, I mean, =
PEACE, among us all.
And who can forget the Italians? Even now they storm ahead in the =
dreadnaughts, looking for areas to pacify. Can the French maintain elan =
in the face of such furious assaults? Only our hairdressers know for =
sure...
The Tsar salutes all in the opening game-year, and wishes goodwill to =
Private message from Russia to Italy:
Cal
This is as good a time to talk as any, and I'm glad you brought this up. =
I fear, in this oder, the following:
1) Edi growing too fat upon Hohn's death;
2) Edi and Hohn (as puppet) teaming up when we hit him (IF we hit him) =
anytime "soon" (due to lack of good Italian builds)
3) England growing at the expense of us all.
I deliberately mentioned the idea of you getting POR for the same =
reasons you have cited in this recent note. I, of course, use the handy =
lightning rod (Edi) as the excuse for you gaining. There's truth to =
that, but the penultimate reason is that I don't want England getting =
too strong in the outyears and sealing off the Med/Mid.
In fact, Cal, my big fear is that you and England get into a sparring =
match when the rapid demise of France makes you guys hot together, and =
we lose the anti-Edi part. In other words, let's say you guys are in =
Iberia and you now have to turn east to face Edi. What's to stop Jamie =
from heading east, behind your forces that have turned 180* to face Aus?
The SCARY part of that is:
1) You may feel that you can't/won't strike Edi because of such a =
threat, and I end up with an A/I.
2) Eng gets ahead of us in centers and ends up playing us off against =
Edi, growing as he does.
There are a few ways to address the issue:
1) Immediate strike on Edi now and CESSATION OF HOSTILITIES vs France.
My guess is that John will be most grateful for one less front, and, =
relieved of a southern threat, can face Eng and Ger. This angers Eng and =
maybe Ger, but buffers the West while we settle with Edi now.
2) Status quo, and we just "monitor the situation." This does nothing =
to allay the long-term problem, though.
We gtet Germany involved vs Eng...perhaps a hit on Bel, or a strike =
toward Nth Sea. Pitt will doubtless be relieved if he sees a lessened =
E/I threat, and he can fight Jamie while you either mop up on France, or =
leave him alone.
If that was done, I could always sail for Nwy and work with Pitt.
Option 3 is extreme; I don't even like to think of the QC dissolving =
before ANY initial enemy is gone. But I'm at a loss on how to deny =
England centers when he'll be stronger than either of us by 1903, AND in =
the better tactical position.
Your thoughts on all this? (I have supper waiting, so I'll return to =
this theme in a later note, ok?)
Tsar Faz
Even more unusual !
What is an austrian fleet doing in the Ionian in 1901?
Do you all agreed to make this a most noticeable game ?
In keeping with the "strange" policy, I predict a fleet in Naples for
Italy, then an attack on the Ionian to dislodge the austrian fleet, retreat
to the Eastern Med and convoy Tun-Ion-Eme-Syr in the fall, together with
a nice attack on Bulgaria and Armenia, of course. :)
And what about England sacrificing (right spelling?) Norway without being
sure of getting Bel? Or was it just to prevent France from going there?
Turkey seems to have no distant friends, too. Russia got Sweden and might even
have Norway next year, let's see if the Tsar will go for a fleet in Stp.
Bye,
Luca
Private message from England to Italy:
Geez, now *I'm* having a hard time keeping up with all the mail.
Ok, let's see.
>Umm, I wouldn't say it's an up-for-grabs centre when it's you and I
>doing
>the grabbing. Belgium really isn't an option for me so I think we
>should
>count it in as the sixth centre with you having the obvious claim on it.
Well, I meant Belgium isn't really France's territory anyway. It's not
quite like Tunis or Norway either. More like Greece.
Anyway, I don't want to quibble over one center, esp. Belgium. I want to
make it clear that it's not numbers I'm worrying about.
>I honestly feel that my position in this game won't
>start to be secure until I have 7 centres. Until then, I'm fair game
>and easy pickings to anyone powerful enough to attack.
Yes, that's fair enough. You need more centers to be secure than I do. On
the other hand, I need Portugal to be secure. Portugal in particular. I
need Norway, too, for that matter, and I'll have that. And with control of
North Sea, my position is very secure.
>Tell you what: Portugal will probably be a contentious issue between us
>for the first few years. I agree that, because of the stalemate line,
>you
>need to have Portugal in the long run. However, I will need it for the
>short term. Short term in this case being defined as until such time as
>I
>can reasonably expect to grab a centre from EAST of me. I WILL support
>you
>into Por from Spain if that's what it takes to get it off France (I'll
>certainly be easily amenable to whether or not this will be true).
>After
>that, we'll trade Por for Par (whether I own it or you take it off
>Germany)
>until the above requirement is met.
>
>Does this sound fair?
I don't quite understand it.
I don't think you're demanding Paris AND Portugal. So are you saying I
should take Por right away since/if that's tactically sounder, but then you
should get it and I should take Paris, and then later we trade back? I must
say I don't see the sense in that.
Let's try to plot out the likelihood. Most likely we will get neither
Iberian center in '02, but you will get Marseilles. If so, then in '03 we
can take Spa and Por, one each. Then Paris probably left for later, '04,
and I say you should get it. Then I'd just keep Por.
Suppose you do not get anything this year. Then still we should aim to get
you Spa and Mar and me Por in 1903. And in '04 we can still get you Paris.
There may be some scenario in which it makes sense for you to get Portugal
for a while. If you spell it out for me I can probably understand the
reasoning better.
> I don't want you thinking I'm being unreasonable
>or greedy;
(Is that what you mean, or do you mean you don't want to *be* unreasonable
and greedy? :-) :-) :-))
> I just think I have more need for it sooner than you do.
I agree, have agreed, that you have a greater need for more centers sooner
than I have.
To be clear: the reason you do is that you will have a lot of trouble
shifting your forces to attack Austria, whereas my forces will move more
easily to an anti-German position.
The only contentious issue is whether Portugal in particular is a center
you need soon. In principle I'm prepared for you to have it for a couple of
years and take it later. In practice I would like to see the kind of
scenario you have in mind.
See also the (admittedly grandiose) tri-partite division of the world I
sketched in the press to ir.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Austria:
Dear AIR Dudes,
(Cal)
>I think you're being optimistic about our chances against France at this
>point.
>If Germany was to take an ACTIVE hand in defending France, we'd be in
>quite a
>battle. However, if Edi & Mark (as well as yourself) do attack Germany
>this turn,
>then Pitt will have much more to worry about than helping France hang on
>for a
>turn or two.
No, I mean, yes, I agree with that. I meant we can manage France pretty
easily now without German *help*.
(Cal)
>Are you sure that fleet Edi wouldn't be a better move if you're about to
>attack
>Germany? Just a thought.
I think F Lvp, because I intend to move against both France and Germany,
and I need two fleets against each. Your (currently existing) fleet will
not be able to help me into MAO, I'm sure. France's fleet will keep me out
of MAO unless I add another fleet on my west side.
Edi:
>Hey folks, I am visiting Oregon and I do not have thejudge stuff here...
>How the hell do you send in builds? Just say build?
Yeah. This order will have the intended effect:
signon aghodstoo password
b a tri
b a vie
You don't even need the 'b', really, you could just write
a tri
a vie
since it's an adjustment phase and the Judge knows you have two builds.
>I take it that the Italians will build Fleet Naples, the english two fleets
>Edi(my favorite) and London
See above response to Cal. I expect to build F Lvp.
Maybe I'm miscalculating. Convince me.
>France will go for Army Paris as forced.
>Germany will go for Army Munich and it will be very interesting to see if he
>goes for Fleet Kiel or Army Kiel...I suspect he might go for Fleet Kiel given
>the English emptiness in the North.
I hope not. I am hoping he will think of the English emptiness (an unkind
phrase, sir!) as a calming influence, demonstrating that he needs no fleets
to protect him against me. Maybe a vain hope. We'll see!
>Turkey: figure on Army Smyna maybe more than likely unless he was expecting
>the Bounce in Ankara.
A Smy is good defensively. If he believes he might be saved (by Italy,
presumably) then he'll build A Smy. If he thinks that he's doomed unless he
does something desperate to shake things up, then he'll build F Smy, which
has more shake-up potential.
>France is still playing the sick man mentality and has not even thought of the
>possibility of Austria attacking Germany.
He feels hopeless. Good. I like that in a victim. :)
>Germany is still in vulture mode but will have to be watched, expect Italy and
>Russia to get strong German overtures as to what to do. One of the key things
>to watch is if he willing to go for Gascony with Brest support as opposed to
>supporting the Italians into Marselles. This combined with a build of a fleet
>may mean that he is thinking to move against England by getting behind Brest
>and pulling the Army Munich to border on Belgium with Holland hanging out.
:)
If he wants that, I'll give it to him. The further strung out he is the
better. I would not at all mind seeing Pitt set himself up to attack me,
then find his home centers suddenly at the edge of the AustroRussian swords.
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Russia:
Amici,
Faz: would you mind if Cal and I discussed Por separately? I have already
begun to do so.
I don't mind sharing my general thoughts, though. I feel that in the *long
run* Portugal should be mine. Because of the stalemate line. I expect the
details are obvious, though I am willing to go into them. I count five
specifically French dots, I don't include Belgium (which I think of as 'up
for grabs' at the outset). Nor would I include Tunis, of course, or Norway.
I suppose if the general thinking is that Italy should get Mar and Spa plus
one more from France, I much prefer that he take Paris as his third. I want
Portugal for security reasons.
I hope this is acceptable. I do understand now -- I hadn't really thought
about it earlier -- that you two are in danger of being understaffed for a
battle with Austria, esp. if there are remnants of Turkey about, which
would be assumed to be Austrian proxies. And I agree that we should get
Italy his French centers as *fast* as possible. It's just the strategic
position of Portugal that I am sticking at. I will try to be reasonable.
But I have to say that I would worry *a lot* if the two of you insisted
that Italy ought to have Portugal in the long run. I would have to wonder.
Maybe you could explain why Portugal, in particular? Again, *numbers* of
centers for each of us I take to be eminently negotiable, and I accept the
persuasive case that Italy will need some quickly.
Disposition of Denmark, Kiel, etc., I take to be wide open for now. There's
not a whole lot of point in discussing them at the moment, it seems to me.
I am committed to the general idea that the three of us should maintain a
rough equality in center-count as we progress. Who gets Denmark depends so
much on who has what else.
Getting really optimistic and looking at the really long term picture,
let's see. I get, say, Bel and Hol, Por and Bre, Nwy and Den(?). Total of
nine. Cal gets Tun, Spa, Par, Mar, Tri, Gre, Con, Smy?. Total of eleven.
Obviously Faz gets Swe, Ber, Rum, Ank, Ser, Bud. Total of ten. There are
four left: Mun, Kie, Vie, Bul. I guess I should get two of those, maybe Mun
and Kie, and Faz could get on, say Vie, and Bul is the odd one for either
of you. Something like that.
More immediately:
Cal, I certainly agree that if Germany and France were now to dig in and
fight against you and me, it would be a long slow fight, though I suspect
we have the upper hand (with just a little help from Russia). So I think we
agree that at least another season should be devoted exclusively to
anti-French activities, postponing the stabs of Germany and Austria for a
little while longer. When you pick up one of Mar, Spa, and I add Nwy to my
sack, then I'd be ready to go. And at that point Germany would, so the plan
goes, have more pressing concerns than helping the French Friend.
I'm a little more sanguine about your combined chances against Austria than
you guys seem to be. I am assuming you get a good stabbing move in, so by
the time the board shapes up to be a clear I/R/E against everybody, we have
'em outweighed by maybe 20 to 14. Shouldn't that be a decisive advantage??
Well, let us build and tend our local gardens for another season.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as England to Italy in 'ghodstoo':
> Let's just talk about Por between the two of us for now.
>
> Ok, my general feeling is that Por should be mine in the long run. Because
> of the stalemate line. Do I need to go into details?
Nope.
> I am willing to agree that Par is yours in the long run. This seems fair
> (Bel, Bre, Por, vs. Mar, Spa, Par) to me (though really I think of Bel as
> having a different status from the others; the other five are properly
> French and must be counted as spoils of invading France, while Bel is
> really an up-for-grabs center).
Umm, I wouldn't say it's an up-for-grabs centre when it's you and I
doing
the grabbing. Belgium really isn't an option for me so I think we
should
count it in as the sixth centre with you having the obvious claim on it.
> I admit I had not really thought about your short-run needs; and I agree
> that you do need some quick builds, or anyway as quick as possible. Hm.
That's a definite. I honestly feel that my position in this game won't
start to be secure until I have 7 centres. Until then, I'm fair game
and easy pickings to anyone powerful enough to attack.
> When I get into MAO, I will support you into Spain, and I'll ask for your
> support into Portugal after that. And I won't request support from any of
> your units otherwise, since you will clearly need every bit you can muster
> to ensure a couple of builds as fast as you can get them. We may assume
> that Paris won't come until later.
Tell you what: Portugal will probably be a contentious issue between us
for the first few years. I agree that, because of the stalemate line,
you
need to have Portugal in the long run. However, I will need it for the
short term. Short term in this case being defined as until such time as
I
can reasonably expect to grab a centre from EAST of me. I WILL support
you
into Por from Spain if that's what it takes to get it off France (I'll
certainly be easily amenable to whether or not this will be true).
After
that, we'll trade Por for Par (whether I own it or you take it off
Germany)
until the above requirement is met.
Does this sound fair? I don't want you thinking I'm being unreasonable
or
greedy; I just think I have more need for it sooner than you do.
> I'm afraid it's not just paranoia for you to worry about France throwing
> his remaining weight against your attack. He doesn't really have much else
> to do. If he's going to pick one attacker to resist, it pretty much has to
> be you. He might hope to frustrate you and change your mind. Anyway it
> looks like his only (feeble) hope.
Yeah, I think you're right. Well, I'll just have to do my best until
you/Pitt weaken him enough that I can grab my dots. grin
Regards
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
Hi Mark: let's take this one-on-one for a bit.
So far things have gone well, but I'm starting to wonder about what the
plans are in Stage III of this game (Stage II being us hitting G/T).
Jamie has written me privately talking about Portugal. He seems pretty
determined that Por will be HIS in the long run. He wants it for the
right reason - he knows that Por is crucial to him holding a stalemate
line against any threat from the Med.
That's prety much exactly the reason I DON'T want it to be his now or
later. I'm hoping you can talk him into believing that it will be
better for me to have it now and him later. It'll just work out so I
don't end up giving it back to him... heh heh.
Of course, this is all predicated on the fact that you and I are
sticking together through all the various stages. I think that's what
we've been driving towards since the first moves. I'm all for this but
what worries me is that once F/T are gone and we engage G/T, then Jamie
will really have no one to stop him if he decides to come through the
Med. Given the limited availability of centres for me, if he moves on
me in force once I'm involved with Edi, he could conceivably push me
back quickly enough that an 18 center English win is at least
imaginable. Once he got up to 14 or 15 centres, he wouldn't need to
take too much off you to cross the Stp-Mun-Tun victory line.
Comments? I know that we're a long way from worrying about this, but
it's better to start thinking about it now.
Regards
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to Italy and England in
> 'ghodstoo':
>
> Hi again Guys
> Look! I've correctly erased all those follow-on notes this time! Do I
> get my doggie treat now?
Dunno. Can you beg? grin
> As for western spoils, I can only offer my 2-cents as an outsider. I
> would venture to say that if England gets 2/3 of France and all the Low
> Countries (not to mention covetous eyes toward Den), then Italy should
> have Mar and get ALL of Iberia--at a time to be determined by you all.
> The east is also up for grabs (figuratively). I mean, which of us gets
> Den? Where does Russia carve up portions of Ger? Just Berlin, or Kie,
> too? (Edi will obviously want Mun). I say this not as an aggrieved
> party trying to argue over countries not even attacked yet(!!), but just
> for the implications of available centers for the follow-on attack vs G
> and A, and what that entails from the second front.
>
> I mean, Cal seems pretty assured that we'll take Edi down, but I ask:
> with what? By 1903 Edi will have his 5 from 1902, plus Bul and possibly
> Con or Smy. Cal's units will end up sailing to Lyo and Wes, perhaps?
> And there'll be an army Tunis and one in Mar, which leaves ???what??? vs
> Austria? And don't forget, if Edi gets fat over Turkey quicker than we
> all expect, he could easily turn on you with Ion and a convoyed army
> while you are knee-deep in France and without a significant set of
> builds (or turn on me with a vengence-minded Turk puppet when I've
> tipped my hand to Pitt) That's all DOUBTFUL right now, because he'll be
> content on reducing Turkey with me until late 1903 or so, but I have
> some concerns over unit availability to hit him with--especially from
> Italy. Hence my plug for a green Por, vice a navy blue one.
That was pretty much the point I was trying to make when I suggested
that
I get Portugal. If I don't have the units, I can't help against Edi
and,
if I can't help against Edi, Mark's prospects look pretty grim,
especially
if Pitt or Hohn have ANY units left to puppet to him.
Now if it comes down to where, tactically, Jamie is in position to take
Portugal and eliminate France, I have no problem with this. I just want
to be sure that I will be able to claim it as soon as is reasonably
feasible.
> As for the War thing: I've already sent said message to Pitt, asking
> him if he'd consider it untoward if I built there, given that Edi will
> "probably" build As Vie and Bud (ok, so I fibbed a little). I can
> visualize the expected reply, but it doesn't matter in the long run: if
> three nations converge on him, the outcome is foregone.
>
> Anyway, that's the Tsar's cut on the West, from the panut gallery. I
> appreciate your Eastern advice, and if you can get the lowdown on any
> Turkish moves, I'd like to hear 'em. I expect comms to be shut off with
> him for the immediate future...
I'll pass along anything I hear and see if I can calm any fears Pitt
projects my way about your build in War. Doubt if I'll hear much from
Hohn since I haven't since S'01.
Regards
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as England to Austria, Italy and Russia in
> 'ghodstoo':
> I think it is fair to say that Cal and I no longer need the cooperation of
> the Germans to overrun France. Assuming that the full force of the Italian
> contingent will be brought to bear, I will need only a skeleton crew
> hereafter to render ruin to the Hall of Mirrors, etc. Thus, I will be able
> to do my part in the vivisection of Germany. At some point I would like to
> discuss the fair division of those spoils, but I'm in no rush and have no
> particular fear that I'll be cut out or anything.
I think you're being optimistic about our chances against France at this
point.
If Germany was to take an ACTIVE hand in defending France, we'd be in
quite a
battle. However, if Edi & Mark (as well as yourself) do attack Germany
this turn,
then Pitt will have much more to worry about than helping France hang on
for a
turn or two.
> It does seem to me that the most direct approach is the best for us, for us
> all, for our alliance, for our plan. That is to say, we should all simply
> build and move forthrightly against Germany, never fearing about tipping
> our hands. What can he do, after all? At worst he could plan defensively
> and make our task a bit slower, but we are in no hurry, we four, we lucky
> four. (Of course I only mean that the three of us, Edi, Faz, Jamie, should
> move against Germany.)
As long as the move is made by all three of you, I think it would
succeed
even if the builds did tip off our hand.
