| Press for Spring of 1914 in ruffians |
Movement
Message from Austria to Russia in 'ruffians':
Cal. hhhhhh. I thought you'd do that. ;)
Ok. My plan is to push into the Ruhr in the spring, so move to Berlin now,
is a go, K?
It seems that an army in Finland is the next logical step. Thoughts?
Chris
Message from Austria to Turkey in 'ruffians':
Meef,
Ugh. South coast? That's not according to plan. well, not much I can do
about it, right?
Ok, here is my thinking. I had originally suggested
F Ion -> Tun
F Aeg -> Ion
This still looks good to me, followed by
F Tun -> Naf
F Ion -> Tunis
It commits you to the Atlantic push, gives you a center for home D, and
leaves me feeling warm and fuzzy. ;)
I am assuming you will want to move F Smy -> Con to support Bul in the fall.
I would much rather you did that than moved Smy -> Aeg. Again, that would
just make me really, really nervous.
In the Fall, I will move F Greece -> Ionian, and we can bounce in Greece if
you want, with Rumania hitting Serbia. I know this is all rather elaborate,
but it really is starting to take shape. Let me know your thoughts. You
mentioned at one point that you would feel too strung out -- I hope that my
unit placement has done a little to alleviate that feeling, and that we can
balance that with my feeling of being exposed! ;)
Best,
Chris
Message from Turkey to Russia in 'ruffians':
Cal,
Chris's latest at bottom.
It appears we r on track with:
1. r/t stay solid
2. Keep Austria headed away from us.
3. Not alienate England.
4. Get Tunis and Ber w/o alienating Chris.
5. Keep England at bay.
6. Creep forward without minimal alarm
7. Keep Austria confused.
I am thinking
F Ion -> Tun
F Aeg -> Ion
followed by
F Tun -> Naf
F Ion -> Tunis
is good 4 us.
F Smy -> Con to support Bul in the fall.
seems reasonable also.
If we gain tun and ber this year, I will feel pretty good about our
position. I would be nice to rig the f tun - naf to bounce and I have a
fleet in tun, ion at the beginning of 1915.
Thoughts?
Meef
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 10:29 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
>
>
> This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> Report problems with individual games to your GM.
>
> Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
>
> ***********************************************************
> Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> ***********************************************************
>
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Turkey in
> 'ruffians':
>
>
> Meef,
>
> Ugh. South coast? That's not according to plan. well, not much I can do
> about it, right?
>
> Ok, here is my thinking. I had originally suggested
>
> F Ion -> Tun
> F Aeg -> Ion
>
> This still looks good to me, followed by
>
> F Tun -> Naf
> F Ion -> Tunis
>
> It commits you to the Atlantic push, gives you a center for home D, and
> leaves me feeling warm and fuzzy. ;)
>
> I am assuming you will want to move F Smy -> Con to support Bul
> in the fall.
> I would much rather you did that than moved Smy -> Aeg. Again, that would
> just make me really, really nervous.
>
> In the Fall, I will move F Greece -> Ionian, and we can bounce in
> Greece if
> you want, with Rumania hitting Serbia. I know this is all rather
> elaborate,
> but it really is starting to take shape. Let me know your
> thoughts. You
> mentioned at one point that you would feel too strung out -- I
> hope that my
> unit placement has done a little to alleviate that feeling, and
> that we can
> balance that with my feeling of being exposed! ;)
>
> Best,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
Message from England to Russia and Turkey in 'ruffians':
Friends,
Cal, could you do me the favour of moving StP-Livonia? That would make me
feel securer when the fall arrives...:)
I will now enter Med (or atleast try) I hope that is OK with you. I do not
know why Paul kept the fleets and disbanded an army, he probably thinks
Chris is telling the truth again.
anyway,
the best to you
Christian
Broadcast message from Germany in 'ruffians':
Oh no! Not another Russian F StP sc! Well, it can't hurt me as much
this time!
Paul
Message from Austria to Germany in 'ruffians':
You can say that again. Dammit, I was hoping for F Sev. or F StP (nc)! ;)
If you will remember a few years back, I was in a situation with Italy,
where we were fighting the English. I had stabbed him, but he was still
alive, and in fact, his position was quite playable. But, he wouldn't work
with me.
I feel like we are in a similar situation. I have stabbed you, but your
position is not dead. Your fleets especially are important in keeping
england out of the Med.
So, at this juncture, I would like to offer you what aid I can, and what aid
you want. I will continue to support Denmark from Kiel, if that is what you
desire. I am planning on entering the Ruhr, unless you do not want that.
