Movement

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus!

At last, we meet!

And on favorable terms, presumably. I would like to have an RI alliance, no
matter what else I do. (You are the first person I'm writing to.) I suggest
that we put off details until we've seen a little action, especially since
I don't know Cooley or Sevin at all, and clearly their disposition will be
most crucial for us.

I've got no particular requests, except that I really hope you'll face
eastward and not pull a strange trick like Cal did in Ghodstoo. If you have
any, let me know.

Ciao, baby

Jamie

Message from Russia to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Good morning, Sultan.

I am hoping we can at least begin on friendly terms, and if you have an
interest in anything more substantial I'm all ears.

And by the way, I'll be happy to explain any arcane features of the Judge
that you may find mysterious.

Here's to your prosperity,
Jamie

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Good morning, Kaiserungarn.

I am hoping for a peaceful beginning between us, at least. If you are
likeminded, I'll come up with some details, and maybe something more
substantial to think about.

To interesting times,
Jamie

Message from Russia to France in 'pouchtoo':

Afternoon, Hohn. Or morning, I suppose, to you.

I seem to have these two unknowns on my flank in the south. For that
reason, I am inclined to play a southern opening. You can feel free to pass
that intelligence around if you like.

In the north, I am hoping that you and I can have a kind of Mutual Aid
society, in the event of an aggressive EG pairing in the opening. And maybe
we could try to cook up some unusual largish alliance, in the spirit of
Demonstration and all -- anyway keep it in mind, maybe something will leap
out at you.

To interesting times,
Jamie

Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Good afternoon, Jon.

For now, how about just a little, ordinary agreement that I won't bother
you at all, A Warsaw stays away from you, and will you let me into Sweden?
Off hand I am thinking I'll play a southern opening, but that's not at all
set in stone (it's mainly because I don't know Turkey or Austria at all).

To interesting times,
Jamie

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

Afternoon, Cal.

With no Edi to distract us, let's see if we can do a little better in the
opening this game, eh?

I would mainly like to see what I can do (offer?) to keep you from playing
an anti-Russian opening. A fleet in Norway, rather than an army, maybe? I'd
be willing to reciprocate in some reasonable way, of course.

The other thing is that I'm mildly worried that Jon and Hohn will come out
swinging hard, to the detriment of the balance of power (and of you in
particular!). I'd rather have England plus XXX be the primary allies in the
north than Germany plus France. So that's another common interest.

Check in when you get a chance,
Jamie

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> At last, we meet!
>
Indeed!  It's been a long time coming.  Let us work to make it a pleasant
experience for us both.

> And on favorable terms, presumably. I would like to have an RI alliance, no
> matter what else I do. (You are the first person I'm writing to.)
>
Dittoes here.  Russia is (IMHO) the best possible partner for Italy, so I
happily accept your offer of friendship.  I will look into the Austrian's
position on things and set up a Lepanto, since I would like to propose
that we initially work with Austria to eliminate Turkey, rather than
vice-versa.  (Yes, I don't want the possibility of a juggernaut to linger;
if I am to be your friend in the waters, I want to make sure I'm the only
one. :-)

> I suggest
> that we put off details until we've seen a little action, especially since
> I don't know Cooley or Sevin at all, and clearly their disposition will be
> most crucial for us.
>
Indeed so.  Let us keep each other posted concerning what we learn, and go
>from there.  If you have any "line" you want me to lay out there, let me
know, and I will do the same.

> I've got no particular requests, except that I really hope you'll face
> eastward and not pull a strange trick like Cal did in Ghodstoo. If you have
> any, let me know.
>
Well, though I observed ghodstoo, I didn't CLOSELY observe it.  Could you
satisfy my curiosity and tell me what it was that Cal did?

> Ciao, baby
>
Do Svedanya!

Manus

Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Greetings from the boot.  As the closest neighbors on the board, I hope
we can become the closest partners.

(Before I get much further, let me offer you belated congratulations on
your World Championship.  I don't know if you remember me from Goteborg,
but if not, I look forward to [hopefully] seeing you again in Chapel
Hill later this year!)

(Also, as one of the "old hands" in the e-mail game, I will be glad to
assist you with any questions you think can be safely addressed to me
[such as, "how do I tell the 'judge' that I want to stab Italy?"  ANSWER:
"You don't."])

Anyway, back to the game....

As Italy, I like to play the fleet game, and so I seek a partner who
will concentrate on the land.  With only one port and that one not very
useful (in addition to the other benefits of an A/I partnership), Austria
is of course an excellent choice.

If you are agreeable to a pact of alliance, my intent, then, would be
to set up a Lepanto, in order to eliminate the competition on the waters.

I am open to any form of partnership, and any form of the Lepanto.  I
hesitate to mention the Key Lepanto, but if you are willing, I will be
a very trustworthy partner.  As I have said, my interests lie in the sea,
and so if you choose the Key, you can be sure to have no worries from my
army on its way to Serbia and Turkey.  I realize full-well that Italy's
interests are best served by a strong Austria, and yet I also know how
successful a false war between our two powers can be.

The thing we two have to fear most is a Russia/Turkey juggernaut, and I
pledge to you that it is my first order of business to make sure that
the juggernaut does not happen.  From my position, working on Turkey is
the only way to do this, and so I write to seek your help and alliance.

I look forward to your response, and to working with you.

Manus

Message from Italy to Master in 'pouchtoo':

Question:  If this is a "game for the ages," are you (1) saving the partial
press and (2) wanting us to give you some running commentary in PRESS TO M?

Manus

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Vittorio, Joe, etc.,

Ok.
I almost suggested that you should pick our first target, but then I didn't.
But I'm quite willing.
So Turkey is the first victim, with your Lepanto, probably my opening
strong and ugly into the Black Sea, and (we hope) Austria moving to
surround Bulgaria.

I have no 'line' in particular for you to let out, but let's not make it
appear that we are working too closely. The only really bad problem we
could have (the only one I could have in the *south*) is if we drive Turkey
and Austria together and everything gets blocked and stuffed up. Yuck.


>Well, though I observed ghodstoo, I didn't CLOSELY observe it.  Could you
>satisfy my curiosity and tell me what it was that Cal did?

Oh, well, following a Grand Plan by Edi, he sailed west, then panicked when
it looked like he wouldn't get any French centers right away and Edi was
growing, so he did an about face with just his four units and headed back
east. This doomed him to a weak game, of course (as westward Italian
openings usually do in games with strong players, huh?).

What do you think about trying to add a partner to this alliance? Or even
two? Northerners? Or maybe add France, and a temporary Austria? Hm. It
could be something as simple as Ganging Up on the WItches, then F+R take on
Germany and I+R take on Austria, and then the three of us duke it out in
the ending.... Not that I expect any plan made in this opening to actually
get played out in practice, not with these characters on the loose.

Jamie

Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Greetings!

I will be frank and honest with you.  My first move will likely look like a
Lepanto.  As Italy, my initial interest is in making sure that there is no
juggernaut (can you blame me?).  I am of the school that the best partnerships
are one sea power and one land power, and so I will be intent to establish
myself as the pre-eminent force in the Med.

That said, however, I want to make sure you know that this attitude does not
preclude my establishing a strong partnership with you, and it is this that
I am writing to propose.  You are far better equipped than I for land battles,
and so if you wish to form an alliance with me by pushing your wood north and
northwest rather than onto fleets and out towards me, I would be very
interested in this.

An I/T partnership of this sort is very workable and usually very successful.
I will leave things at this for the present, but will be hoping to hear
>from you soon.  As you know, a Lepanto opening can very easily be turned
into something that only *looked* anti-Turkish, and with the assembly of
players we have here, misdirection will be essential.  Even if you are not
ready at this early stage to commit to an active partnership, I wished you
to know that my intentions do lie in the sea and I hope that this meets with
your agreement.

Manus

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Vittorio, Joe, etc.,
>
Who?  Oh yeah, me....  :-)

> So Turkey is the first victim, with your Lepanto, probably my opening
> strong and ugly into the Black Sea, and (we hope) Austria moving to
> surround Bulgaria.
>
Sounds good to me.

> I have no 'line' in particular for you to let out, but let's not make it
> appear that we are working too closely.
>
Definitely agreed.

> The only really bad problem we
> could have (the only one I could have in the *south*) is if we drive Turkey
> and Austria together and everything gets blocked and stuffed up. Yuck.
>
I have written Austria saying that my whole energies will be committed to
stopping the juggernaut, and asking his help against Turkey (since this is
the only front I can create against R/T).

What I would like to propose is that you also independently approach Austria
with anti-Turkish intentions.  Hopefully we can get him thinking that both
of us want his help against Turkey but for different reasons, and we can let
him be the one who "accidentally" brings an R/I/A alliance together.
(Temporarily, as you said.)  I think it would not be a good idea for either
of us to contact him and say, "there is an R/I partnership; do you want in?"
Rather, if each of us seek his help against Turkey without apparent knowledge
of the other, we will both stand in better stead with him.

> Oh, well, following a Grand Plan by Edi, he sailed west, then panicked when
> it looked like he wouldn't get any French centers right away and Edi was
> growing, so he did an about face with just his four units and headed back
> east. This doomed him to a weak game, of course (as westward Italian
> openings usually do in games with strong players, huh?).
>
Indeed so.  I really like the *idea* of Italy opening and committing west,
and someday I'll get it to work.  This is definitely not the day, though.

> What do you think about trying to add a partner to this alliance? Or even
> two? Northerners? Or maybe add France, and a temporary Austria?
>
I will set up the standard western DMZ with France and will hint strongly that
I would appreciate him heading north.  If you (again, perhaps independently
at first) talk anti-E with him, I think we can get the game off to a good
start for us.  (I favor independent approaches at first, but in France's case
[as opposed to Austria], I think that it would not be too long before we three
could acknowledge a tripartite alliance among ourselves.  But if France is
already committed to something else, the chance of us finding out is greater
if we initially approach him without any hint of an I/R.)

> could be something as simple as Ganging Up on the WItches, then F+R take on
> Germany and I+R take on Austria, and then the three of us duke it out in
> the ending.... Not that I expect any plan made in this opening to actually
> get played out in practice, not with these characters on the loose.
>
:-)  Very good point.

Manus

Message from Germany to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Hi, Jamie.  We are neighbors again.  As for me, no agreement is more
welcome or easier to respect than to keep things quiet on our front.
Anything else is mutual suicide.  You have my full approval in regard to
bringing religion and civilization to the Swedes.

John, Germany
(persona still in development)

Message from Germany to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Test

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

Hello!

I don't plan to do anything stupid like open to the west.  I imagine you
don't plan to open to the east either, yes?  I am writing to propose that
we make the normal promises to each other to avoid that whole area
altogether.  My intention is to become the sea power in the Med, and I am
interested in partnership with anyone who is happy with that.  Your nation
is a natural choice, since we are so close and yet terms of friendship are
so easily found.

I realize that your initial year will most likely be spent in the friendly
effort of acquiring neutral centers, but when 1902 rolls around and you
have some idea of your leanings in the power structures of the continent,
you can count on me to leave your back unmolested while you foray into,
say, England or Germany.  In addition to providing you with diplomatic cover
by laying "lines" for you, military assistance from the eastern side of
Switzerland may also be a possibility (although I too have no set plans,
so I have no idea whether I will actually be in any position to offer such
help).  My point, though, is that you can be sure to count me as a friend,
and I am hoping to hear the same from you.

I believe an F/I disagreement is completely counterproductive.  We both
have much better things to do, and if we get wrapped up in a war (which
it will take both of us years even to set up for), the rest of the powers
on the board will certainly win it.

I look forward to working in partnership with you,
Manus

Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Ok, good.

What do you think about a Witch Hunt?
Depending on how Cal and Hohn negotiate, of course. But I suspect it might
work out well, especially if I could get one southerner on my side. We
could try to have France see some Mediterranean trouble just as England
headed out the door, and maybe go into an ending with three of us (you, me,
unknown southerner) leading the race. If it does shape up as FG vs E, I'd
be happy to take Norway and let you two fight over the rest.

Well, probably too early for such thoughts. But in any case, I'll work on
gaining a promising southern partner, of course.

Jamie (I'll try to have a persona tomorrow, too.)

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

Hello from the warmer waters down south!  Although we're distant, we're
also very much alike.  My interests, like yours, lie in the sea, with
my intention being to establish myself as the single sea power in the
Mediterranean.

I am writing you to say that I bear you no ill will and to offer my
assistance to you in any form you may find it useful.  With a Frenchman and
a German between us, we may find need to communicate things either them him
or from them.  Since I am interested in the survival of England (since your
conquest would most likely mean fleets get built in France rather than in
England), you can count on me to keep you posted with any anti-English
rumblings I may happen to hear.  And if you wish (after the initial year's
worth of friendly neutral-grabbing) to make your seapower begin to pay
dividends with some SC's along certain coasts, I will prove to be a useful
partner to you there as well.  Once my hold on the Med is established, I may
also be looking for SC's along certain coasts, so an active military
partnership may be in the offing.  This, of course, is so far down the road
that it makes no sense to even mention it, since in a game with the caliber of
players we have here, any plan, especially this early, stands no chance of
being executed without changes.  However, I can pledge to you that I will
at least be useful to you as a diplomat, beginning right away if you wish,
so if you have any tasks along those lines that you wish to set me to, I will
use any friendly relationship I have with a power to your benefit.

Rule Britannia!  Brittania Rule the (Atlantic) Waves!
Manus

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>I have written Austria saying that my whole energies will be committed to
>stopping the juggernaut, and asking his help against Turkey (since this is
>the only front I can create against R/T).

Ugh. Giving him another possible approach: while allowing you to control
Turkey, he tries for an early incursion into Russia with his armies.
Oh well, I'll see what I can do. I agree that it would not be wise to
advertise that R/I are tight and seek a third to exterminate Turkey. But
possibly Austria himself will suggest that he and I try to get you to help
*us* out, or he might suggest to you that you guys could get me to help....

>What I would like to propose is that you also independently approach Austria
>with anti-Turkish intentions.

Yeah. I'm going to have to be a little careful with that, as I hint above.
I don't want him thinking, "Hey, Italy goes Lepanto and Russia and Turkey
are fighting, I'll take the easy overland route instead of bashing my head
against the Bosphorus." Also, as I said earlier, I don't know anything
about either of these guys (Cyrille, Stephen).
Anyway, I'll keep you posted on my approach as it develops.


>I will set up the standard western DMZ with France and will hint strongly that
>I would appreciate him heading north.  If you (again, perhaps independently
>at first) talk anti-E with him, I think we can get the game off to a good
>start for us.  (I favor independent approaches at first, but in France's case
>[as opposed to Austria], I think that it would not be too long before we three
>could acknowledge a tripartite alliance among ourselves.  But if France is
>already committed to something else, the chance of us finding out is greater
>if we initially approach him without any hint of an I/R.)

True.
Ok, maybe we should try it this way. We'll hope to get either France or
Germany as our third partner, but we don't much care which. If it's France,
then the plan would be for him and me to gang up on Germany, and you and me
to gang up on Austria (after the Witches are on the ropes). If it's
Germany, then the plan would be you and G against France, and you and me
against Austria.

Again, these best laid plans.... But I do think it's in my interest for the
ruling northern coalition to be FG.

Later,
Jamie

Message from Germany to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

What's a Witch-hunt?

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Ugh. Giving him another possible approach: while allowing you to control
> Turkey, he tries for an early incursion into Russia with his armies.
>
Well, I plan to engineer it so that this does not happen, of course.
Naturally, I consider him attacking you a better thing than him attacking
me :-) but of course I am not about trying to get this to happen.  From
my position, though, I'm sure that you would also use anti-jug as a
reason to convince Austria of friendly intent.

> Oh well, I'll see what I can do. I agree that it would not be wise to
> advertise that R/I are tight and seek a third to exterminate Turkey. But
> possibly Austria himself will suggest that he and I try to get you to help
> *us* out, or he might suggest to you that you guys could get me to help....
>
Precisely; this is exactly what I am after.  I want an R/I/A, but I want
it to be his idea.  If you are worried that Cyrille will be tempted to lean
towards an A/I rather than an R/I/A, then I am more than happy, when this
risk gets too apparent or great, to be the one to write him with how much
I love this-or-that Russian press that I just got, and say that an A/I/R
alliance is the way to go.

> Yeah. I'm going to have to be a little careful with that, as I hint above.
> I don't want him thinking, "Hey, Italy goes Lepanto and Russia and Turkey
> are fighting, I'll take the easy overland route instead of bashing my head
> against the Bosphorus." Also, as I said earlier, I don't know anything
> about either of these guys (Cyrille, Stephen).
>
Ditto here.  I don't know if I met Cyrille in Goteborg, and I've never even
heard of Stephen.

> Again, these best laid plans.... But I do think it's in my interest for the
> ruling northern coalition to be FG.
>
I concur.

I will keep you posted, and I want you to know that if you are disheartened
by my early efforts in our behalf, you need not be.  Between us, we will
get the Austrian to behave properly.

Manus

Message from Italy to Austria and Germany in

'pouchtoo':

Greetings, Austria and Germany!

I have already written to Austria to begin discussing the sticky situation of
Venice and Trieste, but this is my first message to Germany.  Austria, I hope
you will not mind that before getting to the business of this letter, I take
a quick minute to offer my personal hello to the German.  Herr Kaiser, we in
Italy have always had a fondness for things German.  Braunschweiger and
liverwurst spring immediately to mind, as does that excellent beer you brew
up there.  A friendly relationship with your nation is eagerly sought by
Italy.