> I must say that Germany seems to be an awfully good guesser after my
> motives. There's no leak among us, is there? No, of course not, perish the
> thought.
Hey, I'm for sale for the right price. Just make sure the cash is in
good
multi-coloured Canadian money, eh? grin
> As to adjustments: you can certainly expect two new fleets for me; one to
> take Norway and prepare my permanent grip on North Sea, and the other (F
> Lvp) to facilitate my incursion into MAO, the final blow to the French
> resistance. Obviously Cal must build a fleet (Rome, I imagine?). Edi is
> committed (as I recall) to two armies for use against the Germans. Faz
> agonizes over his second build (the one that isn't A Sev), but my feeling
> is that A War is the best (in keeping with my 'straightforward' suggestion).
Are you sure that fleet Edi wouldn't be a better move if you're about to
attack
Germany? Just a thought.
> Stage One of the Gran Plan is well underway; let's begin the preliminaries
> of Stage Two (the Oktoberfest stage, shall we say?) asap, yes?
Sounds good to me.
Regards
Cal
Vienna(Free Press)
The misty shroud that hung over the Dark Tower echoed with not too distant
thunder. The flashes of the tower top's purple glow added shadows in the sky
as night riders came in with news of the world on the wings of the unseen.
"So the French have taken to a Croissant Opening holding their forces in a
great arch from Marseilles to Portugal. Too bad the British put some mustard
on it and the Germans added a sour Burgundy to the meal.
"As for the south the Turks seem to be prepared to turn their own Crescent
stretching from Bulgaria to Ankara to face the northern bear.
"Now what is this build up near Transylvania all about? That is most
unsettling and makes one thirsty in anticipation.
"Alas we have to call out the militia and dust off the ancient weapons to
lunge once again into the fray."
Private message from England to Italy:
Hi,
Let's just talk about Por between the two of us for now.
Ok, my general feeling is that Por should be mine in the long run. Because
of the stalemate line. Do I need to go into details?
I am willing to agree that Par is yours in the long run. This seems fair
(Bel, Bre, Por, vs. Mar, Spa, Par) to me (though really I think of Bel as
having a different status from the others; the other five are properly
French and must be counted as spoils of invading France, while Bel is
really an up-for-grabs center).
I admit I had not really thought about your short-run needs; and I agree
that you do need some quick builds, or anyway as quick as possible. Hm.
When I get into MAO, I will support you into Spain, and I'll ask for your
support into Portugal after that. And I won't request support from any of
your units otherwise, since you will clearly need every bit you can muster
to ensure a couple of builds as fast as you can get them. We may assume
that Paris won't come until later.
I'm afraid it's not just paranoia for you to worry about France throwing
his remaining weight against your attack. He doesn't really have much else
to do. If he's going to pick one attacker to resist, it pretty much has to
be you. He might hope to frustrate you and change your mind. Anyway it
looks like his only (feeble) hope.
Well, further strategic thoughts later, there's plenty of time.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Italy to Master:
Pitt: well, that went quite smoothly! Thanks for the tip on France's
move; it worked out quite well for both of us.
What are the odds of you supporting me to Marseilles this turn? I don't
really have any other hope for a build this year. I realize this could
jeopardize your chances of taking Paris, should France move from Spain
to Gascony but I really think that he'll be defending against me for
some reason. Maybe I didn't talk to him enough or something... Perhaps
England might be willing to support you in should France get into
Gascony. I think it's worth a shot (in my biased opinion), but I'd like
to hear your views.
Regards
Cal
Private message from Russia to England:
Hi again Guys
Look! I've correctly erased all those follow-on notes this time! Do I
get my doggie treat now?
As for western spoils, I can only offer my 2-cents as an outsider. I
would venture to say that if England gets 2/3 of France and all the Low
Countries (not to mention covetous eyes toward Den), then Italy should
have Mar and get ALL of Iberia--at a time to be determined by you all.
The east is also up for grabs (figuratively). I mean, which of us gets
Den? Where does Russia carve up portions of Ger? Just Berlin, or Kie,
too? (Edi will obviously want Mun). I say this not as an aggrieved
party trying to argue over countries not even attacked yet(!!), but just
for the implications of available centers for the follow-on attack vs G
and A, and what that entails from the second front.
I mean, Cal seems pretty assured that we'll take Edi down, but I ask:
with what? By 1903 Edi will have his 5 from 1902, plus Bul and possibly
Con or Smy. Cal's units will end up sailing to Lyo and Wes, perhaps?
And there'll be an army Tunis and one in Mar, which leaves ???what??? vs
Austria? And don't forget, if Edi gets fat over Turkey quicker than we
all expect, he could easily turn on you with Ion and a convoyed army
while you are knee-deep in France and without a significant set of
builds (or turn on me with a vengence-minded Turk puppet when I've
tipped my hand to Pitt) That's all DOUBTFUL right now, because he'll be
content on reducing Turkey with me until late 1903 or so, but I have
some concerns over unit availability to hit him with--especially from
Italy. Hence my plug for a green Por, vice a navy blue one.
As for the War thing: I've already sent said message to Pitt, asking
him if he'd consider it untoward if I built there, given that Edi will
"probably" build As Vie and Bud (ok, so I fibbed a little). I can
visualize the expected reply, but it doesn't matter in the long run: if
three nations converge on him, the outcome is foregone.
Anyway, that's the Tsar's cut on the West, from the panut gallery. I
appreciate your Eastern advice, and if you can get the lowdown on any
Turkish moves, I'd like to hear 'em. I expect comms to be shut off with
him for the immediate future...
Tsar Faz
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as England to Italy and Russia in
> 'ghodstoo':
> 1. Note to Cal: I wonder whether you noticed the recent Faz-pas: he
> included my PRESS TO IR at the bottom of his PRESS TO AIRE. I have
> admonished the e-novice separately, and he seems properly contrite.
I noticed. I also he did it the other day in a note to the three of us
which was obviously being quoted from some mail I hadn't received.
Seeing someone behind my back, eh Faz? Okay, who is she?!? :)
> 2. Thoughts on the German A Burg.
> I don't think he'll be too eager to support Cal into Mar. For if French A
> Mar is dislodged it will retreat to Gas, and then Pitt's chances of taking
> Paris decline. I will offer the support of my A Bre to Pitt, with the idea
> of drawing his troops into France to increase the effectiveness of the
> Eastern and Southern Ground Attacks.
As mentioned in my other reply, I'd appreciate it if you could do that
as I
will certainly need a build soon if I'm to continue against France and
still have units to back up an eventual attack on Edi.
> 3. Other tactical issues.
> I can't think of any of common concern at the moment. My general intention
> is to build two fleets, use one to sail over to Norway and the other would
> be F Lvp; Lvp-Iri, preparing to force my way into MAO in the Fall and
> harvest Portugal in '03 (and/or support Cal to Spain if necessary). I would
> have F Eng-MAO (BOUNCE) in Spring '02, also, to keep the French fleet
> locked up in Por, otherwise I have to worry about holding on to Bre.
> Otherwise I don't know what I ought to do. The F Bel could go right after
> Germany, but it doesn't have any even mildly promising moves in that
> direction, so it would be a lot better if I can wait until I have a F Nth
> for support of Bel-Hol (or to dig in to Helg, or support Swe-Den, ...).
I'm comfortable with you taking Portugal, but I think it should be mine
in
the long run. Opportunities for me to take centres are a bit limited in
this direction. Once the attack on Edi is underway and I have better
opportunities we can then decide who should get it. I'm not dead set
against the idea so if you don't think it's fair, let me know.
> 4. It's possible that France will do everything to keep Cal from making
> much progress. That affects only timing. As far as I'm concerned, Cal gets
> Spa and Mar no matter what France does, and I get Portugal. Germany gets
> Paris temporarily, maybe; which of us takes it later might be left open, to
> depend on who really needs the build at the time, fairness in distribution
> of centers among the allies, etc. (Oh, sorry Cal, I meant 'centres'.) But
> timing is still important. I figure that's something the two of you can
> best work out between you, yes? I'm speaking of the timing of turning the
> blades against Austria.
I have the same feeling about France's intentions to defend against me
while
you guys feast on his carcass (paranoid? who? me?). This is probably
the
biggest factor in timing any attack on Austria. Obviously, if I don't
have
the builds to turn east, then Mark's job against Edi will be much
harder.
That's why I am hesitant about Portugal. I think I may need it to be
effective in any eastward effort. We'll play it by ear, okay Jamie?
Regards fellow q-ites
Cal
Private message from England to Russia:
Ah, yes, that; allow me to explain, Marcus Fazius.
That tidbit was for Edi's consumption.
A short while back, Pitt told me that he had heard that I had made
significant advances toward an E/I alliance. (That was what I meant by 'my
intentions', not any particular moves.) For evidence he cited A Pie, of
course, but noted also that he'd heard a rumor. Well, I am guessing at the
source of that rumor. I very strongly suspect that Edi is tossing more fish
on the frypan, influencing Germany to lean his defenses in my direction,
sowing the seeds of future A/G cooperation, etc.
I wanted to let Edi know that I smelled something. For one thing, I don't
want him to think he can get away with those tricks too easily. More
important, I want to set out a good explanation, just an implied one, for
why I did not include him in those thoughts to you and Cal about arranging
our next moves. The implication was supposed to be: "There may be a leak,
so I'll tend to share my thoughts on the old need-to-know basis."
Nothing to worry about. I 'assured' Pitt that I had no serious alliance
with Italy, and even suggested that I believed it was someone else (Edi, of
course) that did the real persuasion leading to Ven-Pie. Give Pitt more
things to worry about.
So, now you know.
Gentle King Jamie
p.s. Aha, suddenly there's Cal all talkative! And in the daytime! Never a
dull moment.
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to Italy and England in
> 'ghodstoo':
> For us: I probably could've tried for the moves as Edi envisioned
> them--we would've had an even better stranglehold on Hohn by now.
> Still, he can only build in Smy, so that halps out. Ican force Arm (or
> bounce him perpetually) and he's doomed in Bul/Con for '02, so it's not
> a big deal.
Can't win 'em all. We still came out pretty well over all.
> Russian builds: This is a tough one. Germany may request a northern
> build, given the apparent quick death coming to France and the "teaming"
> of E/I. I will be *hard pressed* to argue against why I shouldn't be
> taking an unguarded Nwy that's "ripe for the taking, " as Germany will
> doubtless see it. Any good cover stories?
All I can think of is that you found out some reason that you have to
fear
Austrian treachery and need the extra army for "defensive purposes".
This
is pretty thin, but is about the best you can do. It'll be YOUR job to
make it sound convincing... heh heh.
> Much of my build considerations depend on you two--and Edi. I mean, if
> you want/need Germany to get deeper into France before you stab him,
> then I'm not going to invade Sil alone and tip our hand. If, on the
> other hand, you're moving now vs Germany with Bel and a new fleet, then
> I'll mobilize and also join in. From the sound of it, though,England
> wants its fleets for position (Nwy and Mao), vice a 1902 hit on Germany
> -- so you're saying 1903 at the earliest is German hit time??? If
> that's the case, I expect much pressure (and lying to Germany) over me
> building ANYWHERE else but Sev and StP....
I think France's position still has too much play in it to ease up on
him
this year. He can certainly put up an aggressive defense against me
anyway.
If all we can bring to bear this year would be a single army in SIl and
a
single fleet in Bel, then 1903 seems like a better time, no?
> The ideal Faz builds are A Sev, A War. However, War sends the
> immediate flag to Germany. Advice, please????
If you use the cover story I outlined above, you can build in Mos and
tell
Pitt you didn't want to alarm him as much as a build in Warsaw would
have.
> The French hit was pure silk. I had also urged Germany to coordinate
> with Cal as regards a Bur-Mar move/hold sequence, and Jamie's ballsy
> grab of Brest was pure joy! France will be completely dead in another
> 3-4 turns, max. You guys are awesome.
I have Pitt to thank for it. His last minute note contained the comment
that he was sure France would move exactly the way he DID move. I just
took the chance that he was right by not moving to Mar.
> How about Austria, Cal? You're going to be building a fleet, I assume,
> to keep up the westward movement??? And is Germany going to help you vs
> Mar this turn? If that's the case, you're obviously going to be doing
> 1902 in the same "gain/move" mode as Jamie, meaning Edi is secure until
> 1903 at the earliest (and that translates into another 1-2 gains for
> him).
I'll certainly be ASKING him for support to Mar. Jamie, if you could
offer
him support into Paris for the Fall, that would help my case greatly.
As for Austria, it's true that he will probably have another two units
if
we hold off til '03, but with the 2-way attack from both sides, we
should
still be able to bring him down regardless.
> In a way, I wish I wouldn't have burned all my bridges with Turkey.
> Hitting Edi with Turkey still alive would only cause them to make an
> alliance of convenience against me. But hitting Edi after Hohn dies
> means he may beat me to the punch!!! Decisions, decisions.
You'll still have me to hit Edi from behind, so it's not as bad as
all that.
Cheers
Cal
Private message from Russia to England:
King James
The news about Germany being "a good guesser" after your moves piqued my
curiosity. How exactly did he 'guess" correctly? Did you TELL any of
us QC folks how you were moving? I mean, his hold in Den showed he
didn't sail for Nth when it was open (even tho' he would've been crazy
to do so). And his grab of Bur and Hol seem pretty dang straightforward
to me. Of course, I say that as an "outsider" and not cognizant of all
the diplomacy between you, I and G up there....just curious, is all. If
Germany's that good a clairvoyant, I better shut my mind down as I plan
1902!
Tsar Faz
Private message from Russia to Germany:
Hi again Pitt,
I forgot to add this to my first note. If Austria shows signs of
building two armies on the borders (either yours Vie/Tri or mine
Vie/Bud), I might consider an Army Warsaw myself. This way, Ukr S
War-Gal (in the extreme case). I have no indications that will indeed
even happen, but I'm trying to visualize every extant circumstance and
cover my rather large butt...But before I do, I want to 'clear" it with
you and not make any antagonistic impressions.
Again, it's a 1-in-6 consideration, but it covers the last of my
(options) bases. Your thoughts on the build or general geographical
situation?
Tsar Faz
Private message from England to Russia:
Conspirators,
Here are my general thoughts on our progress, past and prospective.
I think it is fair to say that Cal and I no longer need the cooperation of
the Germans to overrun France. Assuming that the full force of the Italian
contingent will be brought to bear, I will need only a skeleton crew
hereafter to render ruin to the Hall of Mirrors, etc. Thus, I will be able
to do my part in the vivisection of Germany. At some point I would like to
discuss the fair division of those spoils, but I'm in no rush and have no
particular fear that I'll be cut out or anything.
It does seem to me that the most direct approach is the best for us, for us
all, for our alliance, for our plan. That is to say, we should all simply
build and move forthrightly against Germany, never fearing about tipping
our hands. What can he do, after all? At worst he could plan defensively
and make our task a bit slower, but we are in no hurry, we four, we lucky
four. (Of course I only mean that the three of us, Edi, Faz, Jamie, should
move against Germany.)
I must say that Germany seems to be an awfully good guesser after my
motives. There's no leak among us, is there? No, of course not, perish the
thought.
As to adjustments: you can certainly expect two new fleets for me; one to
take Norway and prepare my permanent grip on North Sea, and the other (F
Lvp) to facilitate my incursion into MAO, the final blow to the French
resistance. Obviously Cal must build a fleet (Rome, I imagine?). Edi is
committed (as I recall) to two armies for use against the Germans. Faz
agonizes over his second build (the one that isn't A Sev), but my feeling
is that A War is the best (in keeping with my 'straightforward' suggestion).
Stage One of the Gran Plan is well underway; let's begin the preliminaries
of Stage Two (the Oktoberfest stage, shall we say?) asap, yes?
Cheers! (preferably with a mug of pilsner in some lovely biergarten)
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Russia:
Amici,
1. Note to Cal: I wonder whether you noticed the recent Faz-pas: he
included my PRESS TO IR at the bottom of his PRESS TO AIRE. I have
admonished the e-novice separately, and he seems properly contrite.
2. Thoughts on the German A Burg.
I don't think he'll be too eager to support Cal into Mar. For if French A
Mar is dislodged it will retreat to Gas, and then Pitt's chances of taking
Paris decline. I will offer the support of my A Bre to Pitt, with the idea
of drawing his troops into France to increase the effectiveness of the
Eastern and Southern Ground Attacks.
3. Other tactical issues.
I can't think of any of common concern at the moment. My general intention
is to build two fleets, use one to sail over to Norway and the other would
be F Lvp; Lvp-Iri, preparing to force my way into MAO in the Fall and
harvest Portugal in '03 (and/or support Cal to Spain if necessary). I would
have F Eng-MAO (BOUNCE) in Spring '02, also, to keep the French fleet
locked up in Por, otherwise I have to worry about holding on to Bre.
Otherwise I don't know what I ought to do. The F Bel could go right after
Germany, but it doesn't have any even mildly promising moves in that
direction, so it would be a lot better if I can wait until I have a F Nth
for support of Bel-Hol (or to dig in to Helg, or support Swe-Den, ...).
4. It's possible that France will do everything to keep Cal from making
much progress. That affects only timing. As far as I'm concerned, Cal gets
Spa and Mar no matter what France does, and I get Portugal. Germany gets
Paris temporarily, maybe; which of us takes it later might be left open, to
depend on who really needs the build at the time, fairness in distribution
of centers among the allies, etc. (Oh, sorry Cal, I meant 'centres'.) But
timing is still important. I figure that's something the two of you can
best work out between you, yes? I'm speaking of the timing of turning the
blades against Austria.
5. I think I'd better send something to aire together, just to reduce
suspicions. Stand by.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Russia:
No worries, just wanted to make sure you were aware of the problem. No
problems I can't handle, anyway. (Remember, I am geographically safe from
any Edi schemes for the time being! The only possible unpleasant
repercussion is if Edi decides the AIRE is really bad news for him and
starts to alert Pitt.)
Actually, a message you sent a couple of days ago also had the 'endpress'
and 'signoff' nullified by >s, but nothing followed them. I noticed it and
was going to mention it, but then I didn't. So I bear some of the
responsibility :(.
------
Here are my immediate thoughts on builds.
I am inclined not to plan an attack of my own on Germany this year,
certainly not in the Spring (well, almost certainly). I expect I'll be
quite ready to do it in '03.
Your choices, then, must depend on what you think Edi will do. Will he
really surround Mun in the Spring? You might want to attack right away,
then, on the theory that Germany just won't have the guns to resist. In
that case you could just build F Stp(sc) and German objections be damned!
Or anyway A War.
A somewhat plausible excuse (to Germany) for building A War would be that
you are convinced that Edi has a nasty plan in store for you. It's possible
that Pitt may in fact try to convince you of just such a thing, in fact (it
came up in the only long note Pitt has sent me).
Finally, if it comes to that, I wouldn't mind too much if you built A Stp.
The plan would be Stp-Nwy in Spring, and then Nwy-Swe, Swe-Bal! in the
Fall; or if you like, just Swe H, Stp-Lvn in the Spring, that has some
things to say for it too. Of course, I would have a fleet ready to snatch
Nwy in the Fall. In fact I'd probably have two fleets ready (so don't get
any grandiose ideas, cousin!). Hmmmm. Interesting possibilities there.