If you would support me into Marsailles, I would aid you on that front as
well.
Looking at the map, I think the centers that you have which are defendable
are Denmark, Holland, and Belgium. With my army support, England should be
unable to force those three.
I didn't want to eliminate Italy -- but he would not work with me in reduced
circumstances. It'd my judgement that you are perhaps more practical than
that You cant get revenge on me later if you are eliminated by England! ;)
Let me know to what extent you are interested.
Chris
Message from Germany to Austria in 'ruffians':
>
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Germany in 'ruffians':
>
> I have stabbed you, but your
> position is not dead. Your fleets especially are important in keeping
> england out of the Med.
Well, I think that it is Christian himself who is AFRAID of entering the Med!
>
> So, at this juncture, I would like to offer you what aid I can, and what aid
> you want. I will continue to support Denmark from Kiel, if that is what you
> desire. I am planning on entering the Ruhr, unless you do not want that.
Yeah, I'll take the support in Den, and your A Ruhr might prove useful in
keeping
Hol/Bel alive.
>
> If you would support me into Marsailles, I would aid you on that front as
> well.
At least you're still talking to me! Okay, you have the support to Mar (again).
>
>
> Looking at the map, I think the centers that you have which are defendable
> are Denmark, Holland, and Belgium. With my army support, England should be
> unable to force those three.
>
> I didn't want to eliminate Italy -- but he would not work with me in reduced
> circumstances. It'd my judgement that you are perhaps more practical than
> that You cant get revenge on me later if you are eliminated by England! ;)
Right now, survival is more the word than "revenge". And so, I'll take a deep
breath
and trust you...again.
Paul
>
>
> Let me know to what extent you are interested.
>
> Chris
Message from Austria to Germany in 'ruffians':
Paul,
<<Well, I think that it is Christian himself who is AFRAID of entering the
Med!>>
Well, you wont hear me complaining! ;)
<<Yeah, I'll take the support in Den, and your A Ruhr might prove useful in
keeping
Hol/Bel alive.>>
I hope so. Ok, support for Den it is, and Mun -> Ruhr.
<<At least you're still talking to me! Okay, you have the support to Mar
(again).>>
One of the biggest mistakes I see people make is stopping talking. I hope
there is ALWAYS something to talk about. Even if it is non-dip related.
One of my main complaints about dip tourneys is that there isn't enough time
alloted to get to know the other players. DixieCon has a bar-b-que night,
and that is one of the reasons I love the con.
It'll be A Piedmont moving, with F GoL hitting spain to cut support. Thanks
again.
Chris
Message from England to Austria in
'ruffians':
Chris,
I know you have promised Turkey Tunis in exchange for him stabbing Russia.
I am sure he will not stab Russia.
You and I both want this to be over to be able to spend time with our
little ones. Let�s take Paul out this year and suggest a fourway to RT.
Here is my proposal:
Austria:
A Pie-Rom
F Lyo C A Pie-Rom
F Trn C A Pie-Rom
A Kie S (English) A Swe-Den
A Ber S A Kie
A Mun-Ruh
A Boh whatever
A Bud whatever
A Trl-Mun
F Greece-ION
England:
F Mar hold
F Spa(sc) s F Mar
F MAO-Wes
F Eng S A Lon-Bel
A Lon-Nth-Bel
F Ska S A Swe-Den
A Bre-Par
A Swe-Den
This way I capture Belgium or Paris this turn, you get Bel or Hol in the
fall. Also you can take Naples or Tunis back depending on where he goes. If
he moves to Nap you take it back with Rome and TRN, if he moves to Tunis I
support you with F Wes AS LONG AS YOU DIDN'T TRY TO WORK WITH PAUL AGAIN.
What do you think?
all the best
Christian
PS Why did you waive the build???
Message from Russia to Austria in 'ruffians':
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Russia in
'ruffians':
> Cal. hhhhhh. I thought you'd do that. ;)
I wasn't really left much choice.
> Ok. My plan is to push into the Ruhr in the spring, so move to Berlin
now,
> is a go, K?
Okay. Any preferences for my other armies? I think a followup from War-Pru
would look good to Christian, do you think?
> It seems that an army in Finland is the next logical step. Thoughts?
That, I really don't follow as an army build would not make sense and doing
that and then moving to Fin would leave St Pete's open. Unless, of course,
this is a thinly veiled attempt to get me to pull my southern armies back?
d;-})
Cal
Message from Russia to Turkey in 'ruffians':
> Message from [email protected] as Turkey to Russia in 'ruffians':
>
> Chris's latest at bottom.