Speaking of food, as everyone knows, Italian sausage, Vienna sausage, and
Bratwurst are so closely related that it is only natural for Germany, Italy,
and Austria to work in natural partnership.

Since I can see no reason for any of us to enter Tyrolia, I am writing to
propose that none of us ever do so.  At least not without prior warning.
The only possible reason I can even come up with for an entry into Tyrolia
would be if one of my armies needed to be made a path towards Russia.
However, since I am intent on becoming a naval power, such a need will
most likely not arise for a good long time, and hopefully you two will not
find any difficulty that requires you to ask for that kind of assistance
>from me.

The way I see it, therefore, any entry into Tyrolia is an obvious belligerent
act, and so if we all three acknowledge this up front and recognize that any
disagreement here in the middle of the board will only serve to benefit the
edges of the board, we can all cross Tyrolia off our list of things to worry
about, and can concentrate on the more important matters of actually expanding
our little area outwardly FROM the middle of the board.

I look forward to working with you both,
Manus

Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Witch = "Wicked Witch of the West" = England.
You never heard this terminology? England and Turkey are the Witches (of
the West and East) because they occupy the corner positions.

I meant, GF vs E, with maybe some help from me.

Jamie

Message from Germany to Austria and Italy in

'pouchtoo':

I have no plans or desires to enter Tyrolia, so I welcome Italy's
suggestion.  Looking forward to a successful friendship with both of you.

John of Germany

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

No worries, I'm sure we'll work it out as things progress.

Jamie

Message from France to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Jamie (or should that be "Gentle Tsar Jamie"? :) ),

> Message from [email protected] as Russia to France in 'pouchtoo':
> Afternoon, Hohn. Or morning, I suppose, to you.
> I seem to have these two unknowns on my flank in the south. For that
> reason, I am inclined to play a southern opening. You can feel free to pass
> that intelligence around if you like.

Thanks for the info.  I know nothing of Cyrille, but Steve Cooley is
one of the most brutal FTF and PBM Dippers around.  I've crossed
blocks with him _many_ times, and he has bested me more often than
not, by my estimates.  He has an uncanny way of slipping out of almost
any trap, and even when people gang up on him, he has a way of getting
others to come to his aid.  Him playing Turkey, with Turkey's inherent
defensibility and staying power, worries me significantly.

In short, I'd be all in favor of you taking the axe to him. ;)

> In the north, I am hoping that you and I can have a kind of Mutual Aid
> society, in the event of an aggressive EG pairing in the opening. And maybe
> we could try to cook up some unusual largish alliance, in the spirit of
> Demonstration and all -- anyway keep it in mind, maybe something will leap
> out at you.

This sounds ideal.  I'd love to work with at least one of them, but if
the two of them band together, it can't spell good news for either of
us.  I'm in.

Do you have a preference whether I work with F or G, out of curiosity?
No promises, obviously, but if all other things are equal, I'd give
due weight to your preferences.  Please let me know.

I'll let you know if I hear anything.  Take care!

Hohn

Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Dear Manus,

It's a pleasure to play in a game with you!  At the risk of sounding
obsequious, I have heard only good things about you, and hope that we
can at the very least forge an initial alliance, even if that may or
may not turn into something more substantial by the end of the game.

I am completely in agreement with you regarding the futility and
counter-productiveness of early FI hostilities, and agree to peace and
initial alliance.  We can provide each other with at least one safe
border, and I'm all in favor of that.

Shall we set up neutral zones?  Perhaps, neither of us moving into
PIE, GOL, WES, NAF, or TYS, without prior approval from the other?  No
fleets built in MAR or ROM without prior approval from the other?
What do you think?

As for me, I'd obviously like to work with either E or G.  I suspect
you'd prefer me working with G rather than E, hmm? ;) How about
yourself?  Any early word from the east?

Take care, and I look forward to hearing from you again.

Hohn

Message from France to England in 'pouchtoo':

Hey Buddy,

No hard feelings from last game, I hope? :)

Anyway, I'd love to be able to work with you from the _start_ this
game; I think we got off to the wrong foot, and then circumstances and
geography kind of threw us together and then apart again.  I think you
know I _can_ make a good ally, and that EF is one of the better ones
on the board.

For starters, shall we do the traditional neutral zone in ENG?  And no
fleets built in LVP, and fleets in BRE or LON only with prior approval
>from the other?  How shall we resolve the Belgian question?  I'm more
than open to proposals or suggestions.

I look forward to hearing from you.  Take care!

Hohn

Message from France to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

John,

Well, it looks like we're in a much better position to do some early
negotiation and dealing in this game, as opposed to last one!  I'm
happy to get France, it's my favorite country to play.

What do you think?  I love the FG alliance, simply because it's so
rare, but so powerful if done correctly.  Would you be willing to go
for that?  Or perhaps a three-way?  Obviously, I'd prefer not to get
into the all-too-common FG slugfest that often results in an early
stalemate and stagnation.

What would you like to do?  What do you think we should do about BEL?
Please note that regarding BUR, I will definitely be sending
_something_ there, as the province is so critical to my own defense
(it's the gateway to my nation, as you know), but I'm amenable to the
idea of bouncing there, if that's what you'd prefer.  I hope you're OK
with that; I have no offensive designs from BUR, it's strictly a
protective measure.

Please let me know what you think.  I don't think Russia will be
headed your way, btw.  What do you think about SWE?  I'd be curious to
know, if you're inclined to tell me. :)

I look forward to hearing from you.

Hohn

Message from France to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Hey Buddy!

Good to get into a PBEM game with you!  With you in Turkey and me in
France, it should be an interesting game, eh?

We might not have much to talk about now, game-wise, but I'll let you
know if I hear anything.  I hope you'll do the same.  Until then,
maybe we can meet in the middle somewhere, down the road. :)

Take care!

Hohn

Message from France to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Dear Cyrille:

It's a pleasure to meet you.  Although I've never played with you
before, your reputation precedes you, and I look forward to a great
game.  We might not have _too_ much to talk about at this stage in the
game, but I certainly have only positive thoughts for the Austrian
nation and people at this time.  I'll let you know if I hear anything
in the east.  I hope you'll do the same for me in the west.

As it stands, please let me know if you have any interesting proposals
whereby we could work together early.  Otherwise, I'll probably just
snag my early neutrals and react from there.  Take care, and again,
it's good to meet you.

Hohn

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

> It's a pleasure to play in a game with you!  At the risk of sounding
> obsequious, I have heard only good things about you,
>
Aw, shucks (blush).  [Who are you getting this from?  I want to know who
is going to be asking me for money! :-)]

> and hope that we
> can at the very least forge an initial alliance, even if that may or
> may not turn into something more substantial by the end of the game.
>
I see no reason not to.  It seems we are off to a very good start.  As
to the terms you propose, I would like to suggest only one little
change, and that would simply be that TYS be excluded from the DMZ.
I envision that I may find need or desire to station a fleet in the
Tyrrhenian, if for no other reason than to misdirect others as to my
intentions or (God forbid, or perhaps by arrangement) to bounce things
out of the Western Med.  I plan to open to ION, so it is no immediate
concern, but I would like to reserve my privileges in TYS.  I can, however,
pledge to make a good-faith effort to inform you before any move I make
into the TYS, however.

I am fine with the agreement not to build fleets in Mar or Rom without
approval.  If I am at all successful in becoming a naval power down here,
it may be that someday I will find reason to seek your approval, and I
am confident that my behavior will be such that you will have no problem
granting it.

> As for me, I'd obviously like to work with either E or G.  I suspect
> you'd prefer me working with G rather than E, hmm? ;)
>
Actually, it doesn't matter at all to me.  As a naval power, I see benefits
>from you working with England, in that you will not be building fleets that
might perhaps have nowhere to go after England is disposed of.  From this
point of view, I would rather see new fleets appear at Edinburgh than at
Brest.

On the other hand, if you are occupied with an attack on England rather
than Germany, I won't have as many foreign armies nearby; no worries from
unfortunate German retreats from Munich, for example.  There are good
points and bad points for both, so do not make any decision for my benefit.
Whichever way you *do* decide, though, I will be happy to assist you.

> How about yourself?  Any early word from the east?
>
I have received the usual niceties from Russia and Germany, but that's it.
Germany agrees to a Tyrolia DMZ, and Russia is non-commitally friendly.

Talk to you soon,

Manus

Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,

My concern over TYS is basically because of TUN.  You'll note that I
obviously excluded TUN from the proposed neutral zones, for the same
reason I excluded SPA: they're important, strategic centers.  And I'd
hate to see Italian fleets in both TUN and TYS.

I'll tell you what.  I'd be amenable to excluding TYS from the neutral
zone arrangement, _provided that_ you only ever have one fleet total
in both TYS and TUN.  In other words, if you opt to go to TYS, that's
fine, so long as TUN is vacant.  And if you opt to have a fleet in
TUN, then TYS would be a neutral zone by default.

Hmm, the above seems horribly worded.  Am I being intelligible, I
hope?  Please let me know.

Regarding the E/G thing, I'll keep you posted.  Thanks for your
flexibility.

Hohn

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

Hohn:

I happily agree to your proposed clause to our agreement.  I will not
put a fleet into TYS without your approval at any time that there is
a fleet in Tunis.  When writing my last message, I simply didn't anticipate
ever putting a fleet in Tunis, but since it can indeed easily happen, I do
understand your concern and I gladly consent to your terms.

Gotta run home (already called the wife and said I was on my way) -- so I'll
talk to you later....

Manus

Message from Russia to France in 'pouchtoo':

Hohn,

Hm, thanks for the lowdown on Steve Cooley.
I kind of like alliances with really brutal, aggressive players. At least
you know what to expect.
But we'll see.


>Do you have a preference whether I work with F or G, out of curiosity?

I hope you will work with F, since you are, in fact, F.
I figure you know this, since otherwise you'd be getting really confusing
messages from the Judge about your attempted signons. :-)

No, I have no preference at the moment, but I figure I'll probably develop one.

Hm.
Well, in the abstract, I guess it's better for Russia if France and Germany
go on a witch hunt. That way you and I have a very clear common cause later:
putting the screws on Germany. And that's Jon.

So I guess that's my preference. :-)
But really, it depends on lots of things that aren't clear yet.

We'll discuss it later, right?

Jamie

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Afternoon, Cal.
>
>With no Edi to distract us, let's see if we can do a little better in the
>opening this game, eh?
>
>I would mainly like to see what I can do (offer?) to keep you from playing
>an anti-Russian opening. A fleet in Norway, rather than an army, maybe? I'd
>be willing to reciprocate in some reasonable way, of course.
>
>The other thing is that I'm mildly worried that Jon and Hohn will come out
>swinging hard, to the detriment of the balance of power (and of you in
>particular!). I'd rather have England plus XXX be the primary allies in the
>north than Germany plus France. So that's another common interest.


Man!  That was hard!  Not just typing "epouchtoo" as opposed to "ighodstoo",
but sending "press to r" instead of "e"!  Guess I've got some mental
adjustments to make, hey?  d:-})

I think we can certainly work together this game and probably in more ways
than just "you watch my back and I'll watch yours".

I tend to treat each game as a COMPLETELY separate entity and would have
problem working with either John or Hohn if it made sense to do so.  There's
even a little temptation to ally with former enemies just to be able to say
"I treat each game differently".

However, I never know just when I'm going to be believed when I make that
statement.  Hohn may end up think I'm just trying to sucker him and hence
attack first.  Also, I'm sure he and John will also feel a temptation to
ally as former enemies who shared in the ghodstoo draw.

What this boils down to, from the English point of view, is that I am
worried that F/G WILL decide to work together and make crumpets of out me
(again).  Therefore, I would be interested in discussing an active alliance
between us with Germany as the first target.  I know Russia has more
immediate concerns regarding her southern neighbours, so your answer will be
dependent upon that, but I'm throwing it out for discussion.  If you're
interested, we can talk over the generalities and details.

ttyl

King Kal

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Hello from the warmer waters down south!  Although we're distant, we're
>also very much alike.  My interests, like yours, lie in the sea, with
>my intention being to establish myself as the single sea power in the
>Mediterranean.
>
>I am writing you to say that I bear you no ill will and to offer my
>assistance to you in any form you may find it useful.  With a Frenchman and
>a German between us, we may find need to communicate things either them him
>or from them.  Since I am interested in the survival of England (since your
>conquest would most likely mean fleets get built in France rather than in
>England), you can count on me to keep you posted with any anti-English
>rumblings I may happen to hear.  And if you wish (after the initial year's
>worth of friendly neutral-grabbing) to make your seapower begin to pay
>dividends with some SC's along certain coasts, I will prove to be a useful
>partner to you there as well.  Once my hold on the Med is established, I
may
>also be looking for SC's along certain coasts, so an active military
>partnership may be in the offing.  This, of course, is so far down the road
>that it makes no sense to even mention it, since in a game with the caliber
of
>players we have here, any plan, especially this early, stands no chance of
>being executed without changes.  However, I can pledge to you that I will
>at least be useful to you as a diplomat, beginning right away if you wish,
>so if you have any tasks along those lines that you wish to set me to, I
will
>use any friendly relationship I have with a power to your benefit.
>
>Rule Britannia!  Brittania Rule the (Atlantic) Waves!
>Manus

Hi Manus!  Nice to get in a game with you.  :)

I have no problems with your, um, shall we say "speculations" above.  In
fact, I have long believed that E/I is one of the strongest teams on the
board and I would have no problem making plans for the longer term.  We are
certainly no threat to each other and have no conceivable need to clash
until end game (if even then - E/I are in a great position to force a two
way draw).

You'll want to see to your eastern concerns for the first turn or so, I
suspect, but we can keep an eye out for mutual opportunites for cooperation
after that.  Those "SC's along certain coasts" will be under constant
scrutiny, no doubt...

In the meantime, I would appreciate any rumours you can pick up regarding
France & Germany's respective attitudes towards each other.  Naturally, it
behooves me to promote discord between them and any words to that effect
would appreciated.

Viva Italia!

King Kal

Message from England to France in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as France to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Hey Buddy,
>
>No hard feelings from last game, I hope? :)


Heck no!  I make a point of treating each game as separate and anyway, in a
game of this calibre, one can't afford to go in thinking "I can't work with
that so-and-so who stabbed me last game" cause the chances are that attitude
will lead to an early exit.  I'd like to be around a bit longer THIS game,
thank you!  :)

>Anyway, I'd love to be able to work with you from the _start_ this
>game; I think we got off to the wrong foot, and then circumstances and
>geography kind of threw us together and then apart again.  I think you
>know I _can_ make a good ally, and that EF is one of the better ones
>on the board.


I think we proved we can work well together and coordinate tactics and
strategies.  I'd like a chance to do it when I'm not forced to leave my back
open to your knife hand... heh heh.

>For starters, shall we do the traditional neutral zone in ENG?  And no
>fleets built in LVP, and fleets in BRE or LON only with prior approval
>from the other?  How shall we resolve the Belgian question?  I'm more
>than open to proposals or suggestions.


I have no problem with those conditions regarding neutral zones and builds.
Soooo, if we're going to work together, presumably we're going to target
Germany?  If that's the case, I'd like to keep Belgium for myself.  You can
manage two builds anyway with Spain & Portugal and if England also builds
two, we'd have the upper hand right from the start.  How does this sound to
you?

I'm definitely looking forward to this game.  d:-})


King Kal

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Hi John!

Maybe THIS time we can get off on the right foot!  :)

It would be nice to find out what we can do together as allies if we try it
right from the start of the game.  It helps that I consider E/G the 1st or
2nd strongest alliance on the board.  We have our choice of initial and
secondary targets and we don't ever need to get in each other's way.  I can
stick to fleets and you can stick to armies and never the twain shall meet
(at least until end game - if even then as a two way draw is a pretty decent
result).

If you're interested, I wouldn't mind coordinating an attack on France.  I
hold no grudges from game to game and certainly bear Hohn no ill will for
ghodstoo, but I do consider him a capable and dangerous player who should be
dealt with immediately.  Your comments are certainly invited.

Talk to you soon.

Cal

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

Kal,

>I tend to treat each game as a COMPLETELY separate entity and would have
>problem working with either John or Hohn if it made sense to do so.  There's
>even a little temptation to ally with former enemies just to be able to say
>"I treat each game differently".

Sure, me too.
Unless you mean that you try to forget what you learned about the players
in earlier games. That I would never do! And from what I learned about Hohn
and Jon, facing the pair of them would be very frightening.

>What this boils down to, from the English point of view, is that I am
>worried that F/G WILL decide to work together and make crumpets of out me
>(again).  Therefore, I would be interested in discussing an active alliance
>between us with Germany as the first target.  I know Russia has more
>immediate concerns regarding her southern neighbours, so your answer will be
>dependent upon that, but I'm throwing it out for discussion.  If you're
>interested, we can talk over the generalities and details.

Right.
Well, as you suspect, I am at the moment fairly concerned about the south.
I've heard from Italy, but not from either of my southern neighbors.
Probably just a matter of taking them a little time to steel their nerves
to face the Judge! But I'm still concerned.

Here is an idea. If I can get Turkey to believe that Italy is going to play
a Lepanto opening (which I am almost sure he is, by the way), then I figure
Turkey will not bother me, and then I'd feel more comfortable playing more
aggressively in the north.
If you talk to Turkey, would you mention that Italy is going to play
Lepanto? You could say you discussed France with Italy and he begged off
saying that he would be too busy playing Lepanto, or something like that.
Since Italy *is* going to play Lepanto, this would leave you on pretty good
terms with Turkey later, since you'd be the one who'd warned him.

What do you think?