Well, if you do go for that option, we can discuss the various
continuations after the builds, ok?
By the way: I expect Pitt to use the A Burg for his own purposes, not to
escort Cal into Mar. Oh, I'll explain that in a separate note to the two of
you, that is, in press to ir.
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Russia to England:
Yoiks!
I didn't notice that carat thing, or the fact I included your message.
My deepest apologies (and embarrassment)--I got sloppy, it seems. Which
is ironic, because I was trying to be so dang careful about me sending a
secondary message to you all and editing out the "Edi gets the sanitized
version" portions of mine, that I screw up regarding yours! I'm sorry,
Jamie.
I assure you, I am
A Most Chastened (and e-mail Aware)
Tsar Faz
Private message from England to Russia:
Holy shit.
Take a close look at what you just did, sir. You included, in your press to
aie, *my* message that was addressed only to you and Cal.
The technical reason that happened is that your 'endpress' was rendered
null by the little caret '>' before it. Look closely, you'll see what I
mean.
I don't think there was any big harm done this time, because my embedded
message said nothing that I don't want Edi to read; but my heart was in my
throat when I saw that old message of mine chugging in after your
>endpress
>signoff
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be more careful, dearest cousin.
I think the best thing to do is make no mention of the gaff to Edi. Nothing
really embarassing, nothing to alert the Birs-monster to any trouble
brewing, but making a big deal out of it could give him more to think about
than just letting it slide by.
I will address the substance of your note soon, by the way.
Bottoms Up!
Nervous Wreck King Jamie
Private message from Russia to Turkey:
Hi Hohn
yes, I'm a rat. You probably envisioned that before the moves, but you
still gave me the benefit of the doubt (again). So now I have a double
black-mark (and bad conscience) for hitting you.
All I can say is, this started with Edi and a grand plan for certain of
us. I wanted something more than a "standard" R/T, and thought an
anti-Turk opening with Edi would be different...and if I died, well, the
game's over that much quicker for me.
I don't expect you to ever trust me again, and I won't propose any
ideas to you for that reason. Still, not everything I do this game will
be anti-Turk, as you will soon see. You will doubtless be true to your
earlier threat of building and directing all against me and letting Edi
have the bulk of the spoils; that's expected and understood. It's also
ironic, in that I'm the hatchet man, and Edi's the creative genius
behind it all.
I expect A Smy, and then fights over Armenia and various bounces. Edi
gets Bul (even without me) and after that, it's a crapshoot. But like I
said, Russia has other directions to gaze in, and you never know.
Still, my apologies. You almost won me over with your phone call,
because anyone who goes the extra mile to make his point is Great Player
in my books. You've certainly been more prolific and communicative than
50% of this board, and that's also a conscience hit for me. Well, I
made my bargain with the devil....good luck, Hohn. You deserve better
than me for a neighbor. I think it's going to be hard to call off the
A/I/R dogs of war at this stage, but I will *always* write (if you wish)
and always wish to hear from you and everyone, every season.
Gamesmanship, and whatnot...
Good hunting
Tsar Faz (aka, "Son of Satan" to the Turk)
Private message from Russia to France:
John, Will do. I also see Germany as the weak link. In fact, I just
sent him a note asking him to consider you going to Pic while he does
Bur-Bel (Hol S) and Den-Nth, thus gaining Bel (instead of Par!) and also
crushing the fleet...not to mention the chance of him getting Nth and a
convoy option!
Keep this under your hat, but I've heard that Eng intends to build 2
fleets (obviously), one of which will be F Lvp. This merely solidifies
the obvious EI connection, and may be good info to consider when working
on Pitt.
I'll do what I can. Don't give up the ship (of state)!
Tsar Faz
Private message from Russia to Germany:
Noble Kaiser
First off, my effusive thanks for Sweden. You are a man of your word,
and a man of keen vision for the future--much goodwill was bought with
that gesture!
Next, I wish to discuss the idea of further cooperation. The E/I storm
clouds grown more visible each day. I know for the moment you are
joining in the FranceFleshFest, for your relative gain as well as
theirs. However, I expect them to probably ask you for support to Mar,
etc, before you manage to get Paris (unless you can sweet-talk Gentle
King James)? In essence, I sense a Rommel-like "dash to the wire"
with you all, to see who can build more quickly and then beat the other
to the punch. Hopefully you will be in a better position than they.
I have heard from England, who still wants Nwy, wants me not to build in
StP, and who *SAYS* he'll be building F Lon/Edi and F Lvp...one for MAo
duty and the other to Nwy.
CONFIDENTIAL: If, Pitt, you think the time to hit England should come
sooner, vice later, you might want to consider Den-Nth as a
bounce/invasion piece, *or perhaps your armies hitting Bel as you sail
Den-Nth.* This annihilates Bel (or at least forces it back onto Pic)
and either gets you Nth, or bounces it. In fall, I could support you
there from nwy (if you're not already in there), and you can always prep
a convoy unit in late '02/early '03. I mean, England's anticipated
builds are Nwy (1902) and Portugal/Spain (1903, probably). An earlier,
vice later, hit cuts Bel out of the equation, and catches him in
southerly stride.
I say this fully expecting you to NOT embrace the idea -- it is, after
all, a major risk for us both, given that E/I are chummy, and Aus
espouses chumminess with us all, forcing us to be cautious in a sea of
sharks. Still, if you're concerned with E/I, then I at least offer it
up as another option/consideration....nothing to sweat over if you're
agin' the idea.
Anyway, *we're* still tight and friendly, and will be so for the
duration, if you so desire.
Tsar Faz
Private message from France to Austria:
I should have listened to you, Edi. Now, my ship is sinking fast.
If you'd give my Italian friend a little hell, this might not be totally
hopeless. I imagine your attention lies to the east, but I think you and
Russia have enough firepower to take the Sultan out already. Might as well
start on the other front right away.
John
France
Private message from France to Russia:
I tried to appeal to Germany's interests, too. He does not stand to gain
much from EI dominance of the west. If he sees reason, his unit in
Burgundy could prove helpful. But, in truth, things don't look good for
me.
Four units on the board is still a viable situation. I won't give up until
they haul me out feet first.
Work on Germany for me. He's the only weak link.
Vive La France!
Private message from Russia to France:
Hi John
Well, my title says it all -- there is a concerted effort to hose you in
the quickest amount of time possible. Given that "talk is cheap," let
me offer my own advice, if I may...
1) Drink heavily
2) Talk to Pitt and stress to him the FOLLY of his vulture-like actions
against you, when E/I stand to get Iberia and the lion's share of the
region (as them as a teamed power). I have already mentioned this once
to him, and will do so again.
3) Continue drinking heavily.
If you ever want/need advice (and I have it available) I'll keep you in
the loop. It does Russia little good to see overbearing E/Is strutting
around the board--especially if one or both of them are also chummy with
the Kaiser. I'll do what I can to help you (and, indirectly, me).
Tsar Faz
Private message from Russia to England:
Fellow Quadripartiters!
We couldn't really be asking for much more this game, methinks! Edi's
grand plan seems to working well and looks to work even better in the
very near future.
>From me, a *mea cupla* of stupidity regarding the moves. I
overanticipated Hohn's defensive plan, giving him more aggressive credit
>than , in retrospect, I should have. As such, I should've done the moves as
>Edi recommended--we would've had an even better stranglehold on Hohn by now.
On the "bright side," though:
1) Turkey can only build in Smy (I expect an army there, thence to Arm
against me).
2) I can force Arm (or bounce him perpetually), and this allows Edi and
>I the chance to leisurely crush Bul and Con. He's doomed in Bul/Con for '02,
>so it's not a big deal.
3) Me being in Ukr does two things: it allows me to snooker Pitt by
making it seem like I trust no one down there, and it also allows me to
compensate for the missing A Mos (Lvn) by having a possible A War-Sil
and A Ukr-War (then to Pru). This still gives Russia two units (three
with the fleet) vs Germany.
One build for me is Sev, guaranteed. The other build will be a harder
>one as regards Germany. He may request a northern build, given the apparent
>quick death coming to France and the "teaming" threat from E/I. I will be
>*hard pressed* to argue against why I shouldn't be taking an unguarded Nwy
>that's "ripe for the taking, " as Germany will doubtless see it. Any good
>cover stories?
>
>The French hit was pure silk; Edi called it right. I had also urged Germany
>to coordinate with Cal as regards a Bur-Mar move/hold sequence, and Jamie's
>ballsy grab of Brest was pure joy! France will be completely dead in
>another 3-4 turns, max. You guys are awesome.
Guys, how do we stand with the follow-on mission against Germany? Edi,
are we on track for the 1902 Tyo-Boh-Sil invasions? Cal and Jamie, I
imagine your attacks will come in 1903, after you each gain one more
center and get prepped???? (Sort of a 1-2 punch.) Much of my build
consideration and movement will depend on how we all decide to crunch
Germany, and when.
Again, good moves to all. Edi, let me know how we will crack the
Turkish nut this turn: I'd like to see you take Bul, and then support
me to Con in fall, if possible. Maybe split the area via Bul + Smy for
you, Ank + Con for me?
Take care, guys, and good hunting. Let me know what's happening.
>
>Tsar Faz
>endpress
>signoff
>
>
>
>----------
>From: USIN Diplomacy Judge[SMTP:[email protected]]
>Sent: Friday, February 14, 1997 9:31 AM
>To: Fassio, M. MAJ SOC
>Subject: Diplomacy notice: ghodstoo
>
> News about USIN can be found at
> http://kleiman.indianapolis.in.us/usin.htm
>
> All unmoderated games will be removed.
> Judge keeper is [email protected].
> Judge address is [email protected]
>
>Message from [email protected] as England to Italy and Russia in
>'ghodstoo':
>
>Allies, Bon Vivants, Tricky Devils;
>
>Good work. Glad Cal worked out that arrangement with Pitt, it means a
>rapider death for Frenchie. Faz gets his two. I get my two and I have
>crippled France (can't build a fleet).
>
>I think I'd like to see how everyone builds; then, if I'm not mistaken,
>it's time for me to make a serious decisions (will I come right out and
>attack Germany in '02? or should I focus on picking up Norway and preparing
>to take Portugal? Though we didn't discuss it in advance, I am assuming
>that Cal agrees that Portugal is to be mine.)
>
>Oh--I will build two fleets, obviously. I need one to take Norway, and I
>need another (F Lvp) to make sure I get into MAO. Cal's build is obvious.
>Faz, how will you play it?
>
>
>Cheers!
>Gentle King Jamie
>
>
>
>
Private message from Russia to England:
Hi guys
Will be sending out a more inclusive version of this note (i.e., the
"sanitized version," to include Edi) soon; most will be repititious.
For us: I probably could've tried for the moves as Edi envisioned
them--we would've had an even better stranglehold on Hohn by now.
Still, he can only build in Smy, so that halps out. Ican force Arm (or
bounce him perpetually) and he's doomed in Bul/Con for '02, so it's not
a big deal.
Russian builds: This is a tough one. Germany may request a northern
build, given the apparent quick death coming to France and the "teaming"
of E/I. I will be *hard pressed* to argue against why I shouldn't be
taking an unguarded Nwy that's "ripe for the taking, " as Germany will
doubtless see it. Any good cover stories?
Much of my build considerations depend on you two--and Edi. I mean, if
you want/need Germany to get deeper into France before you stab him,
then I'm not going to invade Sil alone and tip our hand. If, on the
other hand, you're moving now vs Germany with Bel and a new fleet, then
I'll mobilize and also join in. From the sound of it, though,England
wants its fleets for position (Nwy and Mao), vice a 1902 hit on Germany
-- so you're saying 1903 at the earliest is German hit time??? If
that's the case, I expect much pressure (and lying to Germany) over me
building ANYWHERE else but Sev and StP....
The ideal Faz builds are A Sev, A War. However, War sends the
immediate flag to Germany. Advice, please????
The French hit was pure silk. I had also urged Germany to coordinate
with Cal as regards a Bur-Mar move/hold sequence, and Jamie's ballsy
grab of Brest was pure joy! France will be completely dead in another
3-4 turns, max. You guys are awesome.
How about Austria, Cal? You're going to be building a fleet, I assume,
to keep up the westward movement??? And is Germany going to help you vs
Mar this turn? If that's the case, you're obviously going to be doing
1902 in the same "gain/move" mode as Jamie, meaning Edi is secure until
1903 at the earliest (and that translates into another 1-2 gains for
him).
In a way, I wish I wouldn't have burned all my bridges with Turkey.
Hitting Edi with Turkey still alive would only cause them to make an
alliance of convenience against me. But hitting Edi after Hohn dies
means he may beat me to the punch!!! Decisions, decisions.
** look for this note in near-entirety within a few minutes, addressed
to all of the QC.
Tsar Faz
Private message from England to Austria:
Good work.
Plans all proceeding according to schedule!
Expecting to see your armies all around Munich shortly. You may expect sea
support from the northern water shortly thereafter.
Am somewhat worried about what Cal will be doing at the time. We shall see.
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Russia:
Allies, Bon Vivants, Tricky Devils;
Good work. Glad Cal worked out that arrangement with Pitt, it means a
rapider death for Frenchie. Faz gets his two. I get my two and I have
crippled France (can't build a fleet).
I think I'd like to see how everyone builds; then, if I'm not mistaken,
it's time for me to make a serious decisions (will I come right out and
attack Germany in '02? or should I focus on picking up Norway and preparing
to take Portugal? Though we didn't discuss it in advance, I am assuming
that Cal agrees that Portugal is to be mine.)
Oh--I will build two fleets, obviously. I need one to take Norway, and I
need another (F Lvp) to make sure I get into MAO. Cal's build is obvious.
Faz, how will you play it?
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to France:
Sorry, mon ami. As you suspected, too much temptation, too much for me to
gain by completing the thrust.
Bonne guerre,
Your ever-so-Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Germany:
KaiserPitt,
Hm, yes, I guess I have to agree that John got what he deserved.
(And for taking a risk on a bold move, I deserve what I just got, too, right?)
Glad you worked out the Burg situation with Italy. Now this should be a
fairly trivial matter.
I do want to make sure I get Portugal, and of course I have to take certain
measures to make sure I get Norway now. But France, at least, no longer
offers me anything to worry about. (Can't even build a fleet!) After the
builds I think I'll be ready to decide where I plan to be going in '03,
after Portugal is a fait accompli.
Off hand, I'd say my A Bre is at your service for S'02 at least, probably
for all of '02. Several options, your call. Lots of time to think about it.
Cheers!
The Very most Gentle King Jamie
Adjustments
Private message from England to Russia:
Hey! No panicking allowed.
First: we do now have an understanding on Par and Por, so that's done with.
The last hitch turned out to have to do only with our respective
predictions of how the units would be arranged in a year or so. In case Faz
had visions of the two navies coming to blows in the Atlantic while the
Pitt-viper and Birsan creature licked their lips (each his own, I hope),
you may schedule pleasanter dreams for the future.
As to the timing of the attack on Austria, that is obviously entirely up to
you guys. I was merely speculating.
As to the timing of the attack on Germany, I believe that Cal and I each
would like to get France a little deeper into oblivion first. The point is
that although we can now sink France without any German help, we might have
serious trouble if Germany actively aided the French. Now, as soon as I see
those Austrian armies actually attack Munich (even surround in hostilely
with no obvious excuse for Edi to use, like, 'Tyrol and Boh make a really
good corridor for streaming my armies into the Warsaw Ghetto'), then fine,
I will personally be dripping with confidence about the final solution to
our French problems, and I'm game for throwing whatever weight I have at
the Helgoland Bight (or wherever).
Here's what's behind my guess at '05 for the Austria attack. Cal has
explained that he wants to have seven centers before he looks east. That
means he won't go until he owns Mar and Spa and one other. I don't think
he's likely to have all three by the end of 1903. Maybe he will, I
certainly hope so, but I wouldn't count on it. See below, where I explain
an entirely plausible scenario in which Italy gains nothing at all in 1902.
(Well, nothing except a headache.)
On Germany: He hasn't written to me since the results of the move.
I doubt that he will be inclined to use up that A Bur's move supporting Cal
to Mar. I've explained why. You could try asking him to move Bur-Gal,
Mun-Bur; I would be glad to do Bre S Bur-Gal. The idea would be then for me
to support Bur-Par, while Pitt did Gal-Spa to cut support and Cal orders
GoL S Pie-Mar. But I suspect that the German army that moved Mun-Bur would
probably be suddenly and unexpectedly called back to duty at home, if you
see what I mean. So I can see the end of '02 with Italian units in great
positions but sitting in no new supply centers. (But, with me in MAO and
France down to garrisoning Por, Spa, Mar, Italy ought to have no trouble
snatching two in '03 anyway. It's that last one, Italy's seventh center,
that looks like it will have to wait until 1904.)
Now I'm a-thinkin', Edi saw this situation coming. He wants Cal to be
sweating over France for a while to come, because he doesn't want to have
his own Austrian hands full of Turkey and Germany when Italy suddenly has
finished his first project. That's what I think. I figure that's why Edi
wants me to give only very limited help against France from now on, so that
Cal is bogged down and busy.
And about my etch-a-sketch. Laugh all you want, but I have the world's
greatest Diplomacy mapping and plotting program, and you can't use it even
at 200 megaherz! Unix guys are no doubt ecstatic over a really cool data
structure file containing the names and neighbors and occupation and
ownership of every damn region on the board, and all the neat manipulations
they can do with those files. I'm very pleased for you! You just print it
out and pore over the data, while I point and click my way through 1905 in
six colors....
You may return to your pizza and beer now. I'll buy you a nice lager in
Kiel, Faz, a round for the Kronstadt Sailors, on your cousin....
Cheers!
Jamie MacIntosh, King of Scots
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to Italy and England in
> 'ghodstoo':
>
> Gentle KJ and Noble Roman,
> If we're talking about slinging some brewskis while writing depressing =
> messages, then you must want me to tip over a keg and start an IV =
> tube...1905 as the year to attack Austria?!!!!! Let's see, Edi's at 5 =
> now, will be at 7 by 1903, and by 1905, hmmm...
Can I join you on that keg? :)
As I said in my last message, 1905 seems an awfully long time to have to
live next to Edi. Don't know if we've made this clear to you, Jamie,
but both Mark and I know Edi well enough to be scared spitless of his
Diplomacy skill. If we seem uneasy about our ability to take him down
even in a two on one fight, well, that's why.
> Nah, forget it. I'm *not* going to get in a downer mode. If you both =
> agree that '05's the year to go for him, then I say okie-dokie and will =
> close ranks. Now, does this mean we all hit Germany (as envisioned by =
> the QC) at the same time, or before the Edi hit? (Not to say that I'm =
> thick-headed, but I am...thick-headed, that is.) When exactly is the =
> time to jump Pitt, then? Are you guys keeping him on the leash for =
> awhile to help, or, as you mentioned a couple notes back, we can hit him =
> "now"(?) because he's of no help to the advance any more? My head =
> thickens as I try to think through this. I guess I'm just worried =
> that A/I will have the lion's share of fighting thru A and T/G =
> remnants...