>
> It appears we r on track with:
>
> 1. r/t stay solid
> 2. Keep Austria headed away from us.
> 3. Not alienate England.
> 4. Get Tunis and Ber w/o alienating Chris.
> 5. Keep England at bay.
> 6. Creep forward without minimal alarm
> 7. Keep Austria confused.
Yup. looking good, but it's still a tightrope we're on. We have to take
Chris down while not leaving Christian the pening to bottle us up on the St
Pete-Tun line. Somehow we have to cross it, especially on land.
> I am thinking
>
> F Ion -> Tun
> F Aeg -> Ion
>
> followed by
>
> F Tun -> Naf
> F Ion -> Tunis
>
> is good 4 us.
>
> F Smy -> Con to support Bul in the fall.
>
> seems reasonable also.
>
> If we gain tun and ber this year, I will feel pretty good about our
> position. I would be nice to rig the f tun - naf to bounce and I have a
> fleet in tun, ion at the beginning of 1915.
>
> Thoughts?
I like it a lot. I believe we can work something out with Christian to
arrange that Naf bounce. Once that's done, we can probably make our big
grab at Chris.
I'll write later with anything I hear.
Cal
Message from Russia to England and Turkey in
'ruffians':
> Message from [email protected] as England to Russia and
> Turkey in 'ruffians':
>
>
> Friends,
>
> Cal, could you do me the favour of moving StP-Livonia? That would make me
> feel securer when the fall arrives...:)
That will look weird to Chris, but I think it can be done. He's accepted my
fleet on the south coast as something that had to be done to appease you, so
I can probably play with that for another turn.
> I will now enter Med (or atleast try) I hope that is OK with you. I do not
> know why Paul kept the fleets and disbanded an army, he probably thinks
> Chris is telling the truth again.
I'd rather that you didn't enter the Med in force. I'm hopeful that you and
Meef can work out some tactics that will a) make it look like a E/T war and
help Meef set up for a stab of Austria. You guys work out what is best,
okay?
Later,
Cal
Message from England to Russia and Turkey in 'ruffians':
>That will look weird to Chris, but I think it can be done. He's accepted my
>fleet on the south coast as something that had to be done to appease you, so
>I can probably play with that for another turn.
OK.
>I'd rather that you didn't enter the Med in force. I'm hopeful that you and
>Meef can work out some tactics that will a) make it look like a E/T war and
>help Meef set up for a stab of Austria. You guys work out what is best,
>okay?
I will not enter with force, I need to support Marseilles preventing Chris
from getting it with an army. All it takes is one of you whisepring in
Chris� ears that I am not supporting myself. That would mean a bounce and
that one of you get some credibilty towards Chris. Good?
Meef, what do we do? I guess you will go for Tunis, if that is what Chris
"promised" you. That way you will still be able to stab him alternatively
if he bounces you in Tunis you can always claim "look, I did �what we agreed".
all the best
Christian
Message from Turkey to England and Russia in 'ruffians':
Christian,
This is Chris' proposal:
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Turkey in
> 'ruffians':
>
>
> Meef,
>
> Ugh. South coast? That's not according to plan. well, not much I can do
> about it, right?
>
> Ok, here is my thinking. I had originally suggested
>
> F Ion -> Tun
> F Aeg -> Ion
>
> This still looks good to me, followed by
>
> F Tun -> Naf
> F Ion -> Tunis
>
> It commits you to the Atlantic push, gives you a center for home D, and
> leaves me feeling warm and fuzzy. ;)
>
...
My thought is to accept and follow that plan exactly. I request that u
position yourself to keep me out of naf so where I can be in tun and ion at
the end of this year. I will gain a build and have control of Ion.
Thoughts on how to proceed?
Meef
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 6:57 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
>
>
> This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> Report problems with individual games to your GM.
>
> Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
>
> ***********************************************************
> Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> ***********************************************************
>
> Message from [email protected] as England to Russia and
> Turkey in 'ruffians':
>
>
> >That will look weird to Chris, but I think it can be done. He's
> accepted my
> >fleet on the south coast as something that had to be done to
> appease you, so
> >I can probably play with that for another turn.
> OK.
>
> >I'd rather that you didn't enter the Med in force. I'm hopeful
> that you and
> >Meef can work out some tactics that will a) make it look like a
> E/T war and
> >help Meef set up for a stab of Austria. You guys work out what is best,
> >okay?