Jamie

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

>Sure, me too.
>Unless you mean that you try to forget what you learned about the players
>in earlier games. That I would never do! And from what I learned about Hohn
>and Jon, facing the pair of them would be very frightening.


I said I was fair-minded, not stupid!  :)

>Well, as you suspect, I am at the moment fairly concerned about the south.
>I've heard from Italy, but not from either of my southern neighbors.
>Probably just a matter of taking them a little time to steel their nerves
>to face the Judge! But I'm still concerned.
>
>Here is an idea. If I can get Turkey to believe that Italy is going to play
>a Lepanto opening (which I am almost sure he is, by the way), then I figure
>Turkey will not bother me, and then I'd feel more comfortable playing more
>aggressively in the north.
>If you talk to Turkey, would you mention that Italy is going to play
>Lepanto? You could say you discussed France with Italy and he begged off
>saying that he would be too busy playing Lepanto, or something like that.
>Since Italy *is* going to play Lepanto, this would leave you on pretty good
>terms with Turkey later, since you'd be the one who'd warned him.


Seems like a plan to me.  I'll do that and gauge his reaction.  I'll
probably sound him out as to an attack on you and see how receptive he is.
I'll pass along any willingness on his part.  As you know, forewarned is
fourlegged or something like that...

Keep in touch.

King Kal

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

King Kal:

Thank you for your response to my mail.  It is indeed nice to face you over
a (virtual) board!  I concur that E/I is a great pair, well-suited to
mutual cooperation, even to the point of a two-way.

You are correct that the east will be my first concern, but like you, I will
have my eyes open to check "certain" other coasts.

As for intelligence received from France and Germany, I have little for you
at this point.  France and I have set up the usual western Med DMZ, and
Germany has written but briefly to agree to a Tyrolia DMZ.  As far as what
they are saying about you, Germany had no foreign policy to expouse, and
France said that he will be deciding which of you or Germany to team with.
He asked me which I would prefer him to join, saying he imagined that I
would rather see an F/G against you up there in England, but I wrote back
and said that he should not make any decision for my benefit, and pointing
out that his estimation was not correct, since (as I pointed out to you)
an eliminated England means fleet builds in Marseilles and Brest rather
than in Edinburgh and London.  I do not think he leans any particular
direction yet, mostly because as I understand it, he had yet even to speak
with you or Germany.

Needless to say, though, my own interests are not well served if you three
set up a western triple.  France didn't seem to have such a thing on his mind,
but then of course he wouldn't let on to me if he did.  But from my point of
view, I would dearly love to see a two-on-one between you three, to keep
France busy with something other than my precious homeland.

As for which configuration of a two-on-one would be nice, I frankly
would like to see you on the "two" side, for the same reason that centers
on which shipbuilders will be employed in the long-term.

Must run -- I'll keep you informed, and ask that you do the same....

Manus

Message from England to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Hi Steve!  So we finally meet across a Dip board, eh?  Should be fun.

I think we should be able to manage some sort of mutual cooperation here.
As you know, the Wicked Witches usually prosper or fall together, so it's in
our best interests to help each other out as much as we can.

Should you have any interest in the downfall of, say a certain northern
neighbour of yours, I think we could have some things to discuss.  Your
comments will be welcome.

Meantime, should I hear anything that might be of interest to you, I'll pass
it along.  I'd like to establish a good communication between us as it will
certainly be of use as the game progresses.  Hopefully, you'll reciprocate.
I'd be most interested in any impressions you can pick up of the chances of
Franco-German cooperation against your friendly neighbourhood English
monarch.

Talk to you later

"King Kal"

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

>Seems like a plan to me.  I'll do that and gauge his reaction.  I'll
>probably sound him out as to an attack on you and see how receptive he is.
>I'll pass along any willingness on his part.  As you know, forewarned is
>fourlegged or something like that...

When you 'sound him out', don't actually suggest that the two of you could
combine to attack me, ok? Not that I think you would attack me, but he
might, and I don't want him to think I might be especially vulnerable.

Jamie

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

Cal,

Re going against France, in general, I'd be disinclined to commit to such a
thing in the first year.  FG war right off is not usually good for Germany.
I'd become too tempting a target for my other neighbors.  But Hohn has
guaranteed he's going to order an army to Burgundy, so he might be forcing
me to it.  So, I am more open than I would usually be to discussing
anti-France action.

Signs point to Russia moving south, FYI.  I'll inform you if anything
contradicts this early impression.

John

Message from Germany to France in 'pouchtoo':

Hohn,

I hope we can do business.  I must say that I am a bit troubled by your
firm intention to order a unit to Burgundy.  It seems to me that such a
decision ought to await at least some discussion between us.  But I do
understand your concerns.  My problem, of course, is that I almost have to
bounce, which immobilizes one of my units for the Spring turn.  If we are
to work together, wouldn't you prefer that I make the strongest move
possible?

That said, it does remain possible for me to move strongly, then defend
Munich in the Fall if it appears you are against me.  Therefore, I can see
my way to accepting a French army in Burgundy.  However, I'd like for you
to help me into  Belgium to take some of the sting out of it. Then, I'd
even welcome the army in Burgundy.  It would also be the best possible sign
of our prospects for future cooperation.  Whichever way we go from there,
I'll be well positioned to ensure our future success.

Whatever comes of our negotiations, I also want above all else to avoid the
F-G war of attrition that only sets Germany up for an early exit.

I have reassured Russia that I will not block his capture of Sweden.  I
have rarely seen Germany do that, so it's a pretty conventional thing to
promise.  Naturally, my orders are subject to change but I see no reason at
this point to strengthen England's hand to that extent, or to wreck
Russia's chances of holding off his enemies in the south, so early in the
game.

John of Germany

Message from France to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

John,

> I hope we can do business.  I must say that I am a bit troubled by your
> firm intention to order a unit to Burgundy.  It seems to me that such a
> decision ought to await at least some discussion between us.

I'm sorry you're troubled.  The reason I told you in this fashion is
because I am an up-front person, and I vastly prefer honesty rather
than pointless lies.

Realistically speaking, there is next to nothing you can do to
convince me _not_ to go to BUR, so I wanted to make sure that was
known from the outset.  If I don't go there, and you stab, my game is
close to over.  Not immediately, but the type of comeback that you
staged last game after losing BUR immediately is extremely rare (and I
compliment you whole-heartedly on that comeback).

If this inflexibility on my end regarding something that I consider to
be of paramount importance to the defense of my nation will make it
difficult for the two of us to work together, then I'm sorry to hear
it, but if that's how it's got to be, that's how it's got to be.

To be honest, I seldom have major problems with German players
regarding this course of action.  If you want to bounce, that's fine,
as I said.  Although to be honest, it makes more tactical sense, IMO,
for me to go to BUR and you to go to RUH or something.  That way, you
could always go back to MUN to bounce me if you fear treachery, but
more importantly, we could do something together in BEL that we both
can benefit from.  See below.

> But I do
> understand your concerns.  My problem, of course, is that I almost have to
> bounce, which immobilizes one of my units for the Spring turn.  If we are
> to work together, wouldn't you prefer that I make the strongest move
> possible?

Yes, so long as it doesn't leave me wide open.  The only German center
that BUR borders is MUN.  You can cover it in Fall if you fear
treachery.  I don't think my moving into BUR should necessarily
prevent you from making the strongest move possible.

> That said, it does remain possible for me to move strongly, then defend
> Munich in the Fall if it appears you are against me.

Whoops.  Yes, that should teach me to re-read the whole message again
before responding.  :)  You're obviously correct, as I needlessly
repeat above.

> Therefore, I can see
> my way to accepting a French army in Burgundy.  However, I'd like for you
> to help me into  Belgium to take some of the sting out of it. Then, I'd
> even welcome the army in Burgundy.  It would also be the best possible sign
> of our prospects for future cooperation.  Whichever way we go from there,
> I'll be well positioned to ensure our future success.

I'd be receptive to supporting you into BEL, depending on how you want
to address the English issue.

> Whatever comes of our negotiations, I also want above all else to avoid the
> F-G war of attrition that only sets Germany up for an early exit.

I'd like to avoid that as well, as it also makes me stagnate, if not
die.

> I have reassured Russia that I will not block his capture of Sweden.  I
> have rarely seen Germany do that, so it's a pretty conventional thing to
> promise.  Naturally, my orders are subject to change but I see no reason at
> this point to strengthen England's hand to that extent, or to wreck
> Russia's chances of holding off his enemies in the south, so early in the
> game.

Interesting.  With Steve Cooley in Turkey, I think I'm probably in
favor of Russia gaining SWE this year, anyway.  :)

How do you want to deal with England?  Neutrality?  Full-bore attack?
Three-way alliance?

Hohn

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>
>
>>Seems like a plan to me.  I'll do that and gauge his reaction.  I'll
>>probably sound him out as to an attack on you and see how receptive he is.
>>I'll pass along any willingness on his part.  As you know, forewarned is
>>fourlegged or something like that...
>
>When you 'sound him out', don't actually suggest that the two of you could
>combine to attack me, ok? Not that I think you would attack me, but he
>might, and I don't want him to think I might be especially vulnerable.


I figured I would ask for a reaction and then tell him later that "western
concerns" lead me away from any northern attack.

Fair enough?

Cal

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Cal,
>
>Re going against France, in general, I'd be disinclined to commit to such a
>thing in the first year.  FG war right off is not usually good for Germany.
>I'd become too tempting a target for my other neighbors.  But Hohn has
>guaranteed he's going to order an army to Burgundy, so he might be forcing
>me to it.  So, I am more open than I would usually be to discussing
>anti-France action.


Okay, see what you think and let me know.

>Signs point to Russia moving south, FYI.  I'll inform you if anything
>contradicts this early impression.


That's a good thing to know and I got the same impression from Jamie.

ttyl

Cal

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

>I figured I would ask for a reaction and then tell him later that "western
>concerns" lead me away from any northern attack.

I thought you must be planning something like that.

>Fair enough?

Yes.
Only make sure you 'tell him later' pretty soon, so he doesn't go making
any big plans which he then feels he doesn't really have time or
inclination to change, if you see what I mean.

Anyway, I think if you mention to him that Italy is planning a Lepanto,
that ought to do the trick for me.

Thanks,
Jamie

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>King Kal:
>
>Thank you for your response to my mail.  It is indeed nice to face you over
>a (virtual) board!  I concur that E/I is a great pair, well-suited to
>mutual cooperation, even to the point of a two-way.
>
>You are correct that the east will be my first concern, but like you, I
will
>have my eyes open to check "certain" other coasts.
>
>As for intelligence received from France and Germany, I have little for you
>at this point.  France and I have set up the usual western Med DMZ, and
>Germany has written but briefly to agree to a Tyrolia DMZ.  As far as what
>they are saying about you, Germany had no foreign policy to expouse, and
>France said that he will be deciding which of you or Germany to team with.
>He asked me which I would prefer him to join, saying he imagined that I
>would rather see an F/G against you up there in England, but I wrote back
>and said that he should not make any decision for my benefit, and pointing
>out that his estimation was not correct, since (as I pointed out to you)
>an eliminated England means fleet builds in Marseilles and Brest rather
>than in Edinburgh and London.  I do not think he leans any particular
>direction yet, mostly because as I understand it, he had yet even to speak
>with you or Germany.
>
>Needless to say, though, my own interests are not well served if you three
>set up a western triple.  France didn't seem to have such a thing on his
mind,
>but then of course he wouldn't let on to me if he did.  But from my point
of
>view, I would dearly love to see a two-on-one between you three, to keep
>France busy with something other than my precious homeland.
>
>As for which configuration of a two-on-one would be nice, I frankly
>would like to see you on the "two" side, for the same reason that centers
>on which shipbuilders will be employed in the long-term.
>
>Must run -- I'll keep you informed, and ask that you do the same....
>
>Manus

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

I got your message to me, but it consisted entirely of my message to you.  :-)

Manus

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

>As for intelligence received from France and Germany, I have little for you
>at this point.  France and I have set up the usual western Med DMZ, and
>Germany has written but briefly to agree to a Tyrolia DMZ.  As far as what
>they are saying about you, Germany had no foreign policy to expouse, and
>France said that he will be deciding which of you or Germany to team with.
>He asked me which I would prefer him to join, saying he imagined that I
>would rather see an F/G against you up there in England, but I wrote back
>and said that he should not make any decision for my benefit, and pointing
>out that his estimation was not correct, since (as I pointed out to you)
>an eliminated England means fleet builds in Marseilles and Brest rather
>than in Edinburgh and London.  I do not think he leans any particular
>direction yet, mostly because as I understand it, he had yet even to speak
>with you or Germany.


I've gotten the initial opening letters from France, Germany & Russia but no
followups to my replies yet so I don't have any tidbits for you.  Your info
above is quite welcome and valuable so I'll be looking to reciprocate as
soon as I hear anything of interest to you.

>Needless to say, though, my own interests are not well served if you three
>set up a western triple.  France didn't seem to have such a thing on his
mind,
>but then of course he wouldn't let on to me if he did.  But from my point
of
>view, I would dearly love to see a two-on-one between you three, to keep
>France busy with something other than my precious homeland.


I'm not a big fan of the western triple and prefer to avoid them.  So far,
no one has mentioned that possibility yet.  Personally, I'd prefer to be on
the attacking side of a 2 on 1.

>As for which configuration of a two-on-one would be nice, I frankly
>would like to see you on the "two" side, for the same reason that centers
>on which shipbuilders will be employed in the long-term.


Agreed.  I'll be in touch.

King Kal

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Sorry about that.  Key slipped... :)  You should have the real message by
now.

King Kal

>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>I got your message to me, but it consisted entirely of my message to you.
:-)
>
>Manus

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

> Sorry about that.  Key slipped... :)  You should have the real message by
> now.
>
:-)  Indeed I do, with thanks.

A bit more intelligence:  Turkey indicates to me that his preference is to
open strong north.  I don't know what your feelings are toward Russia, but
the Turk might be worth talking to no matter what.

I would appreciate it if you could perhaps work to confirm this for me.
Keeping Turkey off the waters is the first big thing I want.

Manus

Message from Italy to Master and Turkey in

'pouchtoo':

Mr. Master:  Just so you know, I responded to a bit of Turkish press sent
in private e-mail to me, but in doing so, I sent the message to the USIN
judge rather than USWI (a lapse in memory concerning which midwestern state
is hosting this game; and as a big Broncos fan, Wisconsin is not the top
of the list of things I'm in the habit of typing right now).

Well, I didn't save a copy of the message, and USIN has yet to bounce it
back to me (either it is down or -- more likely -- my mail aliases file
has the old address for USIN in it and the message is lost in the ether).

After the delay had grown a bit too long, I mailed Steve in private e-mail
telling him that I wasn't ignoring him and giving an abridged version of
my still-lost response.  In case it doesn't show up for me to forward to
him (and to you, you eavesdropper you) through the correct judge (though
Nathan, the cheesehead judgekeeper, may censor it now that he knows I'm a
die-hard Broncos fan), here is a VERY brief encapsulation for the time
capsule:

Sorry to have made myself misunderstood when I said my first move would look
Lepanto.  What I meant was that I hope no offense is taken by a S01 move
to ION and a possible move to Apu.  I am after control of the Med, not an
attack on Turkey.  I hope you commit your fleet to the Black Sea without
undue concern for my fleets.  Instead, I hope we [I/T] find cause to work
together.

Ever mindful of my place in history -- so the future generations can be
taught how to lose with grace and dignity, I am,

Manus

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Early word from Turkey is that he likes to open aggressively north when
playing that power.  Could be he just says that to all the pretty Italians,
and I'd appreciate your not revealing your knowledge of this little tidbit,
but for what it's worth, that's what he says.

Still have heard nothing from our World Champ down in Austria, who, as
has been said, "Rules!"  :-)

Manus

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>
>>I figured I would ask for a reaction and then tell him later that "western
>>concerns" lead me away from any northern attack.
>
>I thought you must be planning something like that.
>
>>Fair enough?
>
>Yes.
>Only make sure you 'tell him later' pretty soon, so he doesn't go making
>any big plans which he then feels he doesn't really have time or
>inclination to change, if you see what I mean.
>
>Anyway, I think if you mention to him that Italy is planning a Lepanto,
>that ought to do the trick for me.


No problem.  I plan to do both in my very next letter.

King Kal

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>> Sorry about that.  Key slipped... :)  You should have the real message by
>> now.
>>
>:-)  Indeed I do, with thanks.
>
>A bit more intelligence:  Turkey indicates to me that his preference is to
>open strong north.  I don't know what your feelings are toward Russia, but
>the Turk might be worth talking to no matter what.
>
>I would appreciate it if you could perhaps work to confirm this for me.
>Keeping Turkey off the waters is the first big thing I want.


I've sent mail to Turkey, but he hasn't answered yet.  Maybe he was the one
having problems with the Judge?  Anyway, I've already sounded him out about
his atitude toward Russia and I'll let you know what he says.

King Kal

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Thanks for the tidbit about Turkey. It doesn't worry me too much, since he
would presumably tell you that no matter what his actual plans. So the
information content is low.

I hope we hear, or one of us hears, from Austria soon. Maybe he's on one of
those endless European holidays.

I've had at least a short message from everyone else, and I feel moderately
comfortable about the North, so I'm ready for a southern opening.

Jamie

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Thanks for the tidbit about Turkey. It doesn't worry me too much, since he
> would presumably tell you that no matter what his actual plans. So the
> information content is low.
>
Indeed so.

> I hope we hear, or one of us hears, from Austria soon. Maybe he's on one of
> those endless European holidays.
>
Could be.  I've got a French DMZ, a Tyrolia DMZ with Germany, I've told
Turkey I'm opening to ION, a friendly exchange of hellos from England,
and I've got committment for a strong I/R.  But nothing from Austria.