I think the idea here is to let Pitt get overextended into France so as
to make it easier to hit him and then use EXACTLY the same idea on Edi
when he moves on Germany. Is this about right? Or have I
misunderstood? I don't want to say exactly what year or turn this will
happen because in each case it will be a subjective call. For that
matter, the German attack timing probably depends on Edi to a large
extent.
> Heck, we may all realize that it's impossible to hit Edi after '04 or =
> so, and just go along for this thing under his "benevolent visage" (ha)! =
> There's a lot on our plates to digest, and we're only at the soup =
> course right now. =20
Waiter! Waiter! There's a, oh, forget it... :)
> I for one and ready and willing to get this thing on a roll, it being a =
> demo game and such. I have yet to hear from Pitt, which might be =
> reassuring -- no need to invent The Big Lie regarding a build when he =
> hasn't yet replied! Has he contacted any of you yet as far as his =
> intentions and/or views?
Nope. And I want to hear about my request for support into Marseilles.
I suspect his computer may be acting up again. That's the excuse he
gave me for being late to respond last turn.
> Here's to the QC and the Subset. Now, if you'll excuse me, there's some =
> more beer I need to quaff as I go for that second helping of pizza....
Lasagna for me. Grazie
Bon apetit!
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as England to Italy and Russia in
> 'ghodstoo':
>
> Holy Tamale, Faz. How many beers did you drink with that pizza?
Never enough... grin (hic)
> Have no fear, we will work out Portugal.
I think we have pretty much ironed this out already. If it seems that
Por is the only way I can get a quick build, then Jamie has agreed that
I can have it on the condition that I trade it for Paris as soon as
feasible. That about right Jamie?
> I've just thought through a couple of possible lines. It seems to me that
> the year to attack Austria will be 1905. Maybe I'll type up at least one of
> these lines to show you.
Ouch. That seems AWFULLY far away. I hate to give Edi THAT much time
to maneuver/diplome... There's only so long I want to live knowing
there's a skunk under the porch... :)
> Say, does either of you use a Mac? I could send you MacDip (a.k.a.
> Realpolitik), great program for keeping track of games and playing through
> various lines.
Q: What's the difference between a Mac and an Etch-A-Sketch?
A: You don't have to shake the Mac to clear the screen.
Other than that, not much...
Cal
Graduate of Smart Ass U
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to Italy in 'ghodstoo':
> As for the "long-term" options (ah, to even CONSIDER being in the final =
> lap of this race!!!)...
>
> I'd prefer a 17-17, because it has great tension al its own. However, =
> the ol' Option 3 you suggested -- no attacks on each other, but merely a =
> "Great Race," also sounds kind of neat. I definitely would prefer no =
> stabs, because--as experience has shown in the DW Demo Game currently =
> ongoing (and another one I'm in), my stab timing is awful and =
> counterproductive. best if we stay friends to the end, in whatever =
> permutation, ok?
Well, I have more confidence in my ability to stab (heh, heh experience
IS a good teacher...), but I agree that I'd rather not do it in this
game (well, not to YOU that is...). A 17-17 would be quite a nice
result and with a certain tension, but a race to 18 is fun too. We'll
see. At least we're agreed on the idea that our "QC Subset of TWO" is a
permanent fixture. We'll work from that.
> First and foremost, though, is the destruction of the west and east =
> targets, and the keying on Edi. I really, really, fear him at 7, Cal. =
I agree. I had the opportunity (misfortune?) to play against Edi in a
one on one face-to-face game of Escalation and was very impressed with
his grasp of the board. But then we saw that when he suggested this
whole "grand scheme"...
> Keep writing, mon ami; I enjoy your stuff!
Much obliged. Especially since all this press is being preserved and is
on record for all time... yawn. heh heh.
Regards
Cal
Private message from Russia to England:
Gentle KJ and Noble Roman,
If we're talking about slinging some brewskis while writing depressing =
messages, then you must want me to tip over a keg and start an IV =
tube...1905 as the year to attack Austria?!!!!! Let's see, Edi's at 5 =
now, will be at 7 by 1903, and by 1905, hmmm...
Nah, forget it. I'm *not* going to get in a downer mode. If you both =
agree that '05's the year to go for him, then I say okie-dokie and will =
close ranks. Now, does this mean we all hit Germany (as envisioned by =
the QC) at the same time, or before the Edi hit? (Not to say that I'm =
thick-headed, but I am...thick-headed, that is.) When exactly is the =
time to jump Pitt, then? Are you guys keeping him on the leash for =
awhile to help, or, as you mentioned a couple notes back, we can hit him =
"now"(?) because he's of no help to the advance any more? My head =
thickens as I try to think through this. I guess I'm just worried =
that A/I will have the lion's share of fighting thru A and T/G =
remnants...
Heck, we may all realize that it's impossible to hit Edi after '04 or =
so, and just go along for this thing under his "benevolent visage" (ha)! =
There's a lot on our plates to digest, and we're only at the soup =
course right now. =20
I for one and ready and willing to get this thing on a roll, it being a =
demo game and such. I have yet to hear from Pitt, which might be =
reassuring -- no need to invent The Big Lie regarding a build when he =
hasn't yet replied! Has he contacted any of you yet as far as his =
intentions and/or views?
Here's to the QC and the Subset. Now, if you'll excuse me, there's some =
more beer I need to quaff as I go for that second helping of pizza....
Tsar Faz
Private message from England to Italy:
Cool.
See you in, uh, Cadiz, or Madeira or something.
G. King J.
Private message from England to Russia:
Holy Tamale, Faz. How many beers did you drink with that pizza?
Have no fear, we will work out Portugal.
I've just thought through a couple of possible lines. It seems to me that
the year to attack Austria will be 1905. Maybe I'll type up at least one of
these lines to show you.
Say, does either of you use a Mac? I could send you MacDip (a.k.a.
Realpolitik), great program for keeping track of games and playing through
various lines.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Russia to Italy:
Hi Cal
Thanks for the flurry of recent mail; I'm only now cranking up the =
keyboard...
I agree that there is nothing (yet) which will necessitate us deviating =
from the QC, or "QC of 3" scenarios we've planned. The idea of a =
crippled Pitt helping us vs a strong England is only a viable option if =
he's not pissed at a Russian stabber, to boot (and egged on by Edi)! Of =
course, we can game out every conceivable psycho option, but it does no =
good. We'll just take it a move at a time, I guess....I wil indeed be =
your "friend in court" for the idea of further builds and the Iberia =
corner, however.
As for the "long-term" options (ah, to even CONSIDER being in the final =
lap of this race!!!)...
I'd prefer a 17-17, because it has great tension al its own. However, =
the ol' Option 3 you suggested -- no attacks on each other, but merely a =
"Great Race," also sounds kind of neat. I definitely would prefer no =
stabs, because--as experience has shown in the DW Demo Game currently =
ongoing (and another one I'm in), my stab timing is awful and =
counterproductive. best if we stay friends to the end, in whatever =
permutation, ok?
First and foremost, though, is the destruction of the west and east =
targets, and the keying on Edi. I really, really, fear him at 7, Cal. =
You won't have enough to get into a good position, and me hitting him =
with a still-living Hohn is like asking the one-armed man to beat up The =
Fugitive in a fair fight....well, let's burn that bridge when we come to =
it...
Keep writing, mon ami; I enjoy your stuff!
Tsar Faz
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as England to Italy in 'ghodstoo':
> Here's what I'll do. I agree that you should get Mar plus Spa plus one more
> before you have to attack Austria, and I will try to get you that one more
> as fast as I can.
> We just don't agree on how the tactics are going to work out, I think. Maybe
> I'm wrong. Let's just wait and see.
>
> > Once I get my first
> >Austrian centre, you get Por. Make sense? :)
>
> How about my proposal above?
>
> I agree to get you that Seventh Unit asap. If I can get you Paris as fast as
> you could hope to get Por, then you'll take Par.
>
> Ok?
Sounds good. We're pretty much agreed in concept but differ on possible
specifics. As far as my fleet in Western Med, I didn't mean I was going
there immediately, I meant that the fleet I'm about to build would be
there in two turns. I see that we may want to establish your fleet in
the Mid before that, so I withdraw my objection to your fleet in Lpl.
Ciao!
Cal
Private message from England to Italy:
1. About my F Lvp:
I'm surprised that you are joining the others in urging me not to build F Lvp.
I don't see your point about your F Wes helping me into the MAO. I would
have expected that fleet to be in GoL, attacking Marseilles. Are you not
going to bother taking Marseilles? The attack on France goes faster, and on
Germany slower, if I build in Lvp. I thought that's what you wanted. You
want me to build in Lon and Edi and attack Germany right away, this turn?
That's what Edi and Faz want. I thought you and I agreed that we prefer to
finish France.
2. About Por
>My thinking is that I will have an easier time in gaining Portugal in
>the next two or three turns than I would with Paris.
Ah. That may be. Though you will, presumably, have an A Mar.
> I DO agree that
>Portugal is yours for the long term because of the stalemate line.
>However, for me to attack Edi effectively, I see a real need to have
>three units in Italy.
Yes, we both agree on that. I mean, on those.
> For that, I obviously need three centres and Mar,
>Spa and Por seem the easiest/quickest to get.
Let's see how it looks after the Spring moves, shall we?
Here's what I'll do. I agree that you should get Mar plus Spa plus one more
before you have to attack Austria, and I will try to get you that one more
as fast as I can.
We just don't agree on how the tactics are going to work out, I think. Maybe
I'm wrong. Let's just wait and see.
> Once I get my first
>Austrian centre, you get Por. Make sense? :)
How about my proposal above?
I agree to get you that Seventh Unit asap. If I can get you Paris as fast as
you could hope to get Por, then you'll take Par.
Ok?
Gentle King Jamie
>Broadcast message from [email protected] as Observer in 'ghodstoo':
>England:
>
>The openings resource calls this a Wales opening, and says it's
>anti-French. (Duh!) Combined with France's open, I'd guess England
>stabbed France at the first possible chance.
Good lord! There must be a leak in our intelligence operation! How on earth
did this observer manage to discover the entire core and basis of our
operations???? SOMEONE WILL PAY FOR THIS.
Gentle King Jamie
(I just pray that the French aren't listening today, that's all; the
commentary is sure to sour my relations with them if it should reach their
ears. Please, nobody tell, ok?)
I would appreciate comments from everyone after the builds are announced
on the current state of the game from their point of view. Just do
"press to m" and I'll be the only one who will see it. These will
be archived with the other press from the game. I think it's fair
to say the first year has been.... "interesting" for everyone and has
more than met my expectations so far as a demo game. You may also
want to save your copy of that press and it will help you write your
endgame statements.
Thanks!
Jim
PS In particular, continuing updates on contact outside of E-Mail
channels is especially appreciated.
To add one more thing,
Dave Kleiman (also esteemed) said:
>...if you do a LIST for the game (list ghodstoo), the judge
>will tell why the moves haven't processed.
>
...
>
>1) Someone doesn't have their orders in (One of more players have not
>gotten their orders in)
>2) Someone has done a SET WAIT (One or more players have requested that
>orders not be processed until the deadline)
Game 'ghodstoo' order #003 (F1901B) has a deadline of Mon Feb 17 1997 23:02:14
One or more players have not gotten their orders in.
One or more players have requested that orders not be processed until the
deadline.
I would just add that there is a deceptive part of the judge listing which
people often get confused on. What Dave just said is 100% correct, and
before a deadline arrives, it is the only way to tell if the game is
waiting for orders, a set no wait, or is about to process.
The following players are signed up for game 'ghodstoo':
Master [email protected]
Turkey move 3/4 252 [email protected]
England move 3/5 9 [email protected]
Russia move 4/6 6 [email protected]
Italy move 3/4 6 [email protected]
Germany move 3/5 616 [email protected]
Observer 1675 [email protected]
France move 3/4 84 [email protected]
Austria move 3/5 6 [email protected]
Obviously, we know from above that one or more players have not gotten
their orders in, so MOVE listed by each player doe snot mean they have all
entered their moves. Rather (and note the contrast with Dave, the
observer) it mans they are suppose to submit moves for this phase (whether
thay have done so yet or not).
On a retreat, there will only be MOVE listed next to those due to retreat.
AFTER the deadline, passes, however, those who have incomplete orders (at
least one NMR) will be listed as LATE rather than MOVE, and those with
complete orders and a spurious error flag will be listed as PART (but
treated like late, for the most part). People with complete and clean
orders will still be listed as MOVE, but now this will be an indication
that their moves are in.
Andy
p.s. The Late/Part distinction above may not be 100% accurate. If others
can confirm/correct this part, I'd appreciate it
The other piece of information about the set wait/procssing of moves etc.
question is that if you do a LIST for the game (list ghodstoo), the judge
will tell why the moves haven't processed.
In the current example for this game, the moves haven't processed for two
reasons:
1) Someone doesn't have their orders in (One of more players have not
gotten their orders in)
2) Someone has done a SET WAIT (One or more players have requested that
orders not be processed until the deadline)
Dave
At 11:48 AM 2/15/97 -0500, USIN Diplomacy Judge wrote:
> News about USIN can be found at
> http://kleiman.indianapolis.in.us/usin.htm
>
> All unmoderated games will be removed.
> Judge keeper is [email protected].
> Judge address is [email protected]
>
>:: Judge: USIN Game: Ghodstoo Variant: Standard
>:: Deadline: F1901B Mon Feb 17 1997 23:02:14 EST Boardman: 1997KT
>
>Game 'ghodstoo' order #003 (F1901B) has a deadline of Mon Feb 17 1997
23:02:14 EST.
>One or more players have not gotten their orders in.
>One or more players have requested that orders not be processed
>until the deadline.
>Those who haven't gotten their orders in will be abandoned if nothing
>is received by Mon Mar 31 1997 14:02:14 EST.
>
Much obliged. d:})
Cal
> Broadcast message from [email protected] as Observer in 'ghodstoo':
>
> The esteemed Cal asked:
>
> >In the one previous e-mail game I played, the Judge would adjudicate and
> >send out results once everyone had sent in orders/builds regardless of
> >how much time remained until deadline (unless someone sent in a SET WAIT
> >command).
> >
> >Does this happen in this game? Or will we wait until the deadline every
> >time?
>
> What you experienced before is the general rule: the judge will always
> process is all orders are in, without errors or error flags (see below), no
> one has set wait, and the MINinum time before processing orders has passed
> (see also below). In this game,
>
> So, to reanswer Cal's question more concisely:
>
> For moves, the game will process as soon as:
>
> Error-free orders from all players are submitted, no one has set wait, and
> at least 12 hours from the last phase has passed.
>
> For retreats/builds, the game will process as soon as:
>
> Error-free orders from all players are submitted and no one has set wait.
>
> Now for the explantions:
>
> Error Flags are caused by 2 things, real errors and fake errors. Real
> errors are generally easy to spot. You might be England and submit Army
> Liv - Wales, and the judge will complain it does not know what Liv is.
> You'l see Army Liverpool, no order received, and you'll resubmit, Army Lpl
> - Wales, realizing that while humans know Livonia from liverpool, and
> almost nver find it ambiguous, the silly judge does not. (However, two
> convoys from Kiel conceivably could be arranged and the question would be,
> which Liv was meant by A Kiel-Liv?)
>
> However, error flags are also caused by fake errors. Say you have ordered
> all your units, but later you send try to send press, but you forget to say
>
> Press to F,
>
> so instead it looks like
>
> --> signon eghodstoo password
> --> Yo, Frenchie, how's that for some hot convoying
> --> endpress
> --> signoff
>
> B/c no PRESS TO F was mentioned, the judge thinks these are attempts at
> orders, says it cannot find a province called Yo, or one called endpress,
> so it gags and sticks an error flag on you. However, it LOOKS like all
> your orders are in, and they are, but you are marked as if a move were
> required b/c of the error flag.
>
> This flag is designed to prevent you from goofing up if you already have
> orders in and you try to change them but mistype. Rather than just reject
> your botched changes, the judge assumes you would prefer the game to wait
> until you resubmit the orders correctly. So, if after submitting A
> Lpl-Wales, you decide you'd prefer a Yorkshire move, but forgetfully revert
> to A Liv - Yor, you would still have the Lpl-Wal order on file, but the
> error flag would prevent the game from processing until you either clear it
> or fix the order.
>
> An error flag is easy to clear. Sign on and signoff (without new error)
> and all stray error flags are erased. However, this method will not change
> the Lpl-Wal to Lpl-Yor, so be vigilant. Behind every error flag is a real
> error, trvial or not, and while clearing the flag is easy, you may want to
> FIX the error if it had a non-trivial root cause.
>
> Worse still, people often miss the error flag, and seeing that all orders
> are submitted, they ignore the dire warning at the bottom of their press
> saying they have not submitted orders (after all, they HAVE and they are
> listed right there!). When orders are properly in, you get no warning at
> the bottom saying when you'll be late, so if you think your orders are in,
> but the judge is still telling you at the bottom of press that you'll be
> marked late if orders are not received by a certain date, well, you have an
> error flag that needs fixing. And you will be marked late and docked a
> dedication point a day for 999 hours, and the ejected from the game
> thereafter unless you clear the error.
>
> Sorry for being so long winded, but with such an experience Diplomacy
> crowd, it'd be a shame for judge interfce issues to cloud a great game.
>
> As for MIN, this game is set:
>
> Move min 12.00
> Retreat min 0.00
> Adjust min 0.00
>
> This means that even if everyone submits Spring move orders immediately
> after the winter builds process (or fall moves after spring moves and any
> needed retreats), the game will wait 12 hours from the last results before
> it processes spring. However, retreats and builds WILL be processed
> immediately, once all orders are in (w/o errors) and no set waits are set.
>
> So, to recap:
>
> For moves, the game will process as soon as
>
> Error-free orders from all players are submitted, no one has set wait, and
> at leats 12 hours from the last phase has passed.
>
> For retreats/builds, the game will process as soon as
>
> Error-free orders from all players are submitted and no one has set wait.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Andy
Ah, but Andy didn't directly answer Cal's question. (Okay, it's implied
more than once, but...)
If Cal wants the MAXimum amount of time to pass between moves, he needs to
add the SET WAIT command to his list of orders when he sends those in to
the judge.
[Andy may not have mentioned this on purpose, as many players and masters
prefer to have games move along as quickly as possible.]
>>Wes
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to Italy in 'ghodstoo':
> This is as good a time to talk as any, and I'm glad you brought this up. =
> I fear, in this order, the following:
> 1) Edi growing too fat upon Hohn's death;
> 2) Edi and Hohn (as puppet) teaming up when we hit him (IF we hit him) =
> anytime "soon" (due to lack of good Italian builds)
> 3) England growing at the expense of us all.
I think that, for the LONG term, I'd put these in reverse order,
although that may just be a matter of board perspective. The order you
have here is certainly correct for the next two or three years.
> I deliberately mentioned the idea of you getting POR for the same =
> reasons you have cited in this recent note. I, of course, use the handy =
> lightning rod (Edi) as the excuse for you gaining. There's truth to =
> that, but the penultimate reason is that I don't want England getting =
> too strong in the outyears and sealing off the Med/Mid.