> I will not enter with force, I need to support Marseilles preventing Chris
> from getting it with an army. All it takes is one of you whisepring in
> Chris� ears that I am not supporting myself. That would mean a bounce and
> that one of you get some credibilty towards Chris. Good?
>
> Meef, what do we do? I guess you will go for Tunis, if that is what Chris
> "promised" you. That way you will still be able to stab him alternatively
> if he bounces you in Tunis you can always claim "look, I did
> �what we agreed".
>
> all the best
> Christian
>
>
>
>
>
Message from Turkey to Austria in 'ruffians':
Chris,
Your plan sounds good to me. I will proceed as outlined below.
Meef
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 10:29 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
>
>
> This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> Report problems with individual games to your GM.
>
> Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
>
> ***********************************************************
> Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> ***********************************************************
>
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Turkey in
> 'ruffians':
>
>
> Meef,
>
> Ugh. South coast? That's not according to plan. well, not much I can do
> about it, right?
>
> Ok, here is my thinking. I had originally suggested
>
> F Ion -> Tun
> F Aeg -> Ion
>
> This still looks good to me, followed by
>
> F Tun -> Naf
> F Ion -> Tunis
>
> It commits you to the Atlantic push, gives you a center for home D, and
> leaves me feeling warm and fuzzy. ;)
>
> I am assuming you will want to move F Smy -> Con to support Bul
> in the fall.
> I would much rather you did that than moved Smy -> Aeg. Again, that would
> just make me really, really nervous.
>
> In the Fall, I will move F Greece -> Ionian, and we can bounce in
> Greece if
> you want, with Rumania hitting Serbia. I know this is all rather
> elaborate,
> but it really is starting to take shape. Let me know your
> thoughts. You
> mentioned at one point that you would feel too strung out -- I
> hope that my
> unit placement has done a little to alleviate that feeling, and
> that we can
> balance that with my feeling of being exposed! ;)
>
> Best,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
Message from Turkey to Russia in 'ruffians':
fyi
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 7:58 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: RE: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
>
>
> This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> Report problems with individual games to your GM.
>
> Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
>
> ***********************************************************
> Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> ***********************************************************
>
> :: Judge: USEF Game: Ruffians Variant: Standard
> :: Deadline: S1914M Fri Feb 11 2000 23:30:00 PST
>
> Message sent to Austria:
>
> Message from [email protected] as Turkey to Austria in 'ruffians':
>
>
> Chris,
>
> Your plan sounds good to me. I will proceed as outlined below.
>
> Meef
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 10:29 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
> >
> >
> > This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> > Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> > Report problems with individual games to your GM.
> >
> > Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
> >
> > ***********************************************************
> > Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> > (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> > if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> > ***********************************************************
> >
> > Message from [email protected] as Austria to Turkey in
> > 'ruffians':
> >
> >
> > Meef,
> >
> > Ugh. South coast? That's not according to plan. well, not
> much I can do
> > about it, right?
> >
> > Ok, here is my thinking. I had originally suggested
> >
> > F Ion -> Tun
> > F Aeg -> Ion
> >
> > This still looks good to me, followed by
> >
> > F Tun -> Naf
> > F Ion -> Tunis
> >
> > It commits you to the Atlantic push, gives you a center for home D, and
> > leaves me feeling warm and fuzzy. ;)
> >
> > I am assuming you will want to move F Smy -> Con to support Bul
> > in the fall.
> > I would much rather you did that than moved Smy -> Aeg. Again,
> that would
> > just make me really, really nervous.
> >
> > In the Fall, I will move F Greece -> Ionian, and we can bounce in
> > Greece if
> > you want, with Rumania hitting Serbia. I know this is all rather
> > elaborate,
> > but it really is starting to take shape. Let me know your
> > thoughts. You
> > mentioned at one point that you would feel too strung out -- I
> > hope that my
> > unit placement has done a little to alleviate that feeling, and
> > that we can
> > balance that with my feeling of being exposed! ;)
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> End of message.
>
> Movement orders for Spring of 1914. (ruffians.062)
>
> Turkey: Fleet Aegean Sea, No Order Processed.
> Turkey: Fleet Ionian Sea, No Order Processed.
> Turkey: Fleet Bulgaria (south coast), No Order Processed.
> Turkey: Fleet Smyrna, No Order Processed.
>
>
> Orders not received for all units. If complete orders are not
> received by Fri Feb 11 2000 23:30:00 PST, you will be considered late.
> You will be considered abandoned if nothing is received by
> Fri Feb 18 2000 23:30:00 PST.