> I've had at least a short message from everyone else, and I feel moderately
> comfortable about the North, so I'm ready for a southern opening.
>
Okay -- looks like we have a whole lot of time, though, before the
deadline so I'm with you in hoping Cyrille pops to life.  Especially if
we're headed for Turkey first.  If he doesn't, we may have to rethink
that plan.

Manus

Message from France to Austria, England, Germany, Italy,

Russia, Turkey and Master in 'pouchtoo':

No preference on the e-mail/press issue.

On another note, I'm going to be out of town until Sunday night.  I'll
respond to press upon my return.  Have a great weekend, everyone!

Hohn

Message from Austria to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Hi Manus,
sorry for answering so late, but I was abroad for my job. I hope you still do not have really choose on your strategy for the game.
I'm glad to hear you speak about your fleet game. It's also the way I'm playing Italy.
Of course, I heard about the key Lepanto. Edi Birsan told me about that. He plays it a few times, but always as Italy, I guess:-)
I mean, knowing almost nobody in the game, and really new to BPM games, I would prefer a smoother approach, saying a classic Lepanto, which I will be
 able to support with my F Gre, moving to Aeg, or supporting your fleet in it.
Of course, I will watch carefully to avoid a Juggernaut, and the best way to do it is to cooperate since now. If one of us attack the other one, at l
east before the end of turkey, it will be our common death.
The A/I ally is one of the strongest one in the board. As you suggest it, I will build armies while you build fleets. The crucial point is to leave a
 DMZ between us. I always play like that with my allies.
Simple but true: if you're far from your allies' dots, you just can't stab it, or at least very poorly.
that's why I suggest to leave both Trieste and Venice empty, considering also, and Germany seems to agree, tyrolia as a DMZ.
I will move East, while you move South-East, and hope this will lead us to a great game.

Waiting for your opinion, I wish you good luck for the game,

Cyrille (Austria)

Message from Austria to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Hi John,
I agree too about the DMZ in Tyrolia. More than that, I suggest we extend it in Bohemia (it's a crazy opening, but sometimes...).
It's also clear that the 3 central powers MUST cooperate, at least with a non-agression pact, in order to first survive, then try to extend.

I wish you good luck for the game,

Cyrille from Austria.

Message from Austria to France in 'pouchtoo':

Hi Hohn,
thanks for your sweet message. Even if I don't know most of the players in that game, I heard about some, and I guess it will be a nice one.
I'm sure of nothing since now, and I'd like Italy to be there to help me, to face a possible Juggernaut. In any case then, I will send him against yo
u. (well, when I say send, it means ask, of course:-).
I will probably open smoothly in that game, and wait to see what's happen.
Our common position should lead us to exchange informations, as far as it seems benefic for both of us of course.
At this moment, I have no informations about France indeed. Maybe you've some about Austria:-)?

Anyway, good luck,

Cyrille from Austria.

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Hi James,
sorry for answering so late, but I was abroad for my job. I hope you still do not have really choose on your strategy for the game.
As strong land powers, you should have some great opportunities. If we act together, we won't have many threats.
You're the one country on the board with the most oppotunities, maybe with Italy.
I'd like to play with you. If you say that you're not gonna move into Galicia, I won't go myself, letting you take surely Rumania. Do you plan to pla
y 2-2, or 3-1? Against Turkey, England, Germany, or even me?
Maybe you think I'm really agressive. I'm not, but it's true that, using to play FTF short games, I choose quickly an option. But then, I can be a ve
ry potent ally.
Waiting for your answer, I wish you Good luck for the game.

Cyrille from Austria.

Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Hello!  Good to hear from you.  I have no time to write just now (very
busy at work) but wanted to quickly respond and say that what you wrote
sounds fine with me.  I am committed to an I/A alliance because I agree
with you that anything else is suicide for us both.  Your idea to
immediately DMZ Trieste and Venice sounds good to me.

Must run.  More later....

Manus

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Dear Cyrille,

Glad to hear from you at last.

My plans are not set yet, don't worry.

I accept the agreement that neither of us will move to Galicia. And I would
generally like to work with you, too.

I think I will go 3-1, but if something comes up in the North at the last
minute I will go 2-2.

I am willing to go against Turkey right away, *if* I feel confident that
two conditions hold: (a) that you will also be attacking Turkey, and (b)
that you and Italy will be at peace. So I don't care whether Italy actually
attacks Turkey or instead sails westward, as long as he is not fighting
with you. I would like to be rid of Turkey and reduce the number of
neighbors I have to worry about, but I am not going to take him on alone.

Tell me when you have spoken to more of our neighbors (including Italy) and
you have a better idea of what you want to do. At that point, I suggest
that we might try to find some third power, a northwestern one, to join us
in a quiet 3-way alliance. In e-mail Diplomacy, since there is so much time
and opportunity to talk and make plans, I think it is a good idea to try to
"manage" the whole board, rather than to focus completely on local issues,
if you see what I mean. Big plans hardly ever work out the way you expect,
but it is useful to start them early anyway, in my experience.



Regards,
Jamie

Message from Germany to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

DMZ in Bohemia is fine with me.  I can't envision circumstances under which
I would want to violate that one.

Best of luck.

John

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Okay -- looks like we have a whole lot of time, though, before the
>deadline so I'm with you in hoping Cyrille pops to life.  Especially if
>we're headed for Turkey first.  If he doesn't, we may have to rethink
>that plan.

I thought that at first, but then I realized, there's really no chance that
this game will go forward without Cyrille's active participation. If he
doesn't pop up, Rick will replace him. It's a demo game. So we will
certainly have a chance to make plans with Austria before the move.

By the way, I am thinking I will attempt to convince Turkey that you are
going to play Lepanto. Is that ok?

Jamie

Message from Italy to Master in 'pouchtoo':

Got this in direct e-mail from Turkey.  For your files....

> From [email protected]  Thu Jan 22 12:33:02 1998
> From: "Steve Cooley" 
> To: "Manus \"Chico\" Hand" 
> Subject: Diplomacy notice: pouchtoo
> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:26:12 -0800
> Message-ID: <01bd275a$d5b83100$LocalHost@computer1>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
>
>
>
>
> >Manus,
> >
> >>I will be frank and honest with you.  My first move will likely look like
> a
> >Lepanto.  As Italy, my initial interest is in making sure that there is no
> >juggernaut (can you blame me?).  I am of the school that the best
> >partnerships are one sea power and one land power, and so I will be intent
> >to establish myself as the pre-eminent force in the Med.
> >
> >Well, no one can accuse you of being coy.  I must say I'm not thrilled
> about
> >you opening with a Lepanto.  That traditionally means trying to land an
> army
> >in my backdoor.  Is that what you mean to do?  I would certainly view any
> >movement by you into the Aeg or Eas as aggressive and war-causing.  I don't
> >blame you for being concerned about Turkey.  However, I tend to play it
> >aggressively, meaning I frequently go after Russia.  With you announcing
> >your intention to go east, that seems very foolish.
> >
> >I am more than willing to see if we can work something out--I am not
> opposed
> >to being the land end of an I-T--but I have to know what you mean by a
> >"Lepanto".
> >
> >Take care,
> >
> >Steve
>
>

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

I just heard from Cyrille.  He's encouraging an A/I alliance and a Lepanto.

> By the way, I am thinking I will attempt to convince Turkey that you are
> going to play Lepanto. Is that ok?
>
Okay; thanks for letting me know.

Sorry so short,
Manus

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Well, this game is certainly starting off with a resounding silence.  One
short letter from Germany, nothing from Turkey or Austria and little more
>from Italy or France.  Is it time to get paranoid?

Hohn's silence I can put down to his trip, so I hope to hear from him
shortly.  Germany did the same type of silent treatment early in ghodstoo,
so I guess his lack of communication isn't that unusual for John.

Turkey's silence is more puzzling as I've been told he HAS written to some
players.  Needless to say, I haven't gotten any reply to my inquiry about
his intentions towards you.  What I CAN tell you is what I've heard thru the
"grapevine".  That is, he is very much inclined to move north.  You might
want to watch your underbelly come Spring 1901.

And THAT, my friend, is all the news that's fit to print.

All quiet on the Russian front?

King Kal

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Hi John!

The silence in this game so far has been amazing.  Nobody is writing.
Wonder if it's time to start getting paranoid?

The only "news" to relate is a bit of gossip that has Turkey heading north
to Russia.  If it's true, you (or I) should have nothing fear from Jamie in
the early going.

Anything new on your end?  Any more thoughts on the E/G alliance?

King Kal

Message from England to France in 'pouchtoo':

Hi Hohn!  Hope your trip was enjoyable and also that you got more mail about
this game than I did.  Actually, maybe I shouldn't hope that.  I've had damn
near squat and I think it may be time to start getting paranoid... :)

With the lack of letter, I've precious little to report aside from the
rumour that Italy intends to attack Turkey in the early going.  Not that I
expected anything other than an eastern attack from Italy.  Can't imagine
anyone fool enough to open westwards, eh?  hmmm  :)

So, what's new on your end?  Any more thoughts on an anti-German stance?

King Kal

Co-Owner scoresheet-talk listserv

Imagine a dinner table set for a thousand guests, at which
each man is sitting between his own father and his own
son.  (We might just as well imagine a ladies banquet...)
[A]t one end of the table there might be a French Nobel
laureate in white tie and tails and with the Legion of Honor
on his breast, and at the other a Cro-Magnon man dressed
in animal skins and with a necklace of cave-bear teeth.
Yet every one would be able to converse with his neighbors
to his left and right, who would be either his father or his
son.  So the distance from then to now is not really very
great.

Bjorn Kurten (How To Deep-Freeze a Mammoth)

Message from Turkey to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Hi Jamie,
Why don't I take all of your centers?  That will make things simpler.  =
When you reply, I'll know I'm doing this right and get serious.
Lots o' luck
Steve.

Message from Russia to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

That was fine, except I think you had a little problem with your pronouns
in the text of the press.

To be more serious:
that '=' sign in the press below means, I think, that your email program is
not set to the right line length. But it doesn't seem to be a major problem.

Jamie

>Message from [email protected] as Turkey to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Hi Jamie,
>Why don't I take all of your centers?  That will make things simpler.  =
>When you reply, I'll know I'm doing this right and get serious.
>Lots o' luck
>Steve.

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

Kal,

Jon may have decided to be quiet until he hears more from Hohn.

Steve (Turkey) did not understand how to send press through the Judge; I
explained it to him and he's just tried it out by sending me some frivolous
press, but I expect he'll get down to business now.

Thanks for the tip about his moving north. It's quite possible that he
merely told Manus that so as to allay any Italian fears. (I'm assuming
that's how you got the news through the grapevine.)

I still plan to go three south, one north. I intend to get Sweden and
Rumania (big news, huh?).

Since I still have very little idea what Austria and Turkey are up to, I
can't be any more specific than that, but I imagine my plans will clarify
once I see the opening moves. I know, this is very uninformative, but
that's the extent of my plans so far.

I must say I am rather worried about a F/G combination. I will attempt to
have Manus as a strong ally, and possibly in that way have a little
influence -- he could in principle badger either the French or the Germans
if they are getting too ambitious. I hope you'll be on good terms with
Manus, too.

Fingers crossed,
Jamie

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

You are right. Hardly a word has arrived in my email box in days.  My read
is not paranoid, though.  I think everyone in our part of the world plans
to grab the easy ones and then see how things shake out.

What are your thoughts regarding Belgium?

German John

Message from France to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Jamie,

> Hm, thanks for the lowdown on Steve Cooley.
> I kind of like alliances with really brutal, aggressive players. At least
> you know what to expect.
> But we'll see.

Watch your back with him.

> >Do you have a preference whether I work with F or G, out of curiosity?
>
> I hope you will work with F, since you are, in fact, F.
> I figure you know this, since otherwise you'd be getting really confusing
> messages from the Judge about your attempted signons. :-)

Heh.  Whoops. ;)

> No, I have no preference at the moment, but I figure I'll probably
> develop one.
> Hm.
> Well, in the abstract, I guess it's better for Russia if France and Germany
> go on a witch hunt. That way you and I have a very clear common cause later:
> putting the screws on Germany. And that's Jon.
> So I guess that's my preference. :-)
> But really, it depends on lots of things that aren't clear yet.
> We'll discuss it later, right?

Sounds good.  It's actually been pretty quiet around here.  What's the
latest in the east?

Hohn

Message from France to England in 'pouchtoo':

Cal,

> Heck no!  I make a point of treating each game as separate and anyway, in a
> game of this calibre, one can't afford to go in thinking "I can't work with
> that so-and-so who stabbed me last game" cause the chances are that attitude
> will lead to an early exit.  I'd like to be around a bit longer THIS game,
> thank you!  :)

Sounds cool to me. :)

> I think we proved we can work well together and coordinate tactics and
> strategies.  I'd like a chance to do it when I'm not forced to leave my back
> open to your knife hand... heh heh.

Heh indeed.  I'm sure that if we both just watch ourselves and
exercise decent caution (unlike last game, where the situation kinda
forced us into taking risks), we'll do well.

> >For starters, shall we do the traditional neutral zone in ENG?  And no
> >fleets built in LVP, and fleets in BRE or LON only with prior approval
> >from the other?  How shall we resolve the Belgian question?  I'm more
> >than open to proposals or suggestions.
>
> I have no problem with those conditions regarding neutral zones and builds.

Great!

> Soooo, if we're going to work together, presumably we're going to target
> Germany?  If that's the case, I'd like to keep Belgium for myself.  You can
> manage two builds anyway with Spain & Portugal and if England also builds
> two, we'd have the upper hand right from the start.  How does this sound to
> you?

I have no problem with you taking Belgium, although if in the future
you're able to get more builds, I'd like Belgium to be the first
"equalization center" that gets shifted from you back to me.  Of
course, that would only happen if we would have a comparable number of
centers after the switch, and if you would not have to take a disband
because of it.  Does that sound reasonable to you?

> I'm definitely looking forward to this game.  d:-})

Me too!

Message from England to France in 'pouchtoo':

> Hi Hohn!  Hope your trip was enjoyable and also that you got more
> mail about this game than I did.  Actually, maybe I shouldn't hope
> that.  I've had damn near squat and I think it may be time to start
> getting paranoid... :)

I haven't heard much either.  In particular, Steve Cooley has been
completely silent.

> With the lack of letter, I've precious little to report aside from
> the rumour that Italy intends to attack Turkey in the early going.
> Not that I expected anything other than an eastern attack from
> Italy.  Can't imagine anyone fool enough to open westwards, eh?
> hmmm :)

Hey, _I_ sure hope not!  I think Manus and I have an understanding;
that only makes sense, and it works to his and my mutual benefit, I
believe.  But I won't be making myself too naked, in case he wants to
axe France from the get-go, like what happened last game.

> So, what's new on your end?  Any more thoughts on an anti-German
> stance?

John is negotiating hard regarding Belgium.  If we want to work
against him, I suggest we use that province as the major bargaining
point.  (As expected.)  How shall we coordinate our diplomatic
efforts, do you think?

Hohn

Message from Russia to France in 'pouchtoo':

>Sounds good.  It's actually been pretty quiet around here.  What's the
>latest in the east?

Not too much.
Steve is working on learning how to use the Judge to send press.
He's told me he's interested in keeping the Black Sea empty, and that he
expects Italy to play Lepanto. Not much at all from Austria.

I'm expecting no trouble from Jon, anyway.

I think your absence may be the reason it's so quiet in the west, and the
relative newness to email of Cyrille and Steve may explain the quietude of
my neighborhood. I'm sure this will change with the opening moves!

Jamie

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

I'm bored.

Have you heard anything?  What did Turkey say when you told him I was
opening with a Lepanto?

Manus

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Well, Turkey hasn't responded. And actually I didn't so much tell him that
you were going to play Lepanto, as confirm that that's what I'd heard too.
He told *me* you were playing Lepanto, and I said, "Yeah, that's what he
told me, but I wasn't sure whether he meant it."  So that worked out well
for me, in a way.

I've only had one real note from Steve, and only one of any kind from
Cyrille. I've exchanged several with King Kal, but without saying much of
anything -- he's bored too, and he's a little worried about the quietude in
his area (rightly so, I think).

I figure things will pick up a bit now that it's just a week till the
deadline. I hope so. If everything stays really boring, let's make up
something exciting to do.


I'm pretty much settled on playing three units south, but I have no idea
whether I should (a) go to Black Sea, with Mos-Sev and War-Ukr, a very
Austria-friendly opening, or (b) go War-Gal, Sev-Rum, Mos-Ukr, which is
very anti-Austrian on its face but then I could go with F Rum-Bla, Ukr S
Gal-Rum and have a good anti-Turkish position, or (c) play conservatively
with Sev-Rum, Mos-Sev, War-Ukr. If I get no new information, I will most
likely to with (c). But I am mildly worried that Austria will go to
Galicia. Probably not, though.

What will you do with A Ven?

Jamie

Message from England to Italy and Russia in

'pouchtoo':


Hi guys!

I'm writing to both of you since I've got the same thing to say and you'll
both be affected if I'm right.

I'm getting VERY worried about an F/G connection.  I learned last game that
Hohn has a certain style of writing when he's about to attack me and he used
it in his last letter.  John's notes are, as usual, cryptic and short, as
well as non-committal.  Very non-reassuring, in other words.

If I'm right, one/both of you will be the next target after I'm gone.  That
leave me with this question:  can I count on support from either/both of you
when/if Hohn opens to the Channel?  Am I using too many/not enough /'s?
:)/:(

Seriously though, I'm really expecting to be attacked in S01 and I need to
know who my friends are if that happens.