>
> In fact, Cal, my big fear is that you and England get into a sparring =
> match when the rapid demise of France makes you guys hot together, and =
> we lose the anti-Edi part. In other words, let's say you guys are in =
> Iberia and you now have to turn east to face Edi. What's to stop Jamie =
> from heading east, behind your forces that have turned 180* to face Aus?
That exactly why I thought we should have this conversation now before
this sneaks up on us. I've known from the start of the game that my
biggest problem would be trying to do the 180 while involved with
France. That leaves me open to an aggresive England.
> The SCARY part of that is:
> 1) You may feel that you can't/won't strike Edi because of such a =
> threat, and I end up with an A/I.
The only way to avoid this is for you to make it very clear to him that,
if he tries anything against me, you will have no choice but to move on
him in the north. It needn't be a full scale operation (which neither
of us could mount and still attack Edi), but if we both harass him in a
two front war, he'll have some problems. Of course this means that all
three of us would be in two-front wars: him against us and us against
him and Edi. Ugh, that sends shivers down my back. Edi would be in his
glory!
> 2) Eng gets ahead of us in centers and ends up playing us off against =
> Edi, growing as he does.
This may well happen. See above.
> There are a few ways to address the issue:
> 1) Immediate strike on Edi now and CESSATION OF HOSTILITIES vs France.
> My guess is that John will be most grateful for one less front, and, =
> relieved of a southern threat, can face Eng and Ger. This angers Eng and =
> maybe Ger, but buffers the West while we settle with Edi now.
Unfortunately, this would also have the effect of throwing Hohn and Edi
together. I'm not thrilled about that idea, to say the least.
> 2) Status quo, and we just "monitor the situation." This does nothing =
> to allay the long-term problem, though.
I think this is our most reasonable course of action. I think we're
pretty much aware of what is going on board-wide. Things aren't so much
out of control that we have to try anything radical. Yet.
> 3) We get Germany involved vs Eng...perhaps a hit on Bel, or a strike =
> toward Nth Sea. Pitt will doubtless be relieved if he sees a lessened =
> E/I threat, and he can fight Jamie while you either mop up on France, or =
> leave him alone.
> If that was done, I could always sail for Nwy and work with Pitt.
>
> Option 3 is extreme; I don't even like to think of the QC dissolving =
> before ANY initial enemy is gone. But I'm at a loss on how to deny =
> England centers when he'll be stronger than either of us by 1903, AND in =
> the better tactical position.
We might try a variation of this in a year or two. Once Pitt has been
hit and is crippled, if we find that England is growing too large for us
to handle, we can always offer to pull back on Germany and give him some
time to face England down. By this time, we'll have hit Austria, so he
won't have any say in the situation as he'll be too busy defending
against you and I. As long as Pitt is amenable and doesn't decide then
and there to throw in with England (! Horrors!) we'll be okay.
> Your thoughts on all this? (I have supper waiting, so I'll return to =
> this theme in a later note, ok?)
Bon apetit! I think I've covered all the bases here. We don't have any
problems that we don't have at least a possible response to, so let's
just keep things going as planned for now. Wot sayest thee?
By the way, we should also talk about the very end game as well. I'd
say we have three options:
1) Play for a two way
2) Expect to attack each other and go for a solo win
3) NOT attack each other, but play for the "race to 18".
I'm open to any of these, but I don't want to do #2. If we go for #1,
then I'd like it to be a 17-17. If it wasn't a demo game, I'd never
agree to this, but since it is, a 17-17 result has a certain panache.
#3 would be fun and we could maintain the alliance and game-friendship
with a "let the better man win!" attitude. That's usually quite fun.
Comments?
Cal
The esteemed Cal asked:
>In the one previous e-mail game I played, the Judge would adjudicate and
>send out results once everyone had sent in orders/builds regardless of
>how much time remained until deadline (unless someone sent in a SET WAIT
>command).
>
>Does this happen in this game? Or will we wait until the deadline every
>time?
What you experienced before is the general rule: the judge will always
process is all orders are in, without errors or error flags (see below), no
one has set wait, and the MINinum time before processing orders has passed
(see also below). In this game,
So, to reanswer Cal's question more concisely:
For moves, the game will process as soon as:
Error-free orders from all players are submitted, no one has set wait, and
at least 12 hours from the last phase has passed.
For retreats/builds, the game will process as soon as:
Error-free orders from all players are submitted and no one has set wait.
Now for the explantions:
Error Flags are caused by 2 things, real errors and fake errors. Real
errors are generally easy to spot. You might be England and submit Army
Liv - Wales, and the judge will complain it does not know what Liv is.
You'l see Army Liverpool, no order received, and you'll resubmit, Army Lpl
- Wales, realizing that while humans know Livonia from liverpool, and
almost nver find it ambiguous, the silly judge does not. (However, two
convoys from Kiel conceivably could be arranged and the question would be,
which Liv was meant by A Kiel-Liv?)
However, error flags are also caused by fake errors. Say you have ordered
all your units, but later you send try to send press, but you forget to say
Press to F,
so instead it looks like
--> signon eghodstoo password
--> Yo, Frenchie, how's that for some hot convoying
--> endpress
--> signoff
B/c no PRESS TO F was mentioned, the judge thinks these are attempts at
orders, says it cannot find a province called Yo, or one called endpress,
so it gags and sticks an error flag on you. However, it LOOKS like all
your orders are in, and they are, but you are marked as if a move were
required b/c of the error flag.
This flag is designed to prevent you from goofing up if you already have
orders in and you try to change them but mistype. Rather than just reject
your botched changes, the judge assumes you would prefer the game to wait
until you resubmit the orders correctly. So, if after submitting A
Lpl-Wales, you decide you'd prefer a Yorkshire move, but forgetfully revert
to A Liv - Yor, you would still have the Lpl-Wal order on file, but the
error flag would prevent the game from processing until you either clear it
or fix the order.
An error flag is easy to clear. Sign on and signoff (without new error)
and all stray error flags are erased. However, this method will not change
the Lpl-Wal to Lpl-Yor, so be vigilant. Behind every error flag is a real
error, trvial or not, and while clearing the flag is easy, you may want to
FIX the error if it had a non-trivial root cause.
Worse still, people often miss the error flag, and seeing that all orders
are submitted, they ignore the dire warning at the bottom of their press
saying they have not submitted orders (after all, they HAVE and they are
listed right there!). When orders are properly in, you get no warning at
the bottom saying when you'll be late, so if you think your orders are in,
but the judge is still telling you at the bottom of press that you'll be
marked late if orders are not received by a certain date, well, you have an
error flag that needs fixing. And you will be marked late and docked a
dedication point a day for 999 hours, and the ejected from the game
thereafter unless you clear the error.
Sorry for being so long winded, but with such an experience Diplomacy
crowd, it'd be a shame for judge interfce issues to cloud a great game.
As for MIN, this game is set:
Move min 12.00
Retreat min 0.00
Adjust min 0.00
This means that even if everyone submits Spring move orders immediately
after the winter builds process (or fall moves after spring moves and any
needed retreats), the game will wait 12 hours from the last results before
it processes spring. However, retreats and builds WILL be processed
immediately, once all orders are in (w/o errors) and no set waits are set.
So, to recap:
For moves, the game will process as soon as
Error-free orders from all players are submitted, no one has set wait, and
at leats 12 hours from the last phase has passed.
For retreats/builds, the game will process as soon as
Error-free orders from all players are submitted and no one has set wait.
Hope that helps,
Andy
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as England to Italy in 'ghodstoo':
>
> Geez, now *I'm* having a hard time keeping up with all the mail.
[Much of my obviously badly-written arguments in favour of my having
Portugal for the first little while snipped]
> > I just think I have more need for it sooner than you do.
>
> I agree, have agreed, that you have a greater need for more centers sooner
> than I have.
> To be clear: the reason you do is that you will have a lot of trouble
> shifting your forces to attack Austria, whereas my forces will move more
> easily to an anti-German position.
>
> The only contentious issue is whether Portugal in particular is a center
> you need soon. In principle I'm prepared for you to have it for a couple of
> years and take it later. In practice I would like to see the kind of
> scenario you have in mind.
My thinking is that I will have an easier time in gaining Portugal in
the next two or three turns than I would with Paris. I DO agree that
Portugal is yours for the long term because of the stalemate line.
However, for me to attack Edi effectively, I see a real need to have
three units in Italy. For that, I obviously need three centres and Mar,
Spa and Por seem the easiest/quickest to get. Once I get my first
Austrian centre, you get Por. Make sense? :)
Comments?
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as England to Italy, Russia and Austria in
> 'ghodstoo':
> (Cal)
> >Are you sure that fleet Edi wouldn't be a better move if you're about to
> >attack
> >Germany? Just a thought.
>
> I think F Lvp, because I intend to move against both France and Germany,
> and I need two fleets against each. Your (currently existing) fleet will
> not be able to help me into MAO, I'm sure. France's fleet will keep me out
> of MAO unless I add another fleet on my west side.
> >I take it that the Italians will build Fleet Naples, the english two fleets
> >Edi(my favorite) and London
>
> See above response to Cal. I expect to build F Lvp.
>
> Maybe I'm miscalculating. Convince me.
I'm not sure why you don't think my fleet in Western Med can't help you
take the Med. The way I see it, once you're there, taking France down
in Iberia will be much easier/faster. I don't mind sacrificing one turn
supporting you in the Mid when all I would otherwise be doing is banging
my head against Spain.
> >Germany is still in vulture mode but will have to be watched, expect Italy and
> >Russia to get strong German overtures as to what to do. One of the key things
> >to watch is if he willing to go for Gascony with Brest support as opposed to
> >supporting the Italians into Marselles. This combined with a build of a fleet
> >may mean that he is thinking to move against England by getting behind Brest
> >and pulling the Army Munich to border on Belgium with Holland hanging out.
I've asked him about support into Marseilles, but haven't heard back
from him. I won't say he isn't paying attention to the game, but he is
pretty slow in writing...
> If he wants that, I'll give it to him. The further strung out he is the
> better. I would not at all mind seeing Pitt set himself up to attack me,
> then find his home centers suddenly at the edge of the AustroRussian swords.
Ditto. :)
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as England to Italy and Russia in
> 'ghodstoo':
[Stuff about Por snipped as we discuss it elsewhere]
> More immediately:
> Cal, I certainly agree that if Germany and France were now to dig in and
> fight against you and me, it would be a long slow fight, though I suspect
> we have the upper hand (with just a little help from Russia). So I think we
> agree that at least another season should be devoted exclusively to
> anti-French activities, postponing the stabs of Germany and Austria for a
> little while longer. When you pick up one of Mar, Spa, and I add Nwy to my
> sack, then I'd be ready to go. And at that point Germany would, so the plan
> goes, have more pressing concerns than helping the French Friend.
I agree that attacking Germany this turn would be a bad idea as the
combination of F/G would slow us down WAY too much and would cause my
involvement against Austria to be too late to stop him from growing too
large to take down easily.
> I'm a little more sanguine about your combined chances against Austria than
> you guys seem to be. I am assuming you get a good stabbing move in, so by
> the time the board shapes up to be a clear I/R/E against everybody, we have
> 'em outweighed by maybe 20 to 14. Shouldn't that be a decisive advantage??
Yep, if it works out that way. Our position should be enough to carry
us to the win, but as we've been saying TIMING is crucial to that
position (or at least, the attainment thereof).
Regards, more mail to answer
Cal
Since I stubbornly refuse to learn how to read game "parameters", could
someone answer a question for me?
In the one previous e-mail game I played, the Judge would adjudicate and
send out results once everyone had sent in orders/builds regardless of
how much time remained until deadline (unless someone sent in a SET WAIT
command).
Does this happen in this game? Or will we wait until the deadline every
time?
BTW, this isn't a complaint. At least for now and the foreseeable
future, I would PREFER that the full deadline passes. Maybe after I
hit, oh, say 16 or 17 centres, I'll want to shorten deadlines, but for
now the full time diploming is appreciated. (tongue in cheek
sirrrahs...)
Cal
Everyone has the right to look stupid. I now exercise that right.
After the Spring moves I looked up the openings via the DipPouch.
I was going to write up my opinions, but I hesitated. Procrastination?
Yes, but something else, if Edi was going to throw the Gauntlet, I didn't
want to spoil the surprise.
So here are the opinions of someone who probably should remain anonymous,
and avoid the light of those that know better.
But first, a question. What did John do to invite a EGI alliance against
him? If I had expected a "let's get so-and-so" it would have been against
our current World Champ, Kaiser Pitt. But then again, that just could be
my ignorance showing. This touches upon the concept of newer players
being ignorant of the history of the hobby.
Enough tangential ramblings.
Austria:
A standard looking Balkan Gambit. BUT, Dip A to Z mentions that Edi
Birsan has a variation called the Ionian Gambit. The same Edi that is
playing Austria in this game. Hmm. This made procrastinating very easy.
If Italy and Austria are going with a Lepanto it'll look like a Christmas
board.
England:
The openings resource calls this a Wales opening, and says it's
anti-French. (Duh!) Combined with France's open, I'd guess England
stabbed France at the first possible chance.
France:
Call this either the Maginot Opening, or a German Defense. Regardless,
it would have worked better if England hadn't moved aggressively against
the Gaul. Italy's army in Piedmont didn't help his cause either. It'll
take some world class diploming for France to avoid being a minor power,
struggling to avoid elimination.
Germany:
Whether the Kaiser has set up an EG, an RG, or an EGR, Germany will have
trouble advancing on French territories. But the openings library
mentions that this type of open is fairly pro-Austrian, and England and Russia
should look over their shoulders.
Italy:
This opening is called the Western Lepanto. And while it may not have
started out as looking anti-Turkey, combine this with a fleet in Naples, and
Austria moving from ION - AEG (or EAS,) and the sick man of Europe will
have even greater worries. Meanwhile the Tyrrhenian fleet is available
to harass France.
Russia:
The Tsar looks to have snookered the Turk. While the "Turkish Attack" can
be used as a feint to draw attention away from the threat of a Juggernaut,
the Fall moves seem to indicate that a steamroller is not in Europe's
future. Russia does have an interesting chance in Scandinavia with England's
preoccupation with France. I see a North Coast fleet in the future.
Turkey:
Turkey opened looking to the west, and now has to be looking at the best
ways to optimize his defense. If any player, other than perhaps
France, wants to see Italy and Austria draw sabers, it is Turkey.
And now, the public humiliation. I return you to your regularly scheduled
broadcast messages.
>>Wes
Private message from Russia to Germany:
Hi Pitt
Tried calling you at the number listed for you in one of the first =
"notification messages," but it was your work number. So let's try the =
e-mail route, and hope your system is up... Really would've rather =
talked to you, though, vice the e-mails...
What do you envision for (1) German cooperation with E/I versus France, =
and (2) build ideas for this year (perhaps in a cooperative mode with =
me)??
The two are exclusive, i.e., if you want to finish off Frenchie first, =
then just tell me and I'll build two for the south. If, however, you're =
playing balance-of-power and want to wreck E/I's day, I have a =
recommended set of builds/moves:
BUILDS: Germany (A Mun + F Kie) Russia (F StP[nc] + A War or =
Sev)
MOVES: Ger: Kie-Hel, Den-Nth, Bur-Bel (Hol S) and Mun-Bur?
Rus: StP(nc)-Nwy, Swe-Ska (or Swe-Nwy and StP-Bar)
War-Gal (if I'm after Edi) or Sev-Arm (if I go with Edi vs Hohn)
If England builds as expected, he'll have F Lon for the 'east'. This =
move kills bel, bounces Nth, puts 3-4 fleets on the front immediately, =
and allows us both to go +1 by fall (you in Bel, me in Nwy).
This is an extreme idea, and one I wouldn't recommend unless I knew you =
were genuinely concerned over the E/I (are you?). But if there is =
interest in Berlin, this move effectively cuts Eng to 4 (doubtful he'll =
get a build this fall), and may even cause E/I to lose ground elsewhere =
(should France believe all this and make the right moves, for example).
Why would I rpopose this?
Well, I could use some centers, and Edi will get the lion's share (at =
least this year) down south--I could use a build or two.
Secondly, from a purely self-interested point of view, the closer you =
and I "prove" our respective worths to each other in such an overt =
cooperative measure, the more solidified e can assume out R/G friendship =
is....not to mention we eleminate the English threat to either of us for =
many years (if not forever). =20
I mean, who's willing or able to help England if we do this? =20
Again, this is just for your consideration if you're genuinely worries =
over the future E/I link-up. If you are willing to take your chances =
and help them in France (hopefully they'll give you Par??), then by all =
means, press on, and forget I even mentioned the above.
Would love to hear from you, old chap.
Tsar Faz
Hi, everyone,
Thanks to Andy for the update on how the Judge "announces" late
players and orders. I believe his understanding is correct and
I appreciate the time he took with it. This demo game and the
saved press is proving to be interesting for a wide variety of
purposes. Unlike other Demo games with experienced Judge players
it also is recording the "learning process" of how to work with
the Judge. Some problems have been made public and others have been kept
private but can be investigated when the game is finished by
interested parties. I, of course, have to be careful about
releasing private information until the game is completed so
I appreciate ESPECIALLY having expert novice advisors like Andy
hanging around.
Jim
PS That reminds me, if you do write private messages updating the
game to me, remember that what you've written is already there and
there is no need to recap it. Thus, you can write in shorthand
like, "What I said to X was just trolling for info, but I really mean
what I said to Y".
Private message from England to Russia:
Amici,
Struggling to find some way to hurry along Italy's growth, I've come up
with this thin straw. If Edi is obviously attacking Germany in the Spring,
there might be some chance for Cal to deal with Pitt: "I'd be happy to send
in the cavalry against Austria if only I could get Marseilles."
If Germany has an A Gas, then that one at least would be useless to him to
defend the homeland, and maybe he'd be willing to use it for Gas-Spa
(letting Italy capture Mar). But he'll probably suggest that I support him
to Paris instead. I'll be thinking about how I could plausibly refuse this
support. Hard to think of anything off hand, though. Well, maybe I can set
it up so that I can reasonably say, "If Pitt gets Par, then it still takes
more than another full year for Cal to get Por, Spa, Mar; but if Cal gets
Mar, then the other three would fall in one more year." Hm. I think that's
probably going to be true, too.
Cheers!
Gentle King J
p.s. Ok, Faz, I will cancel the Moral Support order, you ingrate.
Private message from England to Russia:
>The "feature you're not seeing" was the whole reason for my =
>not-so-subtle open letter to all of you asking that yes, indeed, we go =
>'per the plan.' It is directed against (who else) Edi, who has pushed =
>for both F STP(nc) and for delays vs Germany (other than not trusting =
>me(?) I can't think of a good reason to pass up Pitt's centers in =
>1902;can you)?
>
>In essence, it's a diplomatic way of telling Edi, "This is what YOU =
>recommended, and this is what WE all want, so 'crap or get off the =
>pot.'"
Yes, sir, I understood that.
I was just adding my 'Gosh, I don't get it, it's probably my fault I'm just
soooo slow' disingenuous blubbering. The subtext was nothing more than
"Russia's idea is obviously right, what on earth could anyone be thinking
who thought otherwise?"