>
>
Message from Austria to Turkey in 'ruffians':
Meef,
I just got an interesting letter from England -- in it he says "I know you
promised Turkey Tunis in exchange for a stab of Russia!"
This is a beautiful piece of dis-information. Did it come from you or Cal?
And moving the fleet to Con will only serve to re-inforce the idea.
Any other thoughts or concerns at this point? My wife and baby are back
home, so it is going to be hard to communicate as much or as often. (what
will you do without me to browbeat you? ;)
Best,
Chris
Message from Austria to England in 'ruffians':
Christian,
Well, you must think I'm a pretty good diplomat if I can convince Turkey to
give me Greece this year in return for stabbing Russia next year + Tunis.
And he pulled F Black Sea -- yep, yep, he and I are in Cahoots!
<<You and I both want this to be over to be able to spend time with our
little ones. Let�s take Paul out this year and suggest a fourway to RT.>>
This is certainly true. I have zero time right now. Have you felt Cal out
about the four way?
I am looking at the map -- the moves look good . . . Let me see if I can
cover my back while I do this.
Chris
Message from England to Turkey in
'ruffians':
>My thought is to accept and follow that plan exactly. I request that u
>position yourself to keep me out of naf so where I can be in tun and ion at
>the end of this year. I will gain a build and have control of Ion.
>Thoughts on how to proceed?
This seems very good, something like what I had in mind. I will be in
position to bounce you of NAf next turn.
/Christian
Message from England to Austria in
'ruffians':
>I am looking at the map -- the moves look good . . . Let me see if I can
>cover my back while I do this.
I think Cal will join in if presented with facts. Please get back to me
when you know if we�re "on" or not.
BTW, Meef tells me he�s going to go along with the Tunis thing but not the
NAf thing, if you know what I mean.
Christian
Message from Turkey to England in 'ruffians':
Christian,
Cool.
Chris asked me the following question:
> Meef,
>
> I just got an interesting letter from England -- in it he says "I know you
> promised Turkey Tunis in exchange for a stab of Russia!"
>
> This is a beautiful piece of dis-information. Did it come from
> you or Cal?
> And moving the fleet to Con will only serve to re-inforce the idea.
>
> Any other thoughts or concerns at this point? My wife and baby are back
> home, so it is going to be hard to communicate as much or as often. (what
> will you do without me to browbeat you? ;)
>
> Best,
>
> Chris
I am not sure how or even if I should answer this question. I do not want
to talk to much and it backfire on me. Chris is a sharp cookie. Thoughts
on how to approach?
Meef
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 1:29 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
>
>
> This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> Report problems with individual games to your GM.
>
> Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
>
> ***********************************************************
> Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> ***********************************************************
>
> Message from [email protected] as England to Turkey in
> 'ruffians':
>
>
>
> >My thought is to accept and follow that plan exactly. I request that u
> >position yourself to keep me out of naf so where I can be in tun
> and ion at
> >the end of this year. I will gain a build and have control of Ion.
> >Thoughts on how to proceed?
>
> This seems very good, something like what I had in mind. I will be in
> position to bounce you of NAf next turn.
>
> /Christian
>
>
>
>
>
Message from Austria to Master in 'ruffians':
Rick, I am going to need a weeks extension, please! Can we set the
deadline for next Thursday?
Thanks, I think this will be the last one. The apartment is finally taking
shape.
Chris
Message from Austria to Russia in 'ruffians':
Cal,
Troubling, troubling news. Christian approached me yesterday, and said,
"hey, lets finish this thing off. We can eliminate Paul and set a four way
draw."
So far no problem. Then he says "I know you promised Meef Tunis in exchange
for stabbing russia. But I am sure he wont stab Russia!"
hmmmm.
I deny everything, saying "yeah, sure, He'd give me greece for tunis, and
pull F Black if he was stabbing Russia." however, I say, hmm, could do the
eliminate Paul thing.
Ok, he writes back, and says "Cal should be willing to go for the 4 way,
once its clear we (A/E) aren't fighting. Oh, and btw, Meef tells me he is
going to do the Tunis thing but not the NAF thing, if you know what I mean."
Meef, in the meantime, has said "Ok, I'll be moving as planned. Ionian ->
Tunis, Aegean -> Ionian, and in the Fall Ionian -> Tunis, Tunis -> Naf."
I can't think of any reason YOU would reveal all of this to Christian. I
mean, you don't want me ignoring Christian, giving him time and resources in
the north, right? So Meef is playing Me two ways. And in turn, playing US
two ways.