King Kal

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Kal,
>
>Jon may have decided to be quiet until he hears more from Hohn.


I wrote him and said I was getting paranoid from the silence in the game and
he sent me back soothing words along the lines of "Just relax now,
everything is going to...be...JUST....fine"

>Steve (Turkey) did not understand how to send press through the Judge; I
>explained it to him and he's just tried it out by sending me some frivolous
>press, but I expect he'll get down to business now.


Still no word from him though...  a bit surprising.

>Thanks for the tip about his moving north. It's quite possible that he
>merely told Manus that so as to allay any Italian fears. (I'm assuming
>that's how you got the news through the grapevine.)


Yup.

>I still plan to go three south, one north. I intend to get Sweden and
>Rumania (big news, huh?).

Simply shocking.

>Since I still have very little idea what Austria and Turkey are up to, I
>can't be any more specific than that, but I imagine my plans will clarify
>once I see the opening moves. I know, this is very uninformative, but
>that's the extent of my plans so far.


S'okay, I'm sure you'll let me know anything you hear.

>I must say I am rather worried about a F/G combination. I will attempt to
>have Manus as a strong ally, and possibly in that way have a little
>influence -- he could in principle badger either the French or the Germans
>if they are getting too ambitious. I hope you'll be on good terms with
>Manus, too.


Yeah, me too, as you saw from my note to you and Manus.  My worst fear now
is that Turkey DOES move north and occupy your time since it seems to me
you're my only likely outside source of aid.  As good as his intentions
might be, I can't see Manus helping me out much.

>Fingers crossed,


Amen to that

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Sorry to take so long.  Six day work weeks and the flu have worn me down
pretty good.  :(

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>You are right. Hardly a word has arrived in my email box in days.  My read
>is not paranoid, though.  I think everyone in our part of the world plans
>to grab the easy ones and then see how things shake out.


Hope so.  I expect a higher degree of communication in these "expert" games,
I guess...  :)

>What are your thoughts regarding Belgium?

Obviously, I'd like to have it for myself, especially as you and Hohn
already have an easy two builds, but I'm willing to negotiate for possession
of it if it gets me an ally.  Any offers/requests?

King Kal

Message from England to France in 'pouchtoo':

Sorry to take so long responding.  A six day work week (on midnights yet)
and the flu have worn me down pretty good.

>Message from [email protected] as France to England in 'pouchtoo':

>I have no problem with you taking Belgium, although if in the future
>you're able to get more builds, I'd like Belgium to be the first
>"equalization center" that gets shifted from you back to me.  Of
>course, that would only happen if we would have a comparable number of
>centers after the switch, and if you would not have to take a disband
>because of it.  Does that sound reasonable to you?


That shouldn't be any problem since, if we attack Germany, I should be able
to procure Denmark fairly quickly.

>I haven't heard much either.  In particular, Steve Cooley has been
>completely silent.


Jamie has heard from him (once he was shown how to use the Judge), but he
still hasn't gotten back to me on my initial letter.

>> So, what's new on your end?  Any more thoughts on an anti-German
>> stance?
>
>John is negotiating hard regarding Belgium.  If we want to work
>against him, I suggest we use that province as the major bargaining
>point.  (As expected.)  How shall we coordinate our diplomatic
>efforts, do you think?


He's asked the same from me in return for an attack on you.  Naturally, I
said yes and I'm waiting for a reaction.  I'll let you know what happens.

King Kal

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Hm.

What shall we tell Cal? I am frankly not prepared to rush to his aid in the
event that he's going to be snuffed by the dreaded Jon-Hohn combo, but I
hate to see him suffer.

I'm just too soft-hearted, that's all.

Jamie

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

So, Kaiserungarn, how do we two stand now?

I don't know whether I can count on you. Can we agree on a specific and
mutually beneficial plan of action?

Jamie

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Hi James,
Well, to be precise, I can think about many very precise plans:
If you say that you will not move into Gal, I will then move Bud-Ser,Vie-Bud,Tri-Alb, then it depends on you.
You can move Sev-Rum, Mos-Sev,War-Ukr, asking Turkey to move Ank-Con, then Con-Aeg.
If I were Turk, I wouldn't believe that, but you can see strange things happened.
If he disagree, you can ask him to bounce in Arm, while he move F Ank-Con, then you take Bla.
If he doesn't like it too, you can attack him. For instance, you move Sev-Arm,Mos-Sev,War-Ukr.
Then, I will support Sev-Rum with Bud and Ser, while you bounce yourself in Sev, and then build F sev. Of course, this is much less easier, and shoul
d be risky if Italy attacks me, but I don't think he will.
In fact, there's a lot of possibilities, depending on what you think about Austria and Turkey as ally.
I will consider other situations. I just want to say that, if you agree to leave Gal free, I will not in any case act against you in Rum, and more th
an that, support you there if Italy doesn't attack me.


Cyrille from Austria.

Message from Austria to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Hi Manus,
sorry for answering so late, but I was abroad for my job. I hope you still do not have really choose on your strategy for the game.
I'm glad to hear you speak about your fleet game. It's also the way I'm playing Italy.
Of course, I heard about the key Lepanto. Edi Birsan told me about that. He plays it a few times, but always as Italy, I guess:-)
I mean, knowing almost nobody in the game, and really new to BPM games, I would prefer a smoother approach, saying a classic Lepanto, which I will be
 able to support with my F Gre, moving to Aeg, or supporting your fleet in it.
Of course, I will watch carefully to avoid a Juggernaut, and the best way to do it is to cooperate since now. If one of us attack the other one, at l
east before the end of turkey, it will be our common death.
The A/I ally is one of the strongest one in the board. As you suggest it, I will build armies while you build fleets. The crucial point is to leave a
 DMZ between us. I always play like that with my allies.
Simple but true: if you're far from your allies' dots, you just can't stab it, or at least very poorly.
that's why I suggest to leave both Trieste and Venice empty, considering also, and Germany seems to agree, tyrolia as a DMZ.
I will move East, while you move South-East, and hope this will lead us to a great game.

Waiting for your opinion, I wish you good luck for the game,

Cyrille (Austria)

Message from Austria to France in 'pouchtoo':

Hi Hohn,
thanks for your sweet message. Even if I don't know most of the players in that game, I heard about some, and I guess it will be a nice one.
I'm sure of nothing since now, and I'd like Italy to be there to help me, to face a possible Juggernaut. In any case then, I will send him against yo
u. (well, when I say send, it means ask, of course:-).
I will probably open smoothly in that game, and wait to see what's happen.
Our common position should lead us to exchange informations, as far as it seems benefic for both of us of course.
At this moment, I have no informations about France indeed. Maybe you've some about Austria:-)?

Anyway, good luck,

Cyrille from Austria.

Message from Austria to France in 'pouchtoo':

Hi Hohn,
thanks for your sweet message. Even if I don't know most of the players in that game, I heard about some, and I guess it will be a nice one.
I'm sure of nothing since now, and I'd like Italy to be there to help me, to face a possible Juggernaut. In any case then, I will send him against yo
u. (well, when I say send, it means ask, of course:-).
I will probably open smoothly in that game, and wait to see what's happen.
Our common position should lead us to exchange informations, as far as it seems benefic for both of us of course.
At this moment, I have no informations about France indeed. Maybe you've some about Austria:-)?

Anyway, good luck,

Cyrille from Austria.

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Hi James,
sorry for answering so late, but I was abroad for my job. I hope you still do not have really choose on your strategy for the game.
As strong land powers, you should have some great opportunities. If we act together, we won't have many threats.
You're the one country on the board with the most oppotunities, maybe with Italy.
I'd like to play with you. If you say that you're not gonna move into Galicia, I won't go myself, letting you take surely Rumania. Do you plan to pla
y 2-2, or 3-1? Against Turkey, England, Germany, or even me?
Maybe you think I'm really agressive. I'm not, but it's true that, using to play FTF short games, I choose quickly an option. But then, I can be a ve
ry potent ally.
Waiting for your answer, I wish you Good luck for the game.

Cyrille from Austria.

Message from Austria to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Hi,

I had some problems with the judge, but I guess now, it's OK.
Well, it's just to say that, I don't consider that Turkey and Austria are devoited to fight each other.
I will open smoothly, and 'm aware of any good opportunity to find a strong ally.
If I can, I will try to act on Rum, but will not in any case, claim it for myself.
I will just try to take Ser and Gre, and look at the overall board just after.

good luck in that game,

Cyrille from Austria.

Message from Austria to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Hi John,
I agree too about the DMZ in Tyrolia. More than that, I suggest we extend it in Bohemia (it's a crazy opening, but sometimes...).
It's also clear that the 3 central powers MUST cooperate, at least with a non-agression pact, in order to first survive, then try to extend.

I wish you good luck for the game,

Cyrille from Austria.

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Hm.
>
Hm indeed!  I have the same feelings as you.  I suppose I am a bit more
flexible as far as willingness to help him, but of course this would mean
giving up our initial plan to take on A or T.  If I have a safe east,
with the Med left to me, I *could* head west, but this would leave A/T
with nothing to do but gnaw on you.  We can't have that.

Don't know what to tell him.  I'll write him quickly with a non-committal
"I will try to find out what F/G have in mind," to begin with.

Frankly, he's right that if he goes, fleets will be built in France rather
than in England, and this is not good for me.

Manus

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

Greetings!  Our DMZ is working out just great, isn't it?  :-)  Anyway,
I'm writing to ask if you've had a chance to determine on a course of
action (anti-G or anti-E or, God forbid, anti-I).  In all but the last
of these three options, I stand willing, able, and anxious to help you
with my silver tongue.  If you are going anti-G, we might even be able
to talk about more than just talk.  I have no plans as of yet, and am
frankly getting a bit bored, so if you have any news or odd-jobs for
me, I would appreciate it.

Manus

Message from Italy to England and Russia in

'pouchtoo':

King Kal:

Your message was received in Rome with much concern.  As you know, it is
not in the interests of the nation of Italy to have our fellow sea-going
power put in jeopardy, as this would mean that shipbuilders of French
ancenstry will likely find work soon.

I will write to the Franco-German pair and attempt to divine what is up
and to formulate how Italy can respond.

Manus

Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Glad to hear from you.  No, I have not yet chosen a strategy.  Since our
two fates are so dependent on each other, I really need to know what your
choice of alliance is before I can decide.  Assuming that you will not
be attacking me (we both seem agreed that anything but A/I friendship would
be foolish), then our options are as follows:

   * if you are attacking Russia with Turkey, I will look for something
     to keep me occupied in the north or west.
   * if you are attacking Turkey with Russia, I will likely be able to
     help
   * if you are being attacked by Turkey and Russia, I will do all I can
     to attack Turkey in the Med.
   * if you want to unconventionally head into Germany, perhaps I can
     help there as well.

So, although I usually like to take the lead in offering plans, at this early
stage of the game, what I do is entirely contingent on what you decide and
what you learn from your eastern neighbors.

I understand your reluctance to do a Key Lepanto, and I am willing to open
in ANY way that we two decide is beneficial.

I am fine with your plan to leave Venice and Trieste empty, and I will
happily build more fleets than armies while you build armies exclusively.
I am also willing to attack and dislodge your fleet if it is convenient
for you at any time, so that you can rebuild the unit as an army.  I am
a very big fan of this tactic, and we can use it to feign a war between
us and come out at the end of that year with an even stronger position.

I look forward to hearing back from you,
Manus

Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Glad to hear from you.  No, I have not yet chosen a strategy.  Since our
two fates are so dependent on each other, I really need to know what your
choice of alliance is before I can decide.  Assuming that you will not
be attacking me (we both seem agreed that anything but A/I friendship would
be foolish), then our options are as follows:

   * if you are attacking Russia with Turkey, I will look for something
     to keep me occupied in the north or west.
   * if you are attacking Turkey with Russia, I will likely be able to
     help
   * if you are being attacked by Turkey and Russia, I will do all I can
     to attack Turkey in the Med.
   * if you want to unconventionally head into Germany, perhaps I can
     help there as well.

So, although I usually like to take the lead in offering plans, at this early
stage of the game, what I do is entirely contingent on what you decide and
what you learn from your eastern neighbors.

I understand your reluctance to do a Key Lepanto, and I am willing to open
in ANY way that we two decide is beneficial.

I am fine with your plan to leave Venice and Trieste empty, and I will
happily build more fleets than armies while you build armies exclusively.
I am also willing to attack and dislodge your fleet if it is convenient
for you at any time, so that you can rebuild the unit as an army.  I am
a very big fan of this tactic, and we can use it to feign a war between
us and come out at the end of that year with an even stronger position.

I look forward to hearing back from you,
Manus

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Dear Cyrille,

I am a little confused about the state of our communication. Your first
note to me asked me to agree not to enter Galicia. I wrote back to you
agreeing to that. Then I heard nothing from you for a while, so I sent you
another short note today. You replied today but it appeared that you had
not received my earlier reply (in which I agreed that we would both stay
out of Galicia). And then, just now, I got your *first* note to me *again*.

Well, if you want I will send you that mail of mine again, the one in which
I said I agreed about Galicia.

But anyway, now I think we do have a good enough agreement. I will not move
to Galicia, I will move my A War to Ukr and my A Mos to Sev. You will move
to Alb, Ser, Bud, and assuming Italy doesn't attack you, we will then try
to support each other into Turkey's territory in the seasons to come.

Jamie

Message from Russia to England and Italy in

'pouchtoo':

Hi, Sailors.

I would love to be able to say (honestly) that I will rush to the aid of
the British in case the German War Machine begins to rev a little too fast.
But as you both know, I can't really commit myself, since I have this other
sphere to think about. I do pledge to lend what influence I can. Maybe a
smallish commitment of troops from both Manus and me would be enough for a
while in case of F/G.


Hey, Kal, look on the bright side. When her allies in Italy and Russia
abandon her suddenly, leaving her high and dry, and France and German are
intent on destroying her... England can always offer to puppet for John.
It's foolproof.

:-) :-) :-)


Jamie

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Vittorio-Emanu(s)ele,

Just to be clear:
In my opinion, it would be a very, very bad idea to begin an attack on
Turkey and then break it off to go rescue England. You don't leave the
cobra alive in the corner once you've angered him. That is what my Hindu
mother told me. Ok, ok, but if she were Hindu, I bet she would have.

I wouldn't mind lending England just a little help if need be, but it's
hardly a foregone conclusion that you would be next on the French hit list.

And anyway, don't be so selfish! I know that of the three NWers you want to
see your neighbor eliminated first, but that's the one who *isn't* *my*
neighbor, and I'd rather see France on the Two side of a Two-on-One,
personally.  Neighbors, sheesh. I'm surrounded by 'em!

Jamie

Message from Russia to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Dearest Sultan Steve,

I am still awaiting the promised serious mail ("When you reply, I'll know
I'm doing this right and get serious.").

Are you still having trouble with press? Did you fail to receive my
acknowledgment of that test message? Or what?

Everyone I speak to says that 'as Turkey, Steve likes to go north'. I
surmise that you gave that information to Italy, and he has spread it
around to his friends. 'Surmise' may not be quite the right word. I am
*hoping* that's what happened.

Work with me here, baby, work with me.

Jamie

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

>Obviously, I'd like to have it for myself, especially as you and Hohn
>already have an easy two builds, but I'm willing to negotiate for possession
>of it if it gets me an ally.  Any offers/requests?
>
>King Kal

Well, since you are open to the idea, sure, I'll throw in with you in
exchange for a shot at Belgium.  I hope you will be able to help me in, but
at least I would ask that you not oppose me.

Of course, we'll have to see what France and Russia do before making solid
plans.  I'm hoping Russia does not block your move into Norway, so you can
help me fend off Hohn's herds.

Kaiser John

Message from Germany to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

>Hi John,
>I agree too about the DMZ in Tyrolia. More than that, I suggest we extend
>it in Bohemia (it's a crazy opening, but sometimes...).
>It's also clear that the 3 central powers MUST cooperate, at least with a
>non-agression pact, in order to first survive, then try to extend.


I think you sent this one twice.  In case my response failed to reach the
first time, I agree wholeheartedly to DMZ all along our border and I hope
for future cooperation between us.  Any hints as to what my neighbors are
plotting?

What I have heard points to Russia going south.

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Just to be clear:
> In my opinion, it would be a very, very bad idea to begin an attack on
> Turkey and then break it off to go rescue England.
>
Oh, I definitely agree.

> You don't leave the
> cobra alive in the corner once you've angered him. That is what my Hindu
> mother told me. Ok, ok, but if she were Hindu, I bet she would have.
>
ROTFL!

> I wouldn't mind lending England just a little help if need be, but it's
> hardly a foregone conclusion that you would be next on the French hit list.
>
Quite right.  Much more likely would be an F/R vs. G.  Which'd be fine with
me, since (selfishly :-) I might get a piece of that pie.

> And anyway, don't be so selfish! I know that of the three NWers you want to
> see your neighbor eliminated first, but that's the one who *isn't* *my*
> neighbor, and I'd rather see France on the Two side of a Two-on-One,
> personally.  Neighbors, sheesh. I'm surrounded by 'em!
>
Don't you hate that?

Brief summary:  I think maybe you got the impression that I am less in
agreement with you than I am (100%).  I believe the proper course of action is
for you and I to conduct joint operations in the southeast while meddling
onlly diplomatically in the northwest (for example, by passing Kal what
information he needs to draw the war out as long as we want it to be).