>The only fear I have is the 7-center Edi, with Italy having "zero =
>builds" in 1902. We've already walked down that road, so I won't raise =
>the issue again, other than to say France won't fall fast enough to =
>allow Italy to join vs Edi for a coordinated two-front. So let me thank =
>you in advance for any fleet support you'll provide him to get him a =
>spare center or two for the east.
Roger.
As you know, I am not confident of being able to get much of anything for
Italy this year.
A short note on that to you and Cal to follow.
G. King J.
Private message from Russia to Italy:
Gosh! A Tun and F Eng morally support me! Here, let me go out and =
immediately crush everyne in my path right now. Where's my helen Reddy, =
"I am woman, here me roar" tape???
Thanks, seriously, for the moral support--it is indeed appreciated, =
although I can't help but think about Marshal Rommel in June 1942. (I =
do that a lot; must be a complex.) Told that he'd just been promoted to =
Field Marshal for capturing Tobruk, he replied, "I would have rather he =
(Hitler) had given me one more division." Moral of the story: Moral =
support is great--but get some builds coming to help me, too!
OK, whining aside, here's my reply to EnglandGram #2. =20
Edi is doubtless after England as his #1 alliance choice in the post-T/F =
world; makes eminent sense. He and I would be two oversized landpowers =
adjacent to each other, and that's uncool. He's following the Chinese =
proverb, "The distant enemy is preferred to the near enemy," or =
something equally Confucian...Italy is a grape waiting to be plucked, in =
his mind: 4 centers, nothing in '02 probably, and then boom! convoy to =
Nap, build in Tri (or A Tyo) to Venice, and Cal's on a limb and =
collapsing. =20
I have fought every proposal Edi has made that gives him more benefits =
than me (part self-interest, part theatrics, to make him 'feel' he's won =
the "negotiation victory"). We have to be careful we don't go =
overboard, because he'll read false praise/false promises as well as any =
of us would. Nonetheless, he's getting BUL and one in Turkey, not to =
mention MUN...and he's discussed KIE, to boot. So yes, keep him on =
board for another couple turns and feed him wondrous tales of Brave =
Ulysses, but after that, all bets are off. We'll need him to occupy =
Pitt, but that won't take long.
As long as we all comprendesz-vous, then we can keep the QC Subset =
united and focused. While I gnuinely fear an Edi-and-somone team =
against me (A/G, A/T remnants, etc), Italy is the logical Austrian =
target by 1904.
Tsar Faz
Private message from Russia to England:
Generalissimo:
The "feature you're not seeing" was the whole reason for my =
not-so-subtle open letter to all of you asking that yes, indeed, we go =
'per the plan.' It is directed against (who else) Edi, who has pushed =
for both F STP(nc) and for delays vs Germany (other than not trusting =
me(?) I can't think of a good reason to pass up Pitt's centers in =
1902;can you)?
In essence, it's a diplomatic way of telling Edi, "This is what YOU =
recommended, and this is what WE all want, so 'crap or get off the =
pot.'" Vintage Edi...makes ME the heavy vs Hohn, and now wants to do =
likewise regarding Pitt. =20
Anyway, thanks for your affirimative reply and like-mindedness. If Edi =
doesn't go there this turn, I'll be most dismayed (and probably stabbed, =
to boot)!=20
The 'good cop/bad cop" thing is not for cuteness' sake. If Edi does his =
thing in '02 with me, then you come rolling in a turn later and help =
(what can you really do vs Germany in S'02 anyway)? If Edi hits me, =
then all bets are off in the "Pitt attack," and a F02 attack by you is a =
nice way of pulling your own chestnuts out of the fire without tipping =
your hand in Spring. Of course, if you'd LIKE to somehow wicker Bel-Hol =
or some other token S'02 show of force, by all means come help!
If Edi sticks to his own plan, Turkey and France are goners, and =
Germany's head's in the noose starting next turn! You can't ask for =
better....
The only fear I have is the 7-center Edi, with Italy having "zero =
builds" in 1902. We've already walked down that road, so I won't raise =
the issue again, other than to say France won't fall fast enough to =
allow Italy to join vs Edi for a coordinated two-front. So let me thank =
you in advance for any fleet support you'll provide him to get him a =
spare center or two for the east.
Keep pressuring Edi!
Tsar Faz
Private message from England to Russia:
Amici,
Thanks for that inside squeeze, Tsar.
The real reason that Edi wants you to build a F Stp is as follows, I think.
One way or the other, he knows that our Quad will come apart in a couple of
years, once the primary victims are on the ropes. Then he will either be at
war with you or allied with you against me, and in either case he certainly
wants you to have two northern fleets. You'll make a useful ally to him or
an easier target if you have that unit unavailable for anti-Hapsburg
duties. There is no doubt in my mind but that all his 'advice' now is with
an eye to three or four seasons down the road (thus he wants me to give
Italy very little help against France, to keep the Western option nice and
soft for Austria too).
Edi is also dropping me little hints that he wants the Big Breakup to see
him and me still together (so touching--we hardly even know each other and
he's nearly proposing matrimony! ). I'm afraid the hints were so
cryptic I couldn't tell what he had in mind. But in any case I'm feeling
more urgent about getting a build for Italy asap.
Well, we do have to be careful. I think the main thing (now that the three
Subset Conspirators have more or less settled our minor disagreements) is
to keep Edi on board for as long as possible, and especially to prevent him
from locking arms with Pitt. My recent note to AIR was written with that in
mind.
We need about another year to be in a position where the three of us can
just fight everybody if necessary. So, a couple of things we can do to keep
Edi happy enough to follow through:
1. Soon he'll probably start feeling me out more explicitly, like "In two
seasons will you be ready to help me against Russia [or Italy, pick one]?"
And I will nod vigorously. That'll give him the confidence to continue
cooperatively for a little longer. Do you think this is right? Or should I
always knit my eyebrows (virtually speaking, of course) and express dismay
over the very idea of stabbing my beloved allies...? (Edi doesn't know me
from Adam, and I've tried to give him some reason to think that I'm one of
those crazy e-mail players motivated by unfathomable confusions never
encountered among sensible postal players. He just told me that people pay
too much attention to stalemate lines, so I quickly responded that I think
almost everybody pays much too *little* attention to stalemate lines.)
2. He should be promised an almost foolishly large share of spoils. Faz has
already agree to give up the larger share of Turkey. We should also be
prepared to agree that Austria would get another German center besides
Munich. Put stars in his eyes, keep him from seeing too clearly. Promises
that fall due over the horizon are cheap trinkets. Only let's not be too
obvious about it :)
3. I dunno. Any ideas?
I understand a certain Russian gloominess at this point. Faz, you are being
asked to open a second front before the others, and you have the Beast at
your threshold too.
Hang in there, the day will brighten. You have our moral support!
F Eng & A Tun morallyS F Swe.
There, now you are invincible.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Germany:
Dearest KaiserPitt,
Not much word from you recently.
I must inform you that shortly after the results of the second season's
movement, quite a lot of powers (everyone who spoke to me) urged me to
build two fleets on the North Sea. How strange, thought I. So obvious that
I will build F Lvp, or have I won my big gamble of a move against France
only to let him live through the midgame to have his revenge? No, I'll be
nailing down that coffin.
Well, I did manage to persuade *most* of them of the wisdom of my preferred
adjustment, but not all. A certain party continues to believe (or rather,
insist) that my meager resources are best spent on my east coast. I cannot
bring him around to seeing it my way. But as I understand the rules, *I*
get to give the actual order, so you will see an Irish Fleet tonight.
It would be embarassing for me if my critic should be able to point to a F
Kie and laugh at my naivete. But I'll think no more about that!
There's no doubt in my mind that some fiendish plan is brewing in Vienna,
and that the fiend has some eager cohort on a string, too. I don't know
just what's up. Keep your ear to the ground.
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Russia:
Dear Quads,
Is there some feature of the situation that I'm not seeing?
It is fairly obvious that Italy and I do not want Germany actively helping
the French. But aside from that possibility, there isn't much that the poor
men of Europe can do that will bother us rich quads. You know, four against
three, we have more guns than they have, etc.
I will play Good Cop/Bad Cop if you think that's to some advantage, but
really all we'll have to do is play the less subtle but equally amusing
game of Everybody Pile on Germany. So if Austria and Russia just go ahead
and take those two centers from Turkey, and Italy and I tighten the noose
around France (it looks like we might not actually deprive him of his
beloved centers this year, but we should have him ripe for killing by the
end of '02), as far as I can tell the only other business is to make sure
that Pitt doesn't get a surprise attack in against any of us. And the
original proposed moves, War-Sil, Vie-Boh, Tri-Tyl, look to prevent any
ugly German moves. I'll certainly prevent him from slipping in to the North
Sea.
I will simply get a fleet in position to support Italian attacks in '03.
That fleet plus my A Bre will be enough force. Italy is then left to mop
up, using those supports as he will, and my other four units get stuck into
Germany's back.
All of this seems to be nothing more than proceeding according to plan.
It's a good plan, shouldn't we just stick with it?
Ah, yes, there's yet another from Tsar Faz. Yes, that's how I see it too,
just about like that.
Cheers!
Gentlissimo King Jamie
Private message from Russia to England:
Hello again guys
On this, the last few hours prior to build submissions, I wanted to =
check out the QC Alliance and make sure we're all still in synch.
In the north, I'm pretty much determined to build A War and join in =
Edi's proposed S'02 attack (always per the plan) against Germany: =
Ukr-War, War-Sil, Swe-Bal, Vie-Boh and Tri-Tyo. No one is going to help =
the Hun, which means Mun and Ber should fall, even if it means I lose =
Swe in the process. Eng strikes for Nwy with one fleet under this plan =
(I also like F Lvp, Jamie.)
This part also sees me using A Rum S A Ser-Bul while trying for Arm. =
Then in fall, Edi uses Aeg and Bul to support my Rum-Con (via convoy). =
This clears the Balkans for DMZs and reduces Hohn to an impotent two.
You guys do whatever voodoo is necessary vs France, and perhaps have =
Jamie ready for a 1903 strike vs Germany...sort of like a delayed fuse =
munition.
Under this scenario, I build +1 (+Con, +Ber?, -Swe) or stay even. Jamie =
gets Nwy and whatever else. Edi goes +2 (Mun and Bul), Italy should get =
Mar(?), Germany goes -1 (or 2), losing Mun and maybe Ber. France, =
well...I don't ever see him recovering. =20
This also provides no incentive for a G/F linkup, because Pitt thinks =
it's "only" A/R attacking him, with the west "business as usual." =20
What say all of you? If I don't miss my guess, this is what the =
original plan was all along, and NOW we can put it to fruition. Edi, =
this commits you and I in S'02 to an attack (rather than any delays and =
hovering around until "later"), but I think it achieves the right punch =
at the right time. After all, each of our three foes (F, G and T) are =
reduced and/or isolated, and we have the forces necessary to cause them =
all some grief.
Your thoughts, ideas, or last-minute opt-outs? I really hope we stick =
with the plan. From a greedy-slob , self-serving point of view, it's =
the one that benefits Russia as well as ALL of us.
Tsar Faz
Private message from Russia to Master:
Hi Jim,
Here are my thoughts for the Winter 1901 turn.
Russia faces 1902 with some tough choices.=20
1) We can "stay with the plan" proposed by Edi and the other =
Quadripartitie Continuum folks (E and I). This would mean supporting =
Edi to Bul in spring while I try to force Arm with Sev and Bla. In =
fall, Edi's forces support my convoyed Rum-Con, and Hohn is down to an =
impotent two. In the north, I'd let Eng get Nwy while I sail swe-Bal =
and War-Sil. (Edi is supposed to move to Tyo and Boh this turn, to =
complete the circle of pain.)
2) I can play the rogue and try a variety of permutations, two =
"biggies" of which are:
a) Anti-Eng (build F StP(nc) and have Germany sail for Nth while I take =
Nwy and Bar).
b) Anti-Aus (support him to BUL with Bla, and move Rum-Ser, Sev-Rum =
behind him, commensurate with an invasion of Gal). This, of course, =
throws him and Hohn together, although Hohn can't hurt me as presently =
configured.
These (and others) are not tied to each other, i.e., I can stay with Edi =
while hosing England, or vice versa. There are more than these options, =
but thinking about stabbing Edi without help gives me a headache! The =
bigger headache, however, happens when Edi gets to 7 in 1902 and I have =
NO Italian forces available to contain him. (And in a horror situation =
that I pray only exists in my paranoid mind, what if A/T team up and =
smack me in Rum and Gal while Edi convoys to Italy this turn and takes =
Tri? if it was a greedy, tunnel-visioned slob like me, that's what =
*I'd* do!)
Much of my dilemma comes from Edi's call last night. He wants me to =
build F StP(nc) ((angering Eng)) and then move "unsuspecting" to Ukr-War =
while he 'fake attacks me' with Vie-Gal, to throw Germany off the =
trail--followed by a fall 1902 reversal and movement to Tyo and Boh. =
Ah....yeah.
I know I'm just being overly nervous, being the guppy among the =
barracudas. Still, the "kill Turkey then turn on Austria" plan depends =
on a strong Italy for the other pincer, and I don't see him paralleing =
Edi in power--so if someone has to do the job, it may be me. If I do =
stab him, it boilds down to Turkey (of all people)! Does he join me and =
help kill Edi, or see that now's the time to pay me back for the 1901 =
slaps?
Only my hairdresser knows for sure....
Bottom Line: None of this matters until I see what the Hun and the Turk =
build. I may be pleasantly surprised by both, but I'm not holding my =
breath....
To quote Credence Clearwater Revival, "There's a bad moon on the =
rise..."
Tsar Faz
Private message from Russia to Turkey:
Hello Hohn
While I'm probably the last person you'd expect (or want) to hear from, =
I'd like to call you to discuss something. Would that be alright? If =
so, when's a good time, and what's a good number (the one from the W'00 =
broadcast with our "vital stats," or another number)?
The Tsar (reformed, honest)
Private message from Russia to Austria:
Guys,=20
Decided to send this your way after talking to Edi and then replaying =
the board.
1) Germany. Edi and I had discussed a delay in hitting Germany until =
Fall 1902. In retrospect, I see no utility in such a move., for the =
following reasons:
a) Germany will *NOT* be suspecting a combined A/R hit in spring. The =
timing will be sweet, to the tune of:
AUS: tri-Tyo, Vie-Boh
RUS: War (build) to Sil, Ukr-War (thence to Pru)
Munich is a goner, and the chances of Berlin falling (assuming Swe-Bal, =
too) is equally good.
b) Not building in the north keeps King Jamie happy.
c) This is within our combined resources, as Turkey will be down to =
two in Fall (losing Bul to Edi in spring, and Con to me in fall). =
And--quite honestly--the E/I doesn't need Germany in France, and *no =
one* is going to help Pitt, right?
In fact, E/I (probably Eng) can play "good cop" to our "bad cop," =
offering Pitt alliance and support in fall, as a reaction to the "base =
perfidy" of A/R -- and then stab him from behind a turn later!
2) Builds. I am now leaning toward A War in addition to A Sev. Like I =
said above, timing in this one is moot; why wait another turn and blow =
the chance for taking SCs (Mun, Ber) in a fall season?
3) The South. We're solid here. Edi's got BUL in spring, and will =
support me to CON in fall.
What say my fellow Quadripartiters?
Tsar Faz
Now in a Better Mood
Private message from Russia to Italy:
Hello guys
Well, I have heard The Master's Voice (to cop the old RCA motto). Edi =
just called and has some interesting ideas and spin on things.
- The North. Thinks a build of F StP(nc) is a good idea (naturally--one =
less thing near him)! Envisions F Edi-Nwg,. F Lon-Nth (I told him there =
is supposed to be a F Lvp in all this), followed by the fall turn of =
Russian F Nwy-Swe, F Swe-Den, supported by F Den, thus precipitating the =
first shots on Germany by...guess who? The ol' Tsar, evil empire guy =
once again. =20
You'd think I'd learn. I'm the heavy for opening vs Hohn, and now I'm =
the "heavy" again vs Germany! Speaking of...
- Edi thinks we should possibly delay the fireworks on Germany for at =
least a season, so "he's not the only one attacking Pitt." Gag. Wants =
to perhaps "spoof" Pitt by having me go Ukr-War and him moving (get =
this) Tri-h and Vie-GAL(!)! This would be followed by him backtracking =
to BOH and TYO in fall, as my A War goes to Sil. Who's spoofing who =
here?
- The South. Solid down here, or so it seems. He wants me to support =
him to BUL this spring, and then he'll 'probably' support me to CON in =
fall, although "I can do a lot if I'm in ARM." Sigh...as if Hohn will =
let me in ARM! I envision Smy-Arm (Ank S) and Con-Bla to bust my =
support, knowing that he's going to lose BUL anyway.
- Long-term. Edi will be at 6 (minimum) in 1902, and has indicated =
some...ahem..westward leanings in 1903. This boes ill for your =
continued wars vs France, as well as for any help *I* can expect from =
you guys -- you won't even be done with France yet, and Cal will be =
lucky to get one build this game year! I'll be like the old Fugitive =
series, with me as the one-armed man fighting the virile and studly =
"Edi" Jansen atop the water tower. And no ability from you guys to =
help me out. God, I hope Pitt is doing something harmless as regards =
the east in '02, or none of us are going to accomplish a whole heckuva =
lot before we usher in Phase II.
Is it me, or are all my letters sounding increasingly depressing? I =
need positive stimulii, or at least another drink....
Good luck vs France; let's see what the builds offer up, so we can =
figure out the best way to handle the foes that rapidly loom large. No =
matter what my second build is, I'm gonna p*** someone off here, I can =
feel it....
Tsar Faz
Lost in a World of Fantasy (Triumph, 1981?)
Private message from Russia to Italy:
Hello Cal=09
Just a short note to you before I send a similar, "inclusive" message to =
E/I; need to set the proper appearance for our English partner, eh wot?
Edi just called. He's pushing for me to build F StP(nc), as "we're =
going to have to hit Eng sooner or later, and you might not be able to =
build a fleet up there in 1903 or beyond..." Not necessarily to hurt =
Jamie, but to *at least* bamboozle Germany (Nwy-Swe, Swe-Den, supported =
by Eng F Nth in fall).
Quite honestly, there's some method to that madness. Germany will never =
expect a 180* reversal in fall if I'm in Nwy. Also, this move ensures =
England is '[with us," by forcing him to support me to Den if he wants =
me to vacate Nwy! Of course, it probably pisses him off, to boot...
Cal, I'm *REALLY* concerned about your builds and any help vs Edi. He's =
now intimating that "perhaps it would be better" if we waited until FALL =
to hit Germany! he wants to move Vie-GAL(!!) in spring while I move =
Ukr-War(!!!), to 'show surprise at being stabbed by Edi and further =
confuse Germany." Who's more surprised and bamboozled here?!
What does this all have to do with you? Well, let's assume Edi's really =
just being 'truthfully devious.' He gets Bul in spring, and supposedly =
supports me to Con in fall. What do you get in 1902? Possibly nothing. =
EDI'S TALKING ABOUT POSSIBLE 1903 MOVEMENT AGAINST YOU, WHEN TURKEY'S =
DOWN TO AN INSIGNIFICANT AND HARMLESS TWO CENTERS. And realistically, =
what can you do to stop it? You'll have maybe one fleet in the area =
(TyS) and no builds....
What am I supposed to do then? Hit a 6-center Austria with a proxy Turk =
ally, while you scrounge for centers and England presses on in his =
private little war? =20
"It is to laugh."
I really wish in retrospect we just didn't stab Edi right off the bat, =
Hohn or not. It's going to work out that we'll (I'll) be in the soup =
against them, anyway...how ironic.
Ah well, if wishes were horses, eh?
Do what you can to work on England for centers. I'll make the same =
noise in the next letter to the Sub-QC (should be out within 30 mins of =
this one).
Let me know your ideas, thoughts, etc, and whether you think Edi really =
is still sincere when he proposes a 'fake move' to GAL to spoof Germany =
with a "later" hit on him....
The Increasingly-Out-of-Touch-With-Reality
Tsar Faz
Private message from France to Russia:
I sent my urgent appeal to the Kaiser. This is a bit odd, though. He is
rumored to be one of the top players around, and yet he seems rather
sanguine about what seems to me to be an obvious threat emerging. No
doubt, he knows something I don't.
C'est la vie.
France
Private message from Observer to Austria:
If you think that the Turks and Russkies are in cahoots would the following
work...
Austrian F ION-AEG
Turkish F CON-AEG ==> bounces
F TYS/NAP - ION
F NAP/TYS S F TYS/NAP - ION
The Italian fleet moves and dislodges Austrian fleet which can then retreat to
EAS. You get the bounce and keep the Turk out of AEG and then get two fleets
on AEG in the next season on one Turkish fleet.
Pretty ingenious if I say so myself.
But then being a ghod, you probably thought of this already.
An Observer
Private message from Russia to France:
Mon-sewer:
I'll do all I can to help you/us. I'm hoping against hope that Germany
comes around. You could always tell the Hun he's next after E/I squeeze
you (why else, for example, are there Austrians in TRI and VIE, and
Russians in WAR, hmmmm)?
I will work on Pitt as much as I can, but he seems enamored of getting
Paris and joining in the FranceFleshFeast. What I hear, I'll pass
along. Courage, mon ami.
Tsar Faz
Private message from France to Germany:
Kaiser,
No doubt, you are eyeing Paris, but I wish to prevail upon you yet again to
rethink the disastrous course you seem to be pursuing. I truly think that
your best course is to come to France's aid. You can take England out of
Belgium, help me to fend off Italy, and have as your reward a loyal junior
partner rather than two major powers bearing down on you.
Russia is clearly preoccupied to the south, so you have a free hand.
Mun-Pie, Kie-Den, Den-Nth, Bur-Bel, Hol S Bur-Bel: these moves would
completely unhinge the English assault and force Italy on the defensive.
The element of surprise would be all yours as well.
Private message from Russia to Germany:
Pitt
What are your plans for Den, if I may be so bold?
I ask because I covet Norway. But I don't want Germans (however
benevolent) traipsing around behind me if I go there--especially Germans
who may choose to be cozy with England and boot me out of everything up
there.
France's fall will put you on the hot seat, as far as world attention
goes--unless you and E (or A) have some sort of sweetheart deal. beware
the north (and remember, I'm in the EAST).
Yours for truth in Advertising
Tsar Faz
Private message from Russia to France:
Sanguine indeed! Not only does Germany INfrequently communicate, but he
seems to have
(a) nerves made of steel, (b) balls made of iron, or (c) "insider
information" so as to not be unnerved. If the latter, then I suspect an
E/G in the long-term.
There are rumors that say Germany will likely be set upon before you
die, however. As details become available, I'll let you know. For now,
the best you can do is hold on, it seems.
tsar Faz
Private message from Russia to Italy:
Cal,
My phone is (914) 446-1308. Best time to call me is between 5 and 6
p.m. EST, or after 8:30 p.m. ("Child maintenance time" is in between).
On weekends, anytime is really good.
NOTE: This week has us out of the house on Thu and Fri until after 9
p.m., should you have inclination to call then.
Mark
Private message from France to Russia:
My Russian Friend,
I have no one to rely upon but you. You have my blessings for any and all
endeavors.
In truth, I'm sunk if G does not come around.
France
Private message from England to Germany:
>>Since my board moves are all pretty tame and obvious, I will spend my
>>energies on other things this turn.
>
>Yes, OK. I'm assuming that this won't intefere with your promised support
>for me into PAR...?
Oh, no, no interference with that. I really meant, my *diplomatic* energies.
>>will probably start strengthening my ties to Italy.
>
>I am marginally uncomfortable with that. Given Russia's and Austria's all
>army builds (incuding WAR) and France's rapid downfall, I'm feeling a bit
>exposed here in the middle. I'd like to see some ideas for what EG is
>going to do next year, not, frankly, EI.
Well, funny you should mention that.
My idea was that EG is worried about Austria, and generally plans to take on
Russia next year. It seems to me that we therefore want a fairly strong
Italy. Not too strong. Not strong enough to get all ambitious in the MAO,
but strong enough to be a formidable neighbor to Austria.
It's mostly that I feel I should be doing *something* about this Austria
problem, and there's nothing I can do directly. So, I would kind of like to
see Italy get a build this year.
Am I right in thinking that you do *not* want to see Italy get a build? Or
is that that you'd like to see him build, but not like to see him get too
chummy with *me*?
If the latter, I would be glad to leave the arrangements to you.
But my broader question is, what can we do to hamper Austria's expansion? I
know you have a direct interest. I feel I have an interest too. I'm trying
to see the broad picture.
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Germany to Russia:
>I'm sorry I've caused you grief and (needless) worry with the A War
>build.
I certainly hope my worry is needless. You'll certainly have an
oppoprtunity to demonstarte that.
>You have nothing to fear from the Tsar. I have no axe to grind with
>you. Quite honestly, Edi and I continue to have our "love-in"
Yeah. That was the factor that multiplied my worry about A WAR. I'm very
interested in what you and Edi have in mind.
>I'll try and be a little more open very soon. Quite honestly, G/R
>relations won't (can't) flower much more until we discuss The English
>Issue.
I've *been* discussing it! Frankly, I'm getting the sense that you're
ducking me on that issue.
>But I sense nothing concrete from you until France falls and/or
>you get more builds; true?
No, not true. I asked for F STP and for you to take NWY, along with F
SWE-SKA. You take NTH (or try) in the fall. I take PAR this year - we
each get a build. Because your moves in the north drive England closer to
me, I can stab him next spring and we both gain in 1903. How much more
concrete can I get?
-KaiserPitt
Private message from Germany to England:
>Since my board moves are all pretty tame and obvious, I will spend my
>energies on other things this turn.
Yes, OK. I'm assuming that this won't intefere with your promised support
for me into PAR...?
>will probably start strengthening my ties to Italy.
I am marginally uncomfortable with that. Given Russia's and Austria's all
army builds (incuding WAR) and France's rapid downfall, I'm feeling a bit
exposed here in the middle. I'd like to see some ideas for what EG is
going to do next year, not, frankly, EI.
>With no build in StP, I feel that I don't actually need to make any
>promises to Russia. It *looks* like he's prepping for a fight with Austria,
>but, who knows? Anyway, he's not after *me*, that's for sure.
I would have to agree with that. On the other hand, he and Edi could well
be after me.
-KaiserPitt
Private message from Russia to France:
Sanguine indeed! Not only does Germany INfrequently communicate, but he
seems to have
(a) nerves made of steel, (b) balls made of iron, or (c) "insider
information" so as to not be unnerved. If the latter, then I suspect an
E/G in the long-term.
There are rumors that say Germany will likely be set upon before you
die, however. As details become available, I'll let you know. For now,
the best you can do is hold on, it seems.
tsar Faz
Private message from Russia to Italy:
Cal,
My phone is (914) 446-1308. Best time to call me is between 5 and 6
p.m. EST, or after 8:30 p.m. ("Child maintenance time" is in between).
On weekends, anytime is really good.
NOTE: This week has us out of the house on Thu and Fri until after 9
p.m., should you have inclination to call then.
Mark
Private message from France to Russia:
My Russian Friend,
I have no one to rely upon but you. You have my blessings for any and all
endeavors.
In truth, I'm sunk if G does not come around.
France
Private message from Italy to Master:
Mark: Okay, I give up, I'm swamped in all this e-mail.
What is your phone number and when can I call you?
Cal
Private message from Russia to England:
Fellow Perspirators,
OK. I've built the requisite armies, and Edi as well. Our moves will =
go as advertised (Edi? hello? Edi?). =20
England built a fleet in Edi (the board Edi, not the Austrian Edi) to =
satisfy Germany, oops, I mean "the androgynous member of our =
Quadriceps." (Who the H--- wanted him in our neighborhood, anyway?! I =
wanted Norway!) =20
The rest of the English moves are a mystery inside a puzzle, wrapped in =
an enigma, and made eminently clear by the lack of verbiage about them. =
Removing my tongue from cheek, I wish you well for the seas you sail =
for...=20
=20
Hopefully Germany won't press for the Paris support thing in the West, =
although the further he draws from Mun/Sil, the better the chances of =
success...the A/R chances of success, that is. Repeat the mantras =
after me: "Timing is everything....Get French centers...Faz Deserves =
the Win..." (oops, how did that last one get in there?).
Will await your joyous First Coming upon German soil next year(?). =
Three huzzahs for the QC! On to Munich, Silesia, Marseilles, and the =
easy and thoughtless moves of the English (isn't that the shorthand =
interpretation of what you wrote)?
Sorry...got a case of the giddies tonight. Too many reviews of the =
lesson plan for tomorrow...appropriately entitled "Complex =
Interdependence!" =20
If any crises occur between now and then, I'll talk to you all when next =
I turn on, tune in, and drop out.
The Increasingly Erratic Tsar Faz
Showing Signs of that Romanov Inbreeding
Vienna, (Free Press)
The night air was crisp and cool to the tongue and lips that tasted just the
slight touch of bloodlust in the air. BirSauron was quickly aroused from the
Dark Tower and peered over the battlements to the Southeast:
"What manner of deployment do we have there, could it be that the Pagan Dogs
of the Sick Man's world have barked up the wrong tree? Or is this some clever
ploy to re-establish the conditions of the Crimean War as a birthday present
to the Czar? Nay, for the Turboned one is not so inclined. Could it be that
he and the Northern Emperor have arranged their fleets to make a Cho-Cho train
through Constaniople and on to the sunny shores of Greece. In the face of
such provocation clearly we must bring support for the cradle of civilization
and protest the incursion of such Turkish delights in our back waters."
The screech from the far west was also something of a distraction for the high
collared noble of the Trans-astral planes. Looking a far at the dark shadows
of the fallen sun he could only comment:
"Seems that there was some rather intense displays of things, amazing when
once considers the talk of the wires on such prospects. Seems like the good
old days..."
Private message from England to Austria:
Regarding matters nearly spoken of earlier:
These next two turns I will make the same way almost regardless of future
plans. Thereafter, I'll have to have some definite mid-game goals in mind. I
won't ask you what yours are, YET. (Need-to-know kind of thing.) But I hope
you'll be ready to 'share' next year or so.
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Russia:
Conspirators,
Ok. So, Russia has built the requisite armies, and Austria as expected. As
advertised, I built a fleet in Lvp, but I decided to build the east coast
fleet in Edi to satisfy the eponymous member of our tetrad.
My moves are easy and require little thought. If I can be of diplomatic
assistance to any of you, do let me know.
V,
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Russia to France:
John: =20
Will be trying to act as your "trusted agent" regarding pending English, =
German and/or Italian moves vs you, if that's ok?
You have no reason to trust me, I guess, but then again--you have no =
reason NOT to, either. I'm doing this for balance-of-power concerns, =
mind you: A strong E or G means more trouble for me further down the =
road. A viable France is in BOTH our interests.
Current scuttlebutt has Eng planning to bounce Por in the Mid (with =
Bre), until F Lvp can force the place in fall. Italy is desperately =
seeking German help vs MAR, but Germany is bound and determined to get =
Paris (with requested English help). The final adjudication is under =
discussion.
I would hope you keep this data (and future notes) strictly between us. =
I'll plausibly deny anything, unless you play in extremis and ship one =
of my notes to someone directly. And I think we both realize that =
would prove counterproductive to us both.
Sound ok?
Tsar Faz
Private message from England to Turkey:
>Heh. Thanks. Any attack on the treacherous Tsar would of
>course be welcomed. ;)
Well, maybe something like that.
>Let me know if I can be of any service to you.
Oh, I shall. :)
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Russia to Germany:
Hello Pitt,
I'm sorry I've caused you grief and (needless) worry with the A War
build. Your builds were well-reasoned and "generic," covering yourself
from whatever direction a threat might arise. I like to think that's
why I built War, also....
You have nothing to fear from the Tsar. I have no axe to grind with
you. Quite honestly, Edi and I continue to have our "love-in" regarding
Turkey, but nothing lasts forever with two large land-oriented
neighbors. Warsaw is insurance for later. Similarly, should the
English prove greedier than normal, I can always cover the homeland
after 1903.
I'll try and be a little more open very soon. Quite honestly, G/R
relations won't (can't) flower much more until we discuss The English
Issue. But I sense nothing concrete from you until France falls and/or
you get more builds; true?
There's plenty of time for us to discuss mutual interests; but please
don't fear Warsaw. You have no need to.
Tsar Faz
Private message from Turkey to Master:
Jim,
A few notes on my current state of mind.
As a preliminary note, due to unforeseen work commitments
and other things, I haven't had as much time as I'd wanted
to devote to negotiations in this game. Also, although I'd
been in contact with Edi via phone, and I initiated contact
with Mark via phone after Spring 1901, I think I should have
been more active telephonically prior to the first turn, and
if I had, I may have been in a better position now. I
genuinely believe (and indeed, I think psychological studies
have shown, IIRC) that interpersonal contact of a more
familiar nature (i.e. direct phone contact as opposed to the
more impersonal nature of letters) allows one to forge
relationships and trust more quickly and more deeply. Oh
well, that's my error, and I'm living with it now. Perhaps
it wouldn't have made a difference anyway.
As for this past turn, I was genuinely thinking Mark might
have had a change of heart, but I wasn't counting on it by
any stretch of the imagination. Still, I played it up front
with him in the hopes that he'd take the bait and move into
GAL. He didn't, and I wasn't surprised. He has a solid
tactical advantage over me, and every reason to believe that
Edi will go with him. A WAR did surprise me, though.
An interesting tactical note of my own with respect to
negotiations was my deliberate flub of promising to have my
A BUL support Russian A UKR-RUM if I decided to tap BLA,
then resending the proper proposed move of A BUL support A
SEV-RUM to Mark a few minutes later. The impression I'd
wanted to create was that I'd proposed the initial incorrect
set of orders, then I'd sent my orders in and noticed my
mistake, and notified him accordingly. That would increase
the chances of him not moving to ARM (the rationale being
that I'd issued the support order of BUL S SEV-RUM, coupled
with a tapping of BLA and a move of ANK-ARM) and trying for
ANK instead, I reasoned. No clue if it worked, but I
figured it couldn't hurt. In actuality, there was no way I
was going to risk losing ANK and not building this turn, but
Mark didn't know that.
My build of A SMY was likewise obvious. Mark has proven
himself to be treacherous twice, and there's no way I can
work with him until he demonstrates unilateral goodwill by
pulling out. Until then, I will happily nod to him and pay
lip service to his efforts to convince me to adopt whatever
plan o' day that he proposes, but I'm not buying any of it.
My hopes now rest on my old friend Edi. I believe he will
probably take the hammer to me while I'm resting on the
anvil of Russia, but I'm going to use every negotiating
tactic and tool at my disposal to try to convince him not
to. This raises some interesting issues, I think, with
respect to some meta-game factors. I have never passed
e-mail before in my life. But I'm willing to do it now, to
Edi, in order to try to save my skin. I figure I don't give
a damn if Edi tells Mark, since there's no way it could
_further_ sour relations between Mark and me. And I figure
I've known Edi long enough that he won't lose respect for me
for making the offer. So I made it.
I'm also going to be playing on any and all goodwill that
I'm able with Edi, reminding him of our past history of
working well together (and we have), of my steadfastness and
trustworthiness as an ally (and I have been, for the most
part), and basically invoking nostalgia and the "good times"
of past games in an effort to convince him not to send me
packing in this game. This raises the question of whether
such behavior is ethical, or if it raises the specter of
cross-gaming. I don't think there is any actual
cross-gaming here, since Edi and I (to my knowledge) are not
in any games together currently. But is using credibility
and judging another player's character based on past games
and events ethical? Is it something that is one of the
benefits of a great deal of experience, or is it improper?
Personally, I lean towards the former, but regardless, I'm
doing it, because I'm up against the wall and desperate.
Other than that, I'm going to keep my promise of hurling
myself against Mark. I'm going to offer Edi BUL free and
clear, if he'll work with me. I'll play willing puppet to
Edi because my alternative is elimination. I just have to
hope I have the opportunity to dig myself out later on.
I also intend to be more active than I was this past turn
with other countries; as an experienced player, I of course
know the importance of even remote countries to my own fate.
I just haven't had the time to devote as much time to it as
I would have liked.
Hohn
Private message from Russia to Turkey:
Hohn
Thanks for the reply, and I hope your workload's slowed down somewhat.
I will indeed call, although I want to wait a little while longer. (No,
nothing Machiavellian vs you; THAT part has already been done.) I need
to clear my brain as to the proper approach to take regarding the north,
and then I'll be in touch.
In the south, you can imagine the scenario: Bla S Sev-Arm, Ser-Bul (Gre
and Rum S), Ion-Aeg. In fall, CON goes, and you're down to two. But
like I said, let me see the north--E/G seem to making some ... ahem ...
chummy plans, and I may be diverted longer than planned. I need to
check out Edi's views on your survival...who knows, the Master may show
some compassion!
Thanks for the open comm lines!
Tsar Faz
>----------
>From: USIN Diplomacy Judge[SMTP:[email protected]]
>Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 1997 11:13 AM
>To: Fassio, M. MAJ SOC
>Subject: Diplomacy notice: ghodstoo
>
> News about USIN can be found at
> http://kleiman.indianapolis.in.us/usin.htm
>
>**************************************************
>** Judgekeeper will be away from Feb 19th until **
>** Feb 23rd. Any problems will go unaddressed **
>** until my return. I'm hoping for birdies! **
>**************************************************
>
> All unmoderated games will be removed.
> Judge keeper is [email protected].
> Judge address is [email protected]
>
>Message from [email protected] as Turkey to Russia in 'ghodstoo':
>
>Mark,
>
>> While I'm probably the last person you'd expect (or want) to hear from, =
>> I'd like to call you to discuss something. Would that be alright? If =
>> so, when's a good time, and what's a good number (the one from the W'00 =
>> broadcast with our "vital stats," or another number)?
>
>You can call me literally any time at work, (213) 955-4689,
>although the best chances of getting me are in the
>mid-afternoon, Pacific time. I'm always willing to talk.