Manus

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Brief summary:  I think maybe you got the impression that I am less in
>agreement with you than I am (100%).  I believe the proper course of action is
>for you and I to conduct joint operations in the southeast while meddling
>onlly diplomatically in the northwest (for example, by passing Kal what
>information he needs to draw the war out as long as we want it to be).

Oh, good. Ok.

Jamie

Message from England to Italy and Russia in

'pouchtoo':


>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England and Russia in
>'pouchtoo':
>
>King Kal:
>
>Your message was received in Rome with much concern.  As you know, it is
>not in the interests of the nation of Italy to have our fellow sea-going
>power put in jeopardy, as this would mean that shipbuilders of French
>ancestry will likely find work soon.


Especially SOUTHERN French ancestry... :)

>I will write to the Franco-German pair and attempt to divine what is up
>and to formulate how Italy can respond.

Appreciate it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Message from [email protected] as Russia to England and Italy in
> 'pouchtoo':

> Hi, Sailors.

> I would love to be able to say (honestly) that I will rush to the aid of
> the British in case the German War Machine begins to rev a little too
fast.
> But as you both know, I can't really commit myself, since I have this
other
> sphere to think about. I do pledge to lend what influence I can. Maybe a
> smallish commitment of troops from both Manus and me would be enough for a
> while in case of F/G.

That's actually more than I would hoped for.  I know you can't commit
(either of you) to a full scale assault, but an A/F or two to occupy their
minds would be nice.

> Hey, Kal, look on the bright side. When her allies in Italy and Russia
> abandon her suddenly, leaving her high and dry, and France and German are
> intent on destroying her... England can always offer to puppet for John.
> It's foolproof.

> :-) :-) :-)

Hey!  That sounds just foolish enough to work!  d:-})

King Kal

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Well, since you are open to the idea, sure, I'll throw in with you in
>exchange for a shot at Belgium.  I hope you will be able to help me in, but
>at least I would ask that you not oppose me.
>
>Of course, we'll have to see what France and Russia do before making solid
>plans.  I'm hoping Russia does not block your move into Norway, so you can
>help me fend off Hohn's herds.


"Hohn's herds..."  Sounds like last game... grin.

What I need to ask you is this: how much are you willing to commit to in
S01?  If I can count on a move to Burgandy from you, I am willing to move to
the English Channel.  If we're going to attack France, I'd rather do it as a
blitz as opposed to half-assed.  You saw last game that I play that way.
Even though I eventually turned around, my opening against you was certainly
full-throttle!

Comments?

King Kal

Message from England to Master in 'pouchtoo':

Just a quick note of explanation:  my "cry for help" to Italy and Russia is
real enough as I don't trust France/Germany; however, the underlying reason
is to draw E/I/R into a subtle little clique without even I/R knowing it.
It's a nice combo: E/I are nice counterpoints (meaning if one does well, the
other usually does too, kind of like England and Turkey) and so are I/R.
Even E/R is a tremendously strong alliance if it can be kept secret long
enough.  I'm hoping that, if we can form a sort of "mutual support (pardon
the Diplomacy pun) group" it will eventually lead to a future teaming up of
two or three of us.  With any luck, it will even avoid a stalemate
situation.

Either that, or I'll out-subtle myself and end up on the cutting room floor
in 1903...  :)

"King Kal"

Co-Owner scoresheet-talk listserv

Imagine a dinner table set for a thousand guests, at which
each man is sitting between his own father and his own
son.  (We might just as well imagine a ladies banquet...)
[A]t one end of the table there might be a French Nobel
laureate in white tie and tails and with the Legion of Honor
on his breast, and at the other a Cro-Magnon man dressed
in animal skins and with a necklace of cave-bear teeth.
Yet every one would be able to converse with his neighbors
to his left and right, who would be either his father or his
son.  So the distance from then to now is not really very
great.

Bjorn Kurten (How To Deep-Freeze a Mammoth)

Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

> I had some problems with the judge, but I guess now, it's OK.
>
It's always a bit strange starting out.  :-)

> I think I'd rather go against Turkey, with (?) the help of Russia, but I'm
> not sure about that.
>
I have talked a little bit to Russia and I think he might agree to this.
I know he's been waiting to hear from you, so if you get in touch with him
and suggest such a plan, let me know what he says.

> I agree to destroy my fleet, as soon as possible, but maybe not before the
> end of Turkey, cause it can help before.
>
Okay.  I will open to ION, and you and I will both immediately vacate
Venice and Trieste.

Talk to you soon,
Manus

Message from England to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Hi Cyrille!  Comme en ca va?

I'm afraid I never received your initial message last week.  I guess it, and
the others, went astray in the Judge.

Just wanted to touch base with you and say an opening "hello" as I'm sure
we'll have much more to talk about later in the game.  For now, the Western
picture is pretty muddled and I am hoping to stave off any possible F/G
alliance.  I don't know how successful I'm being.  I've talked to everyone
else in the game (except Turkey who hasn't written me back) and everybody is
playing their cards pretty close to the vest, not releasing any information.
I guess we'll see what the score is in Spring 01.

King Kal
England
Co-Owner scoresheet-talk listserv

Imagine a dinner table set for a thousand guests, at which
each man is sitting between his own father and his own
son.  (We might just as well imagine a ladies banquet...)
[A]t one end of the table there might be a French Nobel
laureate in white tie and tails and with the Legion of Honor
on his breast, and at the other a Cro-Magnon man dressed
in animal skins and with a necklace of cave-bear teeth.
Yet every one would be able to converse with his neighbors
to his left and right, who would be either his father or his
son.  So the distance from then to now is not really very
great.

Bjorn Kurten (How To Deep-Freeze a Mammoth)

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Still no word from Steve. I mean, I did get a serious message from him
once, and then a test of his ability to use the Judge to send press, but
things were left very open almost a week ago.

I am almost sure now what I'll do in the opening. Sev-Rum, Mos-Sev,
War-Ukr. I'd order Sev-Bla, but then Mos-Sev would also bounce if Turkey
orders Ank-Bla.

I believe that Cyrille will open Tri-Alb, Bud-Ser, Vie-Bud, so with your
Lepanto we should be pretty well set to execute the old plan.

Jamie

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Right-O!

Sorry so short,

I'm gone for the weekend on family business, so I'm out of touch
beginning in about ten minutes.  Talk to you later....

Manus

Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,

> Message from [email protected] as Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
> Greetings!  Our DMZ is working out just great, isn't it?  :-)  Anyway,
> I'm writing to ask if you've had a chance to determine on a course of
> action (anti-G or anti-E or, God forbid, anti-I).  In all but the last
> of these three options, I stand willing, able, and anxious to help you
> with my silver tongue.  If you are going anti-G, we might even be able
> to talk about more than just talk.  I have no plans as of yet, and am
> frankly getting a bit bored, so if you have any news or odd-jobs for
> me, I would appreciate it.

I'm certainly not going anti-I. :)

As for the rest, I'm still not sure about course of action, although I
can say that I am sending a unit to BUR.  If you're interested in
moving to TYR, I will _support_ myself into BUR, so we can at least
maintain our options come the Fall.

What do you say?  Interested in a little MUN action? ;) Since I'm not
greedy, and since I'll likely get two anyway, I'd be more than open to
the idea of supporting _you_ in, rather than asking you to support me
in.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Hohn

Message from France to England in 'pouchtoo':

Cal,

> Message from [email protected] as England to France in 'pouchtoo':
> Sorry to take so long responding.  A six day work week (on midnights yet)
> and the flu have worn me down pretty good.

Sorry to hear it!  Hope you're feeling better.

Apologies for this delay from me, as well.  I've been out of town
(Vegas, baby!).  It was an unexpected but fun trip.

> That shouldn't be any problem since, if we attack Germany, I should be able
> to procure Denmark fairly quickly.

Works for me!

> >I haven't heard much either.  In particular, Steve Cooley has been
> >completely silent.
>
> Jamie has heard from him (once he was shown how to use the Judge), but he
> still hasn't gotten back to me on my initial letter.

Me neither.  I guess he figures he needs to concentrate on his
neighbors, or something.

> >John is negotiating hard regarding Belgium.  If we want to work
> >against him, I suggest we use that province as the major bargaining
> >point.  (As expected.)  How shall we coordinate our diplomatic
> >efforts, do you think?
>
> He's asked the same from me in return for an attack on you.  Naturally, I
> said yes and I'm waiting for a reaction.  I'll let you know what happens.

What's the latest?

He's asked me for Belgium as well, in exchange for "alleviating his
fears" about my moving to Burgundy.  I've played coy, although I'll
probably end up committing to it so he doesn't get too fired up about
me in Burgundy.

				* * *

OK Cal, I'm in with you.  I've decided John and I don't mix entirely
well together, personality-wise, and I'd much prefer working with you.
If you're willing, I'd love to work in a strong EF, against G and
whoever else gets in our way.  Sustained, mutual growth and equality,
DMZ's, the whole works.  Having worked with you last game, I know we
can do it, and I think the natural strengths of the EF will also work
to our benefit.

What do you say, bud?  Are you in? :)

Hohn

Message from France to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Jamie,

> Message from [email protected] as Russia to France in 'pouchtoo':
>
> >Sounds good.  It's actually been pretty quiet around here.  What's the
> >latest in the east?
>
> Not too much.
> Steve is working on learning how to use the Judge to send press.
> He's told me he's interested in keeping the Black Sea empty, and that he
> expects Italy to play Lepanto. Not much at all from Austria.
> I'm expecting no trouble from Jon, anyway.

I figure Germany has other interests, so I suspect you're right.  I've
even heard him say he wasn't planning to block you from SWE, so that
should be some comfort to you.

> I think your absence may be the reason it's so quiet in the west, and the
> relative newness to email of Cyrille and Steve may explain the quietude of
> my neighborhood. I'm sure this will change with the opening moves!

Still quiet from the east.  What's the latest?

On my end, John is playing a bit coy.  Cal and Manus have both made
the standard non-aggression pact noises.

Hohn

Message from France to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Cyrille,

Nothing much new on my side of the board to report.  G is playing it
coy, and E and I have both made the standard non-aggression pact
noises, but not much more.

How are things on your end?  I'm hearing possible RT, and I've also
heard Italy is interested in working with you.  Is your thinking the
same or similar?

Hohn

Message from France to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

John,

Still haven't heard back from you regarding the below.  Deadline's
coming up soon, so I'd appreciate it if you could get back to me when
you get a chance.  Thanks!

Hohn

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:19:23 GMT

==========================================================================

:: Judge: USWI  Game: Pouchtoo  Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: S1901M Tue Feb 03 1998 23:30:00

Message sent to Germany:

>Message from [email protected] as France to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

John,

> I hope we can do business.  I must say that I am a bit troubled by your
> firm intention to order a unit to Burgundy.  It seems to me that such a
> decision ought to await at least some discussion between us.

I'm sorry you're troubled.  The reason I told you in this fashion is
because I am an up-front person, and I vastly prefer honesty rather
than pointless lies.

Realistically speaking, there is next to nothing you can do to
convince me _not_ to go to BUR, so I wanted to make sure that was
known from the outset.  If I don't go there, and you stab, my game is
close to over.  Not immediately, but the type of comeback that you
staged last game after losing BUR immediately is extremely rare (and I
compliment you whole-heartedly on that comeback).

If this inflexibility on my end regarding something that I consider to
be of paramount importance to the defense of my nation will make it
difficult for the two of us to work together, then I'm sorry to hear
it, but if that's how it's got to be, that's how it's got to be.

To be honest, I seldom have major problems with German players
regarding this course of action.  If you want to bounce, that's fine,
as I said.  Although to be honest, it makes more tactical sense, IMO,
for me to go to BUR and you to go to RUH or something.  That way, you
could always go back to MUN to bounce me if you fear treachery, but
more importantly, we could do something together in BEL that we both
can benefit from.  See below.

> But I do
> understand your concerns.  My problem, of course, is that I almost have to
> bounce, which immobilizes one of my units for the Spring turn.  If we are
> to work together, wouldn't you prefer that I make the strongest move
> possible?

Yes, so long as it doesn't leave me wide open.  The only German center
that BUR borders is MUN.  You can cover it in Fall if you fear
treachery.  I don't think my moving into BUR should necessarily
prevent you from making the strongest move possible.

> That said, it does remain possible for me to move strongly, then defend
> Munich in the Fall if it appears you are against me.

Whoops.  Yes, that should teach me to re-read the whole message again
before responding.  :)  You're obviously correct, as I needlessly
repeat above.

> Therefore, I can see
> my way to accepting a French army in Burgundy.  However, I'd like for you
> to help me into  Belgium to take some of the sting out of it. Then, I'd
> even welcome the army in Burgundy.  It would also be the best possible sign
> of our prospects for future cooperation.  Whichever way we go from there,
> I'll be well positioned to ensure our future success.

I'd be receptive to supporting you into BEL, depending on how you want
to address the English issue.

> Whatever comes of our negotiations, I also want above all else to avoid the
> F-G war of attrition that only sets Germany up for an early exit.

I'd like to avoid that as well, as it also makes me stagnate, if not
die.

> I have reassured Russia that I will not block his capture of Sweden.  I
> have rarely seen Germany do that, so it's a pretty conventional thing to
> promise.  Naturally, my orders are subject to change but I see no reason at
> this point to strengthen England's hand to that extent, or to wreck
> Russia's chances of holding off his enemies in the south, so early in the
> game.

Interesting.  With Steve Cooley in Turkey, I think I'm probably in
favor of Russia gaining SWE this year, anyway.  :)

How do you want to deal with England?  Neutrality?  Full-bore attack?
Three-way alliance?

Hohn


End of message.

Message from Germany to France in 'pouchtoo':

Hohn,

I am reconciled to you moving to Bur.  I would appreciate your help in
taking Belgium.  In regard to England, I'd prefer to leave options open
until we see the first round.  If that's okay with you, I think we are
set.

John

Message from England to France in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as France to England in 'pouchtoo':

>> >John is negotiating hard regarding Belgium.  If we want to work
>> >against him, I suggest we use that province as the major bargaining
>> >point.  (As expected.)  How shall we coordinate our diplomatic
>> >efforts, do you think?
>>
>> He's asked the same from me in return for an attack on you.  Naturally, I
>> said yes and I'm waiting for a reaction.  I'll let you know what happens.
>
>What's the latest?


I told him that, while I would like Belgium, I was going to let it be a
sticking point if the option was a two way attack on myself.  His response
was that, since YOU were being so intractable over Belgium, he was willing
to throw his lot in with me.  That's about where we left it.

>He's asked me for Belgium as well, in exchange for "alleviating his
>fears" about my moving to Burgundy.  I've played coy, although I'll
>probably end up committing to it so he doesn't get too fired up about
>me in Burgundy.


Makes sense.

>OK Cal, I'm in with you.  I've decided John and I don't mix entirely
>well together, personality-wise, and I'd much prefer working with you.
>If you're willing, I'd love to work in a strong EF, against G and
>whoever else gets in our way.  Sustained, mutual growth and equality,
>DMZ's, the whole works.  Having worked with you last game, I know we
>can do it, and I think the natural strengths of the EF will also work
>to our benefit.

>What do you say, bud?  Are you in? :)


I think so.  I don't think John is willing to trust me much after last game
and I don't want an ally who keeps me walking on eggshells.  At least I KNOW
what potential threat YOU may represent!  heh heh

I'm going to open as we agreed, neutralizing the Channel and moving my army
to Yorkshire.  Presumably, I can convoy into Bel in the Fall and take Nwy as
well.  We'll play it by ear on that til we see how John opens.  My hunch is
that he won't move the fleet to Den and will have his own support on Bel in
the Fall.  That's partly based on my feeling that he and Jamie won't
conflict initially and John won't feel he has to consider bumping the Tsar
out of Swe.

All for now,

Comments?

King Kal

Message from Russia to France in 'pouchtoo':

Good, because I'm counting on getting Sweden.
:-)

I am still waiting for some substantive response from Steve. For a while I
was waiting for both Cyrille and Steve, and as you can imagine this made me
very nervous, but then I heard from Cyrille and he announced that he hadn't
been getting messages. You know how French technology is. Er, no offense to
your military apparatus, of course!

Given the Turkish quiet, I am kind of expecting that Italy and Austria will
be going after Turkish possessions. This is not my favorite situation -- it
leaves Austria with a big, big land force and not too many options, and
Lepanto leaves Italy with an army in Turkey, also not great for me. Not too
great for you either, come to think of it. But if it does happen that way,
presumably you and I between us will persuade Manus that a Vienna Sandwich
on RI is his tastiest treat.

Jamie

Message from France to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

John,

> I am reconciled to you moving to Bur.  I would appreciate your help in
> taking Belgium.  In regard to England, I'd prefer to leave options open
> until we see the first round.  If that's okay with you, I think we are
> set.

All sounds good.

Hohn

Message from Turkey to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Dear Tsar Jamie,



>I am still awaiting the promised serious mail ("When you reply, I'll know
I'm doing this right and get serious.").

Okay, so this has taken WAY too long.  I have had some problem with the
judge--my orders came back "incomplete", with a bunch of gibberish attached.
Also, I can't seem to get my e-mail program to save the orders in a handy
format, so I wind up having to open your note each time.
>
>Everyone I speak to says that 'as Turkey, Steve likes to go north'. I
surmise that you gave that information to Italy, and he has spread it around
to his friends. 'Surmise' may not be quite the right word. I am
>*hoping* that's what happened.

No, well, not exactly.  Italy "offered" me a Lepanto.  He also indicated he
expected to be the sole seapower in the Med and he said he might let me live
if I agreed to go north and focus on the ground.  I will say this:  I used
to favor attacking Russia because I am an aggressive player.  However, I
have learned that Turkey, much like black in Chess, is a country which
demands patience.  Therefore, unless I am faced with an obviously
incompetent Russia, I no longer favor such an opening.