>Sorry I didn't get to this sooner; I've been frantically
>busy. If it was regarding unit builds, I suppose it's a
>moot point, but if it's any consolation, there's nothing you
>could have said to talk me out of building A SMY.
>
>I'm open to other suggestions, though, certainly.
>
>> The Tsar (reformed, honest)
>
>Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. ;)
>
>Hohn
>
>
>
Private message from Turkey to Russia:
Mark,
> While I'm probably the last person you'd expect (or want) to hear from, =
> I'd like to call you to discuss something. Would that be alright? If =
> so, when's a good time, and what's a good number (the one from the W'00 =
> broadcast with our "vital stats," or another number)?
You can call me literally any time at work, (213) 955-4689,
although the best chances of getting me are in the
mid-afternoon, Pacific time. I'm always willing to talk.
Sorry I didn't get to this sooner; I've been frantically
busy. If it was regarding unit builds, I suppose it's a
moot point, but if it's any consolation, there's nothing you
could have said to talk me out of building A SMY.
I'm open to other suggestions, though, certainly.
> The Tsar (reformed, honest)
Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. ;)
Hohn
Private message from Turkey to England:
Jamie,
> Info on Russia:
> He tells me only that he expects to be heavily involved in
> the South. He hopes but is not confident that Germany will
> let him have Sweden. He is (or feigns to be) frightened
> near to death of Edi Birsan.
Sounds familiar. The A WAR build was particularly
interesting to me.
> Info on Italy:
> I can tell you confidently that you have nothing to fear
> from Italian ships. :-)
Heh. Glad to hear that!
> Anything you can share that might be helpful to me?
Regrettably, my negotiating has been rather limited to my
immediate area of Europe, particularly concerning my own
predicament. This is because of time constraints,
primarily, which is also why I haven't been able to reply to
this until now. You have my apologies.
> Condolences from the Other Witch.
Thanks. I'm not giving up hope quite yet. We'll see what
this season brings.
> Hang in there. For perfectly selfish reasons, I'd like to
> stir up some trouble down there. See what I can do. Don't
> hold your breath, though.
> On second thought, hold your breath. (What alternative do
> you have, after all?)
Heh. Thanks. Any attack on the treacherous Tsar would of
course be welcomed. ;)
Let me know if I can be of any service to you. Thanks for
your kind words and your effort in maintaining our
communications lines.
Hohn
Private message from Russia to Austria:
Hi Edi
Thanks again for your phone call; much appreciated!
I think my build of A War was the best way to go if we're all in this
for the long-run (i.e., as long as we want to see F and T reduced before
G, that is)! Given that Jamie is only sending one fleet eastward
Edi-Nwg (or Nth), with bel supporting, I can always build a second unit
in STP next turn and take the place, if I get the urge. Or I can sail
there now and claim necessity, but that would get messy.
I am anticipating your moves to Tyo and Boh. You should be anticipating
mine to War and Sil, ALTHOUGH I may go War-Pru (Swe-Bal) instead. This
way, if Pitt uses Mun-Sil, Kie-Mun, then it's a crap shoot as to whether
he defends two vs you in Mun, or two vs me in BER. (He could, I guess,
also move Den-Swe, figuring I'll go to Nwy (or Bal), or shoot for the
Bal bounce and go Kie-Den. What say you?)
The advantage of us moving now is obvious. No delayed attack means
centers for us in Fall '02. Also, with Italy and England tied down vs
France, and woried over the Hun, it means we get the lion's share of the
goodies before they.
Let's kick some butt, and quickly, mon ami!
Tsar Faz
Private message from England to Russia:
>Ok, I give. I will repeat the mantra..."the "only" concern is getting
>Cal centers quickly."
Good man. Ommmmm.
>I just don't see Germany giving support when he fears an E/I.
That's a concern, I agree. We'll work on it. Maybe we'll think of a
different approach. (We = Cal and I.)
>No
>support, no Italian centers. No Italian gains, no fast front, no
>stopping Austria. The snowball effect does indeed kick in, because,
>like Jamie, I want this thing to work, too. But I'll withdraw from any
>Russian attack on Germany if I'm expected to take on Edi alone, or with
>an Italy that's got an 80% westward commitment.
Hey, don't threaten *me*, bud. (One thing I love about Diplomacy is that
you can threaten by proposing to sit on your hands.)
But what are we disagreeing about? This is my chief concern, too. Getting
Italy Marseilles ==> getting Italy his full complement of centers sooner
==> Italy prepared to join the fight against Austria sooner. And the
keystone of it all is, securing some cooperation from Germany ==> getting
Italy Marseilles.
>I'm thinking of some options in the fevered brain of mine, rest assured.
> This *will* work, you two *will* handle France, and truth and justice
>shall yet prevail!
I knew it! How could I be agnostic when the very name of the game entails
the existence of Ghod?? Stop that mantra, commence prayer immediately.
ANNUIT COEPTIS
May It bless our sails and cannon,
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Russia to Italy:
Ok, I give. I will repeat the mantra..."the "only" concern is getting
Cal centers quickly."
I just don't see Germany giving support when he fears an E/I. No
support, no Italian centers. No Italian gains, no fast front, no
stopping Austria. The snowball effect does indeed kick in, because,
like Jamie, I want this thing to work, too. But I'll withdraw from any
Russian attack on Germany if I'm expected to take on Edi alone, or with
an Italy that's got an 80% westward commitment. I ("We") can't fight
residue Turks, growing Archdukes, and benevolent Huns simultaneously
unless we're concentrated and in position...and from the sound of
things, we're going to be hitting people sequentially, and at
less-than-100% strength.
I'm thinking of some options in the fevered brain of mine, rest assured.
This *will* work, you two *will* handle France, and truth and justice
shall yet prevail!
I thank you for the correspondence and the stiff upper lips...pip pip,
and all that.
Tsar Faz
Private message from England to Turkey:
Condolences from the Other Witch.
Hang in there. For perfectly selfish reasons, I'd like to stir up some
trouble down there. See what I can do. Don't hold your breath, though.
On second thought, hold your breath. (What alternative do you have, after all?)
Cheers!
Wicked Witch of the West
Private message from England to Italy:
Cal,
Ok, here's how I see it. We have two options. *I* could try to persuade
Germany to get you Marseilles. Advantage: I have lots of leverage. He
really needs my good will now, since his northern flank is awfully bare of
protection, and his two Eastern neighbors are piling up quite a lot of
armies. Disadvantage: Pitt may not be very enthusiastic about the idea of a
big hefty Anglo-Italian alliance. I will test the waters very gingerly.
Second, *you* could try to persuade him yourself. Advantage: your line
could be, Germany is likely to need help against either England or Austria;
Italy is his best friend in either case. Also, you have no impending
conflicts with him at all. And, you are the smallest power with any future,
so you are not threatening. Disadvantage: you don't have too much leverage.
He's likely to say, "I'll just take Paris and help you out next year."
It's at least conceivable that Pitt's real plan is to take Paris, then in
the Fall strike at Belgium, and build two fleets. I doubt it; he'd have to
be a lot more confident than he's entitled to be about Russia and Austria.
But maybe he knows something, or thinks he knows something.
What's your take?
G. K. Jamie
Private message from England to Russia:
Amici,
I want to move on to other things, and I'm about to send a note to Cal
separately, but I will address this again, because I think it's important.
>How you handle the Paris thing is up to you guys. Again, for my
>((unwanted)) two-cents' worth, I throw back the question we ALL banty
>about when discussing QC targets: SO WHAT if you agitate him regarding
>Paris? You owe him nothing, and his builds indicate no anti-English
>hostility (so, no preparedness to fight). And if he supports John in
>Paris as a result, you work Iberia first. Easy advice, coming from
>someone who doesn't have to muck about over there, I'll
>acknowledge....But who are your other enemies? You have none! And one
>turn of 'diplomatically saying no' to Germany will vanish when the
>invasion(s) come; he'll worry more about the East, than being spurned in
>Paris.
Ok, look. The *only* concern here is getting Cal builds as fast as
possible. You're implying that I am worrying about Germany attacking *me*,
but that's utterly untrue.
Without German help, Cal will not get any new centers this year.
With German help, he gets Marseilles. And there's a snowball effect. If
Marseilles this year, then a good prospect of *two more* next year ('03).
(There is no question of Germany supporting John in Paris! There isn't a
chance in hell of getting two non-German units against Paris until Cal has
crashed through the French southern defenses.)
But why the rush? We all know why. The sooner Italy gets his builds, the
sooner he can take on Austria, whether aggressively (pre-emptively, let's
say) or defensively (as Faz has hinted, Italy might just be playing defense
sooner than we'd like). Cal's official position is that he wants to have
his seven centers before he goes for Austria. Maybe he'll soften that
position a bit, not my affair. But no matter what Cal decides, there's no
question but that he needs as many centers as possible, as fast as possible.
You know, in the big picture this doesn't really concern me. It's *your*
two skins on the line down there. But this is the alliance I have freely
chosen, and it's the one I want, and I want it to work. And if Italy is
puttering away in Iberia when Edi starts getting really hungry, that's not
good.
You dig, daddy-o?
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Germany:
Hi.
Good builds from my perspective, all of them. If I'd been allowed to order
them myself, those are the ones I would have ordered!
Since my board moves are all pretty tame and obvious, I will spend my
energies on other things this turn. Especially since you confirm (share) my
worries about Edi (the guy, not the fleet), I will look into that matter. I
will probably start strengthening my ties to Italy. My (vague) idea is that
we want to weave a kind of net around Austria, containment. Tactically, I
actually prefer attacking Italy all out at a moment like this. But
diplomatically/strategically I think that might be a bad idea.
With no build in StP, I feel that I don't actually need to make any
promises to Russia. It *looks* like he's prepping for a fight with Austria,
but, who knows? Anyway, he's not after *me*, that's for sure.
I guess I'm saying, I think we need a plan now. Or not now right this
minute, but we need to shape one over the next few days.
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Russia to Italy:
Thanks for the recent King James note regarding German builds and Edi's
intentions. I think the 'shaming' idea is a good one, i.e., telling Edi
this should be a wide-open demo, not just a rehash of the 'same old'
alliances and CYAs. If it's anything like the 'shaming' I try on him,
it will (a) not be taken personal and (b) will roll off him like water
on a duck's back. Still, I think it should be tried.
The German "stopping-up" of A/R for a year is indeed no big deal. A lot
of it comes down to the 'good cop/bad cop' thing (again!), in the sense
that you jump him a couple turns after he's diverted down south. I
realize why he did it--he doesn't mistrust E or R, but doesn't trust us
completely either, so he's centralizing forces for either front, with
coverage everywhere.
My only big concern with his army build in Kie is that it might give Edi
a "weaseling out" excuse to not try his attack, i.e., "what if he
bounces Faz in Sil and/or moves to Tyo against me?" The logical answer
to that is: I move War-Pru (Swe-Bal?) while Edi does his attack. With
this move, it's moot if he moves to Sil or not--it just means that we
overextend his coverage and see whether Edi gets Mun or I get Ber (or he
gets Swe)! A crapshoot, really (and War's covered by Ukr).
Bottom line: I have no concern (humorous or real) about English
imbalance of gain vs Germany. It's doubtful you'll get "all the spoils"
from a German attack, given that you have a F bel and a new F Edi for
the total British war effort in the theater. I welcome your presence,
but I expect minimal effect until late '03 at best. Ditto for Cal -- if
Edi doesn't hit him before then.
How you handle the Paris thing is up to you guys. Again, for my
((unwanted)) two-cents' worth, I throw back the question we ALL banty
about when discussing QC targets: SO WHAT if you agitate him regarding
Paris? You owe him nothing, and his builds indicate no anti-English
hostility (so, no preparedness to fight). And if he supports John in
Paris as a result, you work Iberia first. Easy advice, coming from
someone who doesn't have to muck about over there, I'll
acknowledge....But who are your other enemies? You have none! And one
turn of 'diplomatically saying no' to Germany will vanish when the
invasion(s) come; he'll worry more about the East, than being spurned in
Paris.
After all "I" angered a benevolent Germany by standing by my guns and
building War (claiming an Aus enemy); you should be able to stand up to
the (one-fleet) Hun with similar rationale(s)...I have FIRM faith in the
glibness of the English monarch's tongue and diplomatic weavings....you
guys will think of something!
We're on...now if only Edi sends a missive with encouraging news...
Tsar Faz
Private message from England to Master:
The Inside Scoop from Whitehall (March 1902)
My real views should be fairly clear from the partial press record.
Here's a representation of the alliance structure from my point of view:
(Germany(Austria(Italy(Russia(me)))))
(where in the ideal case powers get stripped off the outside and fall by
the wayside one at a time over the course of the game)
Edi Birsan's four-way alliance plan sounded good to me for several reasons.
One, I felt I hit it off with Mark Faz right away, so I preferred to ally
with him for the long term. We have similar styles, and we both send lots
of press. Two, as I said to several powers, my main fear as England is
always that I might face an FG alliance; this Birsan plan would be a good
contingency in case such an alliance emerged. Three, I liked the way things
would be likely to shape up positionally in the midgame, with several good
options for me. Four, I could sense a deep-rooted fear of Edi in the souls
of Cal and Faz, which would bode very well for me if the four-way should be
successful. And last, just for the reason Edi gave: it's nice to
demonstrate something unusual in a demo game.
I fanned the flames of fear a bit, and this little three-power 'subset'
alliance was born easily. I think this is strongly to my advantage, for
obvious reasons. If, as I suspect and hope, everything proceeds by plan,
and Italy and Russia get stuck fighting Austria long after my main enemies
are in ruins, I have several possible continuations, all good. One very
interesting one would be just to *wait* while they struggle. Waiting in a
midgame is an underrated strategy. [I learned this from Dan Shoham, Jon
Tan, and Conrad Minshall, all of whom play France expertly and often adopt
waiting strategies. I think I will play England much as France is often
played, though of course lacking the great geographic flexibility, so I
will have to make up for that lack somehow.]
Of course, I want to see Russia and Austria attack Germany this year, while
I stay very neutral, just taking Norway and manouevering a little around
France. I would like to have fleets set up in Portugal and MAO, or Por and
Bre temporarily, after about 1904. My other units attack Germany, and I
will try to ferry armies in there. I'd then be prepared to go down the
middle with my armies, or switch rapidly west and around Gibraltar if I
decide to try to take the game to an early endgame with me fighting Italy,
or conceivably switch east for a big stab against Russia (but this is my
least favorite option at the moment).
In any case, with such a wide open future, and players I don't know at all
from a different "Diplomacy Culture", my main plan is to have a flexible
position with nearly impregnable defense and various offensive potentials
(armies on the continent are crucial for the latter).
I find it interesting that I'm scheming *with* all the postal players
*against* all the internet players. Not what I would have expected!
Fun game.
(Gentle King) Jamie
Private message from England to Russia:
No surprises. Not for me, anyway. I was pretty sure Germany would build armies.
A few thoughts bubbling out of my first cup of coffee this morning. (Ok, my
second.)
1.
>- A pity Pitt's not building F Kiel. While that may not be very =
>compassionate toward England, he and I will be able to handle Pitt, =
>whether he's got 1 or 2 fleets. However, If he smells Edi or me coming =
>(and I've received THREE "build in StP, not War" notes from him =
>tonight!), what's to prevent him from bouncing SIL or TYO and wrecking =
>all the timing?
But who cares?? So, he'll blockade you guys and hold you off for a year.
Then I'll cut him to ribbons from the top. As long as Edi remains engaged,
we have nothing to worry about. Right? Or probably I'm not understanding
what timing you mean.
Are you afraid I'll steal all the goodies?
2.
>- We have to keep him looking (and moving) westward, to prevent a defeat =
>of the opening salvo. Maybe in this case it woukld be a good idea to =
>(as with Edi) promise Pitt Par, i.e., Bur-Par, Mun-Bur (i.e., "Pitt, =
>move to Bur and pay us back by supporting Cal in fall"); think that =
>might be a player?
Yes, I do think that's the best line.
Let me think about it for a day, ok? Cal and I should discuss it and
coordinate. It's going to be just a bit touchy. I previously told Pitt that
I definitely did *not* have a serious alliance with Italy. If I'm going to
change my tune I want to plan to do it smoothly. But I do think it's the
right idea, it's the only way we're going to get any help for Mar.
Wait. Maybe there's another way. Well, Cal and I should discuss this
separately.
3.
We're the only powers with more than one fleet. Just thought I'd mention that.
4.
I have an idea.
We're all concerned about Edi jumping ship. I thought of a little leverage.
I will tell him, at the next available comfortable moment, that I thought
he wanted to have an interesting game, so that this Demo could Demonstrate
something. But now (I'll continue) it's sounding like all he's really
interested in is covering his own butt. I'll say that I find this a bit
disappointing.
What do you think? Do you think this might work? Would it irritate him?
Cal, you have a better sense for this than we do, what's your feeling? If
you think it might work, let me do it. From either of you it would just
obviously be something you'd say to keep him off you.
Cheers!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Russia to Italy:
Cal
I'll try and send a longer letter today, but for now, here's my views on
your most
recent note.
I think Edi is just biding his time to nail you, and I'm unsure as to
the *depth* of any E/A collusion...but I definitely think there is a lot
of that. Germany's note to me last night intimated a "fake bounce"
press war, and other such smokescreens, and he's made it clear he smells
an A/R rat with the builds. Like I said, as long as we can still get
the jump on him, it's irrelevant.
My fears are twofold at this point:
1) England holds back and in reality works with Germany (or at least
"slows down the timing of his role" in the crusade) while A/R take the
brunt of the fighting. I see parts of that now, as Germany flat-out
refuses to think of anti-E operations. (A key will be whether England
supports Germany to Paris, or moves to help you instead.)
2) The second fear is that Edi plays some sort of cutesy game and
withholds his attack, or tries for Gal anyway, making me look the fool,
and giving himself time to weasel out of anything.
Both these fears are real, albeit minimal right now. I believe Edi will
do what he says, and the Turk build of A Smy shows that he's playing it
more anti-R than anti-A, but still retains flexibility to cover all
coastlines and threats.
The German build is also somewhat benign -- "middle of the road"
coverage, by not antagonziing Eng (via building F kie) and not
antagonziing me (by building A Ber). As such, we can still get units vs
Mun this turn, and I can get to Sil (or Pru).
It becomes a guessing game, really: if Pitt moves Mun-Sil, Kie-ber and
bounces, then it's two Edi pieces vs Mun, S by Kie. So I'm almost
channeled to War-Pru (Swe-Bal), and who knows what his F den will do.
You are my biggest concern, partner. Like I said before, I think you're
being left out to dry in all of this, and I don't have any help vs Edi.
I don't say that from a greedy point of view, I say it from a "if Edi
hits Cal, who will help?" point of view....especially as you'll be up to
your ears in the Western campaign.
let me mull over some options and ideas, and I'll try to stay in touch.
make sure England doesn't support Germany. in all honesty, if he does,
you'd be better to cut your French losses and let John buttress the
north vs E/G while you guard your rear. NOT what you want to hear, I
realize, and certainly not "per the plan."
I just hope everyone IS going "per the plan." I think they've changed
pages on us, Cal.
Tsar Faz