As long as I have your word that you want to work with me and that you will
stay out of the Black unless it's mutually agreed to, I'm down for your
cause.

Now, if I can just figure out the Judge.

Take care,

Steve

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

King Kal:

I have received word from France that makes it sound he is much
more anti-G than he is anti-E.  I've no time to write more just
now -- am just back from a long weekend out of town and looking at
mail -- but thought you would be relieved to hear this ASAP.

Manus

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

Sorry to have taken a while to respond -- I was away for the weekend.
You propose the possibility of a very interesting beer-run.  I will
look into how such a thing would be received among my friends and
neighbors (though God knows which are which at this stage) and get
back to you on it....

Manus

Message from Turkey to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Dear Cyrille,

You are not the only one having difficulty with this arcane system.  Hey,
why doesn't everyone just come over to my house and we'll settle this ftf!

I agree with you that we do not necessarily have to go to war.  In a game
like this, with so many good players, it would probably be advantageous to
form an unusual alliance.  Ideally, Italy would not be heading my way, but
he has given every indication of doing so.  This would seem to limit your
options.  It certainly limits mine as I cannot defend against a Lepanto and
simultaneously attack Russia.  Therefore, I may wind up looking a bit
conservative.

I agree with your assessment--you should take Ser and Gre, but what about
Gal?  You may know more about the Russians intentions than I do.  If you're
sure that he's not coming after you then Tyl offers possibilities.  However,
I think if we are going to work together Gal is probably best.

I am open to working with you.  I believe it would give us the element of
surprise.

One final note:  you should note that France (Hohn) and I have a very long
history (not always unfriendly) and so anything he says is designed to
undermine me.  We are competitive friends.

Take care,

Steve

Message from Turkey to England in 'pouchtoo':

King Kal,

Hey, I haven't seen you in a long while.  It's pretty amazing how the =
postal hobby croaked and this seems to be growing.  Once I get used to =
the anomalies of the Judge, I might even like this.

Bad move on my part choosing T.  I really dislike it, but didn't want =
Hohn to get it as I perceive it to be his country.  He is also among the =
best players I've ever faced.  He's got a real knack for convincing =
others that "resistance is futile".

I'm going to play this pretty straight.  Might as well since Russia's =
sending both armies north.  Ha!  I'm sure you failed to see any humor in =
that

The only clear info I have is that Italy's opening with a Lepanto and R =
and A love me.  Hmmm...someone may be lying.  More to follow.

Steve

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signon tpouchtoo =
jcalvin
press to e
King Kal,
 
Hey, I haven't seen you in a long while.  It's =
pretty=20
amazing how the postal hobby croaked and this seems to be growing.  =
Once I=20
get used to the anomalies of the Judge, I might even like =
this.
 
Bad move on my part choosing T.  I really =
dislike it, but=20
didn't want Hohn to get it as I perceive it to be his country.  He =
is also=20
among the best players I've ever faced.  He's got a real knack for=20
convincing others that "resistance is futile".
 
I'm going to play this pretty straight.  Might =
as well=20
since Russia's sending both armies north.  Ha!  I'm sure you =
failed to=20
see any humor in that
 
The only clear info I have is that Italy's opening =
with a=20
Lepanto and R and A love me.  Hmmm...someone may be lying.  =
More to=20
follow.
 
Steve

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Message from Turkey to France in 'pouchtoo':

Dear Hohn,

Oh yeah, it's great to have you in the game!  I like knowing who the =
winner's going to be ahead of time.

I think you're in good shape.  I've never played versus Cal though.  I =
think Italy's shooting for Spa in '02.  Hmmm...sure he is.  I am SOOOO =
hosed.

See ya,

Steve

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signon tpouchtoo =
jcalvin
press to f
 
Dear Hohn,
 
Oh yeah, it's great to have you in =
the=20
game!  I like knowing who the winner's going to be ahead of=20
time.
 
I think you're in good shape.  =
I've never=20
played versus Cal though.  I think Italy's shooting for Spa in =
'02. =20
Hmmm...sure he is.  I am SOOOO hosed.
 
See ya,
 
Steve

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Message from Turkey to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Yo Manus,

I hope my lack of writing hasn't caused you to do anything crazy (like =
say Lepanto!).

Please just do me this one favor--when Hohn's at 10 centers just tell me =
that I told you so.

I am so willing to work with you it's not even funny, but I view opening =
solidly against Russia as foolhardy.  I know it's late in the turn, but =
bear with me.  Because all the players here are good and experienced, =
perhaps your initial moves will give us an edge--if you are serious.

Take care,

Steve

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signon tpouchtoo =
jcalvin
press to i
 
Yo Manus,
 
I hope my lack of writing hasn't =
caused you to=20
do anything crazy (like say Lepanto!).
 
Please just do me this one =
favor--when Hohn's at=20
10 centers just tell me that I told you so.
 
I am so willing to work with you =
it's not even=20
funny, but I view opening solidly against Russia as foolhardy.  I =
know it's=20
late in the turn, but bear with me.  Because all the players here =
are good=20
and experienced, perhaps your initial moves will give us an edge--if you =
are=20
serious.
 
Take care,
 
Steve

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Message from Turkey to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

John,

My apologies for not getting to you sooner.  Are you a veteran pbem =
player?  I've been playing the game for many years, but never via the =
Web.

Not much to tell you.  I know Hohn and Cal are good players.  No, I'll =
correct myself.  Hohn is a great player.  He gets people to do things I =
can't even understand.  We'll see what kind of spell he weaves on the =
West.

He may have said some things about me; we've known each other for years. =
 The other players I'm not familiar with--do you know them?

I am (and this is no confession) the reigning Avaloncon champion.  When =
you've played as much as I have, you're bound to win once in awhile.  =
I'm sure you've got your own credentials, I just want you to know I'm =
not afraid of being known as good, just try to keep it in perspective.  =
Even if there's an R-T, which I have NO guarantee, Italy has promised a =
Lepanto (which rather precludes an attack on Russia) and Austria seems =
poised to join him.  So, you just stay focussed on your end.  I'd love =
to do some business with you some day, but not yet.

Steve

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signon tpouchtoo =
jcalvin
press to g
 
John,
 
My apologies for not getting to you=20
sooner.  Are you a veteran pbem player?  I've been playing the =
game=20
for many years, but never via the Web.
 
Not much to tell you.  I know =
Hohn and Cal=20
are good players.  No, I'll correct myself.  Hohn is a great=20
player.  He gets people to do things I can't even understand.  =
We'll=20
see what kind of spell he weaves on the West.
 
He may have said some things about me; we've known =
each other=20
for years.  The other players I'm not familiar with--do you know=20
them?
 
I am (and this is no confession) the reigning =
Avaloncon=20
champion.  When you've played as much as I have, you're bound to =
win once=20
in awhile.  I'm sure you've got your own credentials, I just want =
you to=20
know I'm not afraid of being known as good, just try to keep it in=20
perspective.  Even if there's an R-T, which I have NO guarantee, =
Italy has=20
promised a Lepanto (which rather precludes an attack on Russia) and =
Austria=20
seems poised to join him.  So, you just stay focussed on your =
end. =20
I'd love to do some business with you some day, but not =
yet.
 
Steve

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Message from Turkey to Master in 'pouchtoo':

Rick,

Some opening thoughts:  first, I wish I hadn't chose T--it's always =
tough against good players; second, Hohn's going to be tough--France is =
perfect for him--he won't be perceived as a threat until it's too late; =
third, I'll be lucky not to get hammered because of my unfamiliarity  =
with the system and my country draw.

Thanks,

Steve

Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

> Yo Manus,
>
Yo indeed!

> I hope my lack of writing hasn't caused you to do anything crazy (like =
> say Lepanto!).
>
Nope.  As I said, I am 100% noncommittal in the Spring (a couple irons on the
fire, but nothing concerning you).  I'm just looking for a good land partner
for my seagoing aspirations, and like you, I am thinking we could work well
together.

> Please just do me this one favor--when Hohn's at 10 centers just tell me =
> that I told you so.
>
:-)

> I am so willing to work with you it's not even funny, but I view opening =
> solidly against Russia as foolhardy.  I know it's late in the turn, but =
> bear with me.  Because all the players here are good and experienced, =
> perhaps your initial moves will give us an edge--if you are serious.
>
Well, my initial moves will be a lot of nothing, for whatever that's worth.
I just want Tunis and then we'll see where things have settled.

As for lack of writing, I am as guilty as anyone.  My apologies for having
fallen out of touch.

The deadline is pretty soon, is it not?

Manus

Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Greetings Cyrille:

Please keep this under your hat, but I have received a suggestion from
France that I break the Tyrolia DMZ, but not with YOUR nation as my
target (rather, a certain beer-brewing center north of us).  What are
your feelings on this (I am leaning against doing it, but I admit it as
a possibility, I suppose).

Manus

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>King Kal:
>
>I have received word from France that makes it sound he is much
>more anti-G than he is anti-E.  I've no time to write more just
>now -- am just back from a long weekend out of town and looking at
>mail -- but thought you would be relieved to hear this ASAP.


Thanx for the tip.  Negotiations with Hohn have been seeming to bear fruit,
so it's good to hear some sort of confirmation.

Here's a tip back for you: the long dormant Turk has awoken and mentioned
that he is expecting a Lepanto from you.  He doesn't know if this tip is the
real thing or if Austria/Russia are just trying suck up to him, but be
warned, he IS alert for any signs of that opening from you.

King Kal

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

France has written suggesting Falltime support for an Italian Munich, such
that he and I both get two builds.  I am leaning against doing it, but wanted
to bounce the idea off you.  Keep this under your hat, of course.  I thought
I would check to see what your relationship might be with the German.

I also thought I would pass this to you because it seems to be pretty
good evidence that Kal may not need our help as badly as he thinks.

Manus

Message from England to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Turkey to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>King Kal,
>
>Hey, I haven't seen you in a long while.  It's pretty amazing how the =
>postal hobby croaked and this seems to be growing.  Once I get used to =
>the anomalies of the Judge, I might even like this.


I've had some problems with the Judge program, but on the whole, I guess
it's okay and it certainly IS the wave of the future.

>Bad move on my part choosing T.  I really dislike it, but didn't want =
>Hohn to get it as I perceive it to be his country.  He is also among the =
>best players I've ever faced.  He's got a real knack for convincing =
>others that "resistance is futile".


Tough luck on your part as Hohn couldn't have gotten Turkey anyway - he
played it in the demo game ghodstoo which just finished.  I certainly agree
Hohn IS a tough player, but there are no rookies in this game.  Anybody who
has a good result here will have earned it.

>I'm going to play this pretty straight.  Might as well since Russia's =
>sending both armies north.  Ha!  I'm sure you failed to see any humor in =
>that


You guess right... ;)

>The only clear info I have is that Italy's opening with a Lepanto and R =
>and A love me.  Hmmm...someone may be lying.  More to follow.


I've heard the rumour, but I heard it on the first day, so it could just be
a smoke screen.

ttyl

Cal

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

Thanks for the tip.  A Lepanto is a possibility, but honestly right now
my only plan is to move to the ION and secure Tunis.  I have let Turkey
know many times of my intention to open to the ION (rather than TYS),
hoping NOT to alarm him when it happens.  I am sorry to hear that this
has had the reverse effect.  I have also told him flat-out that my desire
is to rule the waves down here; my hope being that he would not challenge
that, and that therefore I would have no need to move east with my fleets,
as a Lepanto would have me do.

Frankly, Fall 1901 is a huge mystery to me right now.  I suppose you could
discreetly pass this back to him.  Don't want anybody afraid of little
old me....

Manus

Message from Russia to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Sultan Steve,

I don't exactly understand your e-mail/judge problems.

Have you managed to get a full set of orders acknowledged? Here's an example.


	signon tpouchtoo ottoman
	f ank - con
	a con - bul
	a smy - ank

You don't need to indent like that, I'm just setting off the example from
the text of this message.

That syntax is pretty simple, right?

If your orders come back "incomplete with a bunch of gibberish attached,"
but then the Judge does list all the moves you wanted, then I think I know
what's happening. It's most likely that something you intended to be press
is being interpreted as an order. A common problem for beginners with the
Judge is that they send something that the Judge is trying to interpret as
a command for move orders, and the Judge thinks it's bad syntax, so it
keeps the correct orders you sent but raises the ERROR flag.

You have to clear the ERROR flag, but any signon will do this if you do
have correct orders in. Since you might understandably not want to give me
too much information about your orders, you could ask Rick to help, you
know.

Anyway,

>No, well, not exactly.  Italy "offered" me a Lepanto.  He also indicated he
>expected to be the sole seapower in the Med and he said he might let me live
>if I agreed to go north and focus on the ground.  I will say this:  I used
>to favor attacking Russia because I am an aggressive player.  However, I
>have learned that Turkey, much like black in Chess, is a country which
>demands patience.  Therefore, unless I am faced with an obviously
>incompetent Russia, I no longer favor such an opening.
>
>As long as I have your word that you want to work with me and that you will
>stay out of the Black unless it's mutually agreed to, I'm down for your
>cause.

Yes, ok, agreed.
(I agree with you about how best to play Turkey, too.)
I will try hard not to give you any signs of my incompetence!

But as I mentioned last time, I have to put the fleet somewhere. So I
intend to put it in Rumania, which is not exactly ideal for planning an
attack on Austria. If you have any suggestions, they will be welcome.

Tsar Jamie

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Hm, that's interesting.
My gut feeling is that you shouldn't be meddling in the North just yet.

My relationship with John is just the average one. He says he won't contest
Sweden, and I certainly don't intent to get involved in any anti-German
activities, but neither have I made anything like a promise to help
Germany, say, into the North Sea, or anything like that.

You might try getting Austrian permission to have the A Ven in Tyrolia. And
telling France you will go to Tyrolia. Then you can play against Munich or
play to help out Germany, depending on how things look in the north. Using
Italy in the classic Balance of Power way. It's a little dicier than a
vanilla Lepanto with all dogs piling on Turkey, but sticking your neck out
might be called for in this particular game.

My big question is, what is Hohn up to? Maybe he thinks he'll be the odd
man out in the north and wants to make sure he has a little help. Or maybe
he's hoping to outblitz the blitzer, leaving the north mainly shared by
England and France, and hoping to get me and King Kal in a war by 1903 or
something. It's hard to believe that Hohn would want to have a long term
relationship with Kal. Even a master like Hohn is going to have trouble
playing France in a long term FE alliance!

Even though my viscera tell me it's impossible, we do have to worry just a
little about a possible FGE. What if Hohn is trying to make sure you will
be very tied up with Lepantoing and Germany? Yuck. That would be disastrous
for both of us.

By the way, Steve has now assured me that while he *used* to like to go
north as Turkey, he now (nowadays) thinks it's a bad idea, and he wants the
Black Sea empty. Still neither he nor Cyrille is talking enough for my
tastes. I'll be happy when one of them is obviously committed against the
other, and happier when we get Steve on the ropes. I feel that the opening
years are going to be somewhat tenuous for me. Assuming I get my two new
centers, I may have to build two units for the south and stay very weak in
the north. I'm not going to be comfortable until I can establish a
hedgehoggy position in both spheres. Geez, Russia is tough, it's been a
while. I hope I'm up to it! The only thing that's easing my anxiety is that
I remember that every good game I've ever had as Russia has started with a
solid RI alliance.

Well, you do what you think best with that A Ven. Just clear it with
Austria, that's the main thing.

Tsar J

Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Hello again:

I just received word from certain quarters that you are "quite afraid" of me.
If true, I have failed miserably (which is not surprising, since I haven't
spent the time I should have on my diplomacy).  My hope by being honest about
my intention to rule the southern waters was to allow you to keep your fleet
occupied elsewhere, for our joint benefit.  I now hear (as I say, I am neither
surprised nor offended) that you are likely preparing it for the open sea.

If true, I still hope that we find a way to work together, but I truly
wish not to spend the whole game (actually, I wish not to spend ANY of
the game, but I supose if wishes were horses....) having to worry about
someone (anyone) being able to move into the waters adjoining my beloved boot.

Anyway, my apologies for having made myself misunderstood to the point of
causing you apprehension.  I look forward to hearing from you.

Manus

Message from Russia to Master in 'pouchtoo':

I'm against extending the deadlines generally.
Did the person who requested it understand that there are separate
diplomacy periods for the minor phases? So in practice a half year will
take longer than a week, even with current deadline settings.

-Jamie

Message from Russia to Master in 'pouchtoo':

I'm against extending the deadlines generally.
Did the person who requested it understand that there are separate
diplomacy periods for the minor phases? So in practice a half year will
take longer than a week, even with current deadline settings.

-Jamie

Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Cal,

> I told him that, while I would like Belgium, I was going to let it be a

I take it you mean, "was _not_ going to let it be a..." above? ;)

> sticking point if the option was a two way attack on myself.  His response
> was that, since YOU were being so intractable over Belgium, he was willing
> to throw his lot in with me.  That's about where we left it.

Oh, brother.

I'm certainly not looking for three builds in 1901.

In any case, I'd much rather get you into BEL rather than see John in
there.

> I'm going to open as we agreed, neutralizing the Channel and moving my army

By this, I assume you mean that neither of us is going to move to the
Channel, I hope? :)

> to Yorkshire.  Presumably, I can convoy into Bel in the Fall and take Nwy as
> well.  We'll play it by ear on that til we see how John opens.  My hunch is
> that he won't move the fleet to Den and will have his own support on Bel in
> the Fall.  That's partly based on my feeling that he and Jamie won't
> conflict initially and John won't feel he has to consider bumping the Tsar
> out of Swe.
> All for now,
> Comments?

If you trust me enough, you might want to consider full Churchill, to
give you the flexibility of the convoy to NWY or to BEL.  I leave it
to your able discretion.

Hohn

Message from France to England in 'pouchtoo':

[DAMN!  I accidentally sent the below to Manus.  Shit, shit, shit!  I
got to used to sending you press to "I", from last game!  I'm really
sorry, Cal.  I hope it doesn't turn out to be a major screw-up!  I'm
sending him another letter asking him to disregard, but who knows if
he will do so or not.  Mea culpa, mea culpa.] :(

Cal,

> I told him that, while I would like Belgium, I was going to let it be a

I take it you mean, "was _not_ going to let it be a..." above? ;)

> sticking point if the option was a two way attack on myself.  His response
> was that, since YOU were being so intractable over Belgium, he was willing
> to throw his lot in with me.  That's about where we left it.

Oh, brother.

I'm certainly not looking for three builds in 1901.

In any case, I'd much rather get you into BEL rather than see John in
there.

> I'm going to open as we agreed, neutralizing the Channel and moving my army

By this, I assume you mean that neither of us is going to move to the
Channel, I hope? :)

> to Yorkshire.  Presumably, I can convoy into Bel in the Fall and take Nwy as
> well.  We'll play it by ear on that til we see how John opens.  My hunch is
> that he won't move the fleet to Den and will have his own support on Bel in
> the Fall.  That's partly based on my feeling that he and Jamie won't
> conflict initially and John won't feel he has to consider bumping the Tsar
> out of Swe.
> All for now,
> Comments?

If you trust me enough, you might want to consider full Churchill, to
give you the flexibility of the convoy to NWY or to BEL.  I leave it
to your able discretion.

Hohn

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

Hohn:

Looks like you have me confused with that other neighbor of yours to the
north.  I enclose herewith (as unread as possible) the mail you apparently
intended for King Kal.

Manus

>
> Read http://hydaspes.if.org/~judge/ before you do anything with this judge.
> If you can't read it on a web browser, email me and i'll send you a copy.
>
> I guess i'll have to say it again.  DO NOT CREATE ANY GAMES ON THIS JUDGE
> WITHOUT READING AND COMPLYING WITH THE REQUIREMENTS ON THAT PAGE.
>
> - The judge keeper.
>
> ==========================================================================
>
> Message from [email protected] as France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>
> Cal,
>
> > I told him that, while I would like Belgium, I was going to let it be a
>
> I take it you mean, "was _not_ going to let it be a..." above? ;)
>
> > sticking point if the option was a two way attack on myself.  His response
> > was that, since YOU were being so intractable over Belgium, he was willing
> > to throw his lot in with me.  That's about where we left it.
>
> Oh, brother.
>
> I'm certainly not looking for three builds in 1901.
>
> In any case, I'd much rather get you into BEL rather than see John in
> there.
>
> > I'm going to open as we agreed, neutralizing the Channel and moving my army
>
> By this, I assume you mean that neither of us is going to move to the
> Channel, I hope? :)
>
> > to Yorkshire.  Presumably, I can convoy into Bel in the Fall and take Nwy as
> > well.  We'll play it by ear on that til we see how John opens.  My hunch is
> > that he won't move the fleet to Den and will have his own support on Bel in
> > the Fall.  That's partly based on my feeling that he and Jamie won't
> > conflict initially and John won't feel he has to consider bumping the Tsar
> > out of Swe.
> > All for now,
> > Comments?
>
> If you trust me enough, you might want to consider full Churchill, to
> give you the flexibility of the convoy to NWY or to BEL.  I leave it
> to your able discretion.
>
> Hohn
>

Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,

> Message from [email protected] as Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
> Sorry to have taken a while to respond -- I was away for the weekend.
> You propose the possibility of a very interesting beer-run.  I will
> look into how such a thing would be received among my friends and
> neighbors (though God knows which are which at this stage) and get
> back to you on it....

Sounds good to me.  I think Cal is up for it.  Let me know what you
think.

BTW, as a courtesy, I'd like to ask you to please disregard the
idiotic mistake I made by accidentally sending you press meant for
Cal.  I got too used to Cal being Italy from ghodstoo, and therein
lied the error. :(

Hohn

Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,

> Message from [email protected] as Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
> Hohn:
> Looks like you have me confused with that other neighbor of yours to the
> north.  I enclose herewith (as unread as possible) the mail you apparently
> intended for King Kal.

Thank you kindly.  I appreciate it!

Shamefacedly yours,
Hohn

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Whether by design or accident, I just received a mail addressed from
Hohn to Cal concerning Channel DMZ policy and an English Belgium and
with strong anti-John tones.  Either Germany is on the blocks, or there's
a good F/G running a line past England and his probable friends, or
else there's a strong Western Triple working some pretty heavy-duty
deception.  I think it's a crapshoot which one, frankly.

Hohn theoretically wants Cal to open full Churchill, which is not, I bet,
what you want.

Manus

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

> > You propose the possibility of a very interesting beer-run.  I will
> > look into how such a thing would be received among my friends and
> > neighbors (though God knows which are which at this stage) and get
> > back to you on it....
>
> Sounds good to me.  I think Cal is up for it.  Let me know what you
> think.
>
One of my problems is that my most immediate neighbor is not very
communicative.  I consider this to be something that his not his fault
(new to the judge, away over in France, etc.), but the chances are very
good, I'm afraid, that I will not receive word back from Austria concerning
said beer-run.  So if I open otherwise, know that it was not for lack of
trying, but that I could not arrange it before the deadline.

> BTW, as a courtesy, I'd like to ask you to please disregard the
> idiotic mistake I made by accidentally sending you press meant for
> Cal.  I got too used to Cal being Italy from ghodstoo, and therein
> lied the error. :(
>
Understood.  I admit to reading a bit further than I should have -- I thought
maybe I was being sent it as a courtesy copy and there was something in it
for me.  There didn't seem to be any big state secrets, though, so no
harm done.

Manus

Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,

> One of my problems is that my most immediate neighbor is not very
> communicative.  I consider this to be something that his not his fault
> (new to the judge, away over in France, etc.), but the chances are very
> good, I'm afraid, that I will not receive word back from Austria concerning
> said beer-run.  So if I open otherwise, know that it was not for lack of
> trying, but that I could not arrange it before the deadline.

That's cool.  As long as "otherwise" is not some obscure synonym for
"Piedmont."  ;-)

If you do hear what you need to from Austria, I'd love to work with
you.

> Understood.  I admit to reading a bit further than I should have -- I thought
> maybe I was being sent it as a courtesy copy and there was something in it
> for me.  There didn't seem to be any big state secrets, though, so no
> harm done.

Indeed.  Thanks again.

Hohn

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

> That's cool.  As long as "otherwise" is not some obscure synonym for
> "Piedmont."  ;-)
>
We're going to get along pretty dang good if you keep making me laugh
like that!

> If you do hear what you need to from Austria, I'd love to work with you.
>
Even if I don't, I fully expect to be working with you at our earliest
opportunity, whenever it comes.  (In other words, I'm going to remember
that you promised me Munich.  :-)

Manus

Message from England to France in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as France to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>[DAMN!  I accidentally sent the below to Manus.  Shit, shit, shit!  I
>got to used to sending you press to "I", from last game!  I'm really
>sorry, Cal.  I hope it doesn't turn out to be a major screw-up!  I'm
>sending him another letter asking him to disregard, but who knows if
>he will do so or not.  Mea culpa, mea culpa.] :(


Doesn't look like there was anything incriminating there from either of our
points of view so I wouldn't worry about it.  I haven't been tempted to send
to the wrong country yet.  My problem is that I keep on typing "signon
ighodstoo" when instead of "signon epouchtoo" when I start a letter...  :)

>> I told him that, while I would like Belgium, I was going to let it be a
>
>I take it you mean, "was _not_ going to let it be a..." above? ;)


Okay, so I type these letters (usually) after work when I'm tired... :)

>> sticking point if the option was a two way attack on myself.  His
response
>> was that, since YOU were being so intractable over Belgium, he was
willing
>> to throw his lot in with me.  That's about where we left it.
>
>Oh, brother.
>
>I'm certainly not looking for three builds in 1901.
>
>In any case, I'd much rather get you into BEL rather than see John in
>there.

Hey, that works for me...

>> I'm going to open as we agreed, neutralizing the Channel and moving my
army
>
>By this, I assume you mean that neither of us is going to move to the
>Channel, I hope? :)


Yup.  Initial bounces are so wasteful.

>> to Yorkshire.  Presumably, I can convoy into Bel in the Fall and take Nwy
as
>> well.  We'll play it by ear on that til we see how John opens.  My hunch
is
>> that he won't move the fleet to Den and will have his own support on Bel
in
>> the Fall.  That's partly based on my feeling that he and Jamie won't
>> conflict initially and John won't feel he has to consider bumping the
Tsar
>> out of Swe.
>> All for now,
>> Comments?
>
>If you trust me enough, you might want to consider full Churchill, to
>give you the flexibility of the convoy to NWY or to BEL.  I leave it
>to your able discretion.


I think A Lpl-Edi would alarm Russia far more than I want.

Til the moves

King Kal

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Thanks for the tip.  A Lepanto is a possibility, but honestly right now
>my only plan is to move to the ION and secure Tunis.  I have let Turkey
>know many times of my intention to open to the ION (rather than TYS),
>hoping NOT to alarm him when it happens.  I am sorry to hear that this
>has had the reverse effect.  I have also told him flat-out that my desire
>is to rule the waves down here; my hope being that he would not challenge
>that, and that therefore I would have no need to move east with my fleets,
>as a Lepanto would have me do.
>
>Frankly, Fall 1901 is a huge mystery to me right now.  I suppose you could
>discreetly pass this back to him.  Don't want anybody afraid of little
>old me....


Spoken like a TRUE Diplomacy shark...laff.  Anyway, I see where you got your
info from.  Hohn wrote me and told me of his little faux pas.  Good to know.

I'll see what I can do in regards to Turkey.

Cal

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

> Spoken like a TRUE Diplomacy shark...laff.
>
Why, thanks (I think).

> Anyway, I see where you got your
> info from.  Hohn wrote me and told me of his little faux pas.  Good to know.
>
Actually, the faux pas only just happened (about a half-hour ago).  I had
earlier confirmation of anti-German, pro-English feelings in France.  If
anything can be believed, of course.

> I'll see what I can do in regards to Turkey.
>
No biggie, but as an honorary witch, I appreciate all the help I can get.

Manus

Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Dear Kaiser John,

There are a couple of fairly good reasons to think that there's a
FrancoEnglish alliance afoot.

I got the information on condition of not repeating it, but either there's
an elaborate hoax being perpetrated or you're marked. England gets Belgium.
King Kal opens Churchill (which I don't like at all, of course).

If it's a hoax, then my bet is you are in on it, and there's going to be a
full-fledged FGE alliance, in which case nothing I'm going to say to you
will matter much. So you'd be in a good position to rule that one out, if
it's possible to rule it out! Of all the ways the NW could fall out, FE is
my least favorite (except for the dreaded FEG), so I'll do what I can to
prevent it, but I can't see that that will be much. I am discouraging Italy
>from opening to Tyrolia, for what that's worth.

Unless some huge and unexpected news comes in tomorrow, I'm going three
south, so I won't be much help right away if you need me. But I will
complain loudly if England looks like he's playing a Churchill. Sure, that
always works, complaining loudly.

Maybe I'm worrying for nothing. Maybe you have this all worked out with one
of them and he's just stringing the other one along. Hope so.

Best wishes,
Tsar Jamie

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Yuck.

Maybe I'll try to warn John a little. What am I allowed to tell him?

Tsar Jamie

Message from England to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Steve: for what it's worth, Italy doesn't seem committed to the Lepanto
opening (it's an option of course, but I don't think he's planning past S01
right now).

One witch to another  :)

King Kal

Message from Germany to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Jamie,

Thanks for the info.  No, I am not in on any grand scheme.  Looks as if a
Hohn-Cal conspiracy to do me wrong is underfoot yet again.  What to do,
what to do...?

John

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

Cal,

Rumors are coming my way that you and Hohn are planning to strike at me.  I
hope this is not true.  If it is, I hope I can persuade you that a better
course lies open to you.  FYI, Hohn asked me about anti-E but I said I was
not interested so he would not attack you.  In light of recent rumors,
maybe we can turn this around to mutual advantage, ie, first-turn strike
against France.  If Hohn does think you are allies, Lon-Ech becomes very
attractive.  Interested?

John, Germany

Message from Turkey to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Helloooooo Manus,
>I just received word from certain quarters that you are "quite afraid" of
me.

I'm shakin'.  Truth is I had to portray SOMEBODY as the bad guy.
>If true, I have failed miserably (which is not surprising, since I haven't
spent the time I should have on my diplomacy).  My hope by being honest
about
>my intention to rule the southern waters was to allow you to keep your
fleet occupied elsewhere, for our joint benefit.  I now hear (as I say, I am
neither
>surprised nor offended) that you are likely preparing it for the open sea.

I don't believe I ever told you I would go to the Bla on S'01, but that does
not mean I'm Aeg bound.  However, I am loathe to commit to an attack on
Russia with no apparent help.  So, I'll try not to tip my hand just yet.
I'll say this a fall move is not out of the question, especially if you're
serious because I know (or don't believe) an R-T could not succeed in a game
like this anyway.
>
>If true, I still hope that we find a way to work together, but I truly
>wish not to spend the whole game (actually, I wish not to spend ANY of
>the game, but I supose if wishes were horses....) having to worry about
>someone (anyone) being able to move into the waters adjoining my beloved
boot.

I understand, but Aeg is more vital to me than Ion is to you.  Austria's
fleet is heading to Gre.  We either have to commit to doing something about
him or I am almost forced to occupy Aeg to protect my backdoor.
>
>Anyway, my apologies for having made myself misunderstood to the point of
causing you apprehension.  I look forward to hearing from you.

Listen, I'm not REALLY paranoid, but as a witch I want a little sympathy.
I'm not committed to anyone yet.  I'm waiting for someone to meet me halfway
on one of my schemes.  That's it.  Work with me and I'm your ally por vida
(for life).

Later,

Steve.

Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Helloooooo!

Well, I'm glad to know we're both of like mind.  Specifically, we have
no plans at all.

I agree with you that the Austrian fleet is a worry to us both.  Doing
something about it should be a priority.

I wasn't expecting or even hoping you move to BLA on the first (or even
second) move; I just want to be everyone's friend, and since my Tunis
build will be a fleet, I want you to keep liking me.  I'm a needy sot.
:-)

Sorry so short,

Manus

Message from Turkey to England in 'pouchtoo':

Your Highness,



>Tough luck on your part as Hohn couldn't have gotten Turkey anyway - he
played it in the demo game ghodstoo which just finished.

Well, it's a little too late to help me.
> I certainly agree Hohn IS a tough player, but there are no rookies in this
game.  Anybody who
>has a good result here will have earned it.

Actually, he usually exerts his will over the weak, so that probably won't
work here.

Even so, I wouldn't bet against him opening to the Channel.  It's become a
favorite out here, with G getting  support to Nth in the fall.  We'll see...

Sultan Steve

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Rumors are coming my way that you and Hohn are planning to strike at me.  I
>hope this is not true.  If it is, I hope I can persuade you that a better
>course lies open to you.  FYI, Hohn asked me about anti-E but I said I was
>not interested so he would not attack you.  In light of recent rumors,
>maybe we can turn this around to mutual advantage, ie, first-turn strike
>against France.  If Hohn does think you are allies, Lon-Ech becomes very
>attractive.  Interested?


Don't know who's spreading rumours because they are based completely on
speculation.  To be completely honest, no one could know my plans because I
haven't decided on any yet!  You and I haven't written much and Hohn has
been out of town.  That's made it hard to make any decisions so the only
option I've had has been to open neutrally.  I'm going to try NOT to
antagonize any of you, France or Russia (certainly for the first turn) while
leaving myself room defensively should there be an F/G.  Obviously, this
fence sitting can't continue, but it seems to be the best move ca S'01.

We'll definitely talk about this further after tonight's results.

King Kal

Message from England to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Turkey to England in 'pouchtoo':


>Even so, I wouldn't bet against him opening to the Channel.  It's become a
>favorite out here, with G getting  support to Nth in the fall.  We'll
see...

I consider myself warned... :)

King Kal

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

King Kal:

Okay, then I'll wait for the results to be known.  Maybe Hohn was spreading
some unfounded rumors to affect events elsewhere.

Kaiser John

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>King Kal:
>
>Okay, then I'll wait for the results to be known.  Maybe Hohn was spreading
>some unfounded rumors to affect events elsewhere.


I wouldn't be surprised.  I'm getting some innuendo from "Eastern sources"
that has his touch all over it... grin.

Just to reassure you, I'm not at all averse to taking on France.  I'm pretty
sure Hohn DOES believe that I'm with him in an attack on you and I'm not
going to disabuse him of the notion.  The way I see it (and this point of
view is obviously in my own self-interest), if he thinks we're attacking
you, he's more likely to build a pair of armies.  I'm know you wouldn't be
thrilled by that, but, boy, it sure would leave him open to English fleets
sweeping down from the north!

We'll know more tonight...

King Kal

Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Looks as if a
>Hohn-Cal conspiracy to do me wrong is underfoot yet again.  What to do,
>what to do...?

I dunno. But I think you'll manage something.
I tried one of those conspiracies once. Didn't work out.

Tsar Jamie

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