I come to you with this, because I really don't want to move on Meef without
you, If I am to move on him at all. I know you are going to look at all of
this with a grain of salt. Ok, maybe a whole salt lick. But if Meef is
planning on stabbing me, I am planning on stopping him.
I am going out of town (For ARMADA in denver and some swing workshops I am
teaching. I will be aroung tomorrow, and back monday. I hope we can work
something out.
Chris
Message from Russia to Austria in 'ruffians':
Hmm, interesting stuff. I'm going to have to think about this and get back
to you.
Cal
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Russia in
'ruffians':
>
>
> Cal,
>
> Troubling, troubling news. Christian approached me yesterday, and said,
> "hey, lets finish this thing off. We can eliminate Paul and set a four
way
> draw."
>
> So far no problem. Then he says "I know you promised Meef Tunis in
exchange
> for stabbing russia. But I am sure he wont stab Russia!"
>
> hmmmm.
>
> I deny everything, saying "yeah, sure, He'd give me greece for tunis, and
> pull F Black if he was stabbing Russia." however, I say, hmm, could do
the
> eliminate Paul thing.
>
> Ok, he writes back, and says "Cal should be willing to go for the 4 way,
> once its clear we (A/E) aren't fighting. Oh, and btw, Meef tells me he is
> going to do the Tunis thing but not the NAF thing, if you know what I
mean."
>
> Meef, in the meantime, has said "Ok, I'll be moving as planned. Ionian ->
> Tunis, Aegean -> Ionian, and in the Fall Ionian -> Tunis, Tunis -> Naf."
>
> I can't think of any reason YOU would reveal all of this to Christian. I
> mean, you don't want me ignoring Christian, giving him time and resources
in
> the north, right? So Meef is playing Me two ways. And in turn, playing
US
> two ways.
>
> I come to you with this, because I really don't want to move on Meef
without
> you, If I am to move on him at all. I know you are going to look at all
of
> this with a grain of salt. Ok, maybe a whole salt lick. But if Meef is
> planning on stabbing me, I am planning on stopping him.
>
> I am going out of town (For ARMADA in denver and some swing workshops I am
> teaching. I will be aroung tomorrow, and back monday. I hope we can work
> something out.
>
> Chris
Broadcast message from Germany in 'ruffians':
>
> Broadcast message from [email protected] as Master in 'ruffians':
>
> Extension for player with infant. You get to guess which one.
>
> Rick
What is it with the Turkish players in this game?
Paul
Message from Turkey to Germany in 'ruffians':
Kaiser Paul,
Are u under the impression I am not a factor in this game?
Sultan MiKal
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 5:53 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
>
>
> This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> Report problems with individual games to your GM.
>
> Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
>
> ***********************************************************
> Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> ***********************************************************
>
> Broadcast message from [email protected] as Germany in 'ruffians':
>
>
> >
> > Broadcast message from [email protected] as Master in
> 'ruffians':
> >
> > Extension for player with infant. You get to guess which one.
> >
> > Rick
>
> What is it with the Turkish players in this game?
>
> Paul
>
>
>
Broadcast message from Observer in 'ruffians':
Hello,
Maps for this game will be available at this address :
http://www.onesite.org/observer/request.php3?judge=USEF&gamename=ruffians
This system is quite new and there may still be some bugs, mail me at
[email protected] in case of problem or if you have any suggestion.
Alain
Message from Russia to Austria in 'ruffians':
>Message from [email protected] as Austria to Russia in 'ruffians':
<Lotsa stuff about Meef consorting with the enemy snipped>
>I can't think of any reason YOU would reveal all of this to Christian. I
>mean, you don't want me ignoring Christian, giving him time and resources
in
>the north, right? So Meef is playing Me two ways. And in turn, playing US
>two ways.
>I come to you with this, because I really don't want to move on Meef
without
>you, If I am to move on him at all. I know you are going to look at all of
>this with a grain of salt. Ok, maybe a whole salt lick. But if Meef is
>planning on stabbing me, I am planning on stopping him.
Well, it doesn't surprise me that Meef would be talking to Christian, but
I'm a bit surprised he'd be saying THAT sort of thing to him. I won't lie
to you: Meef HAS discussed the possibility of stabbing you with me and,
while I've considered it, I've tried to talk him out of it. My reasons are,
for once, the obvious ones: I can't risk you coming back on me with the
armies you now have in Germany and, if that DID happen, Christian would have
a chance to sweep through the German centres you vacate. Once he crossed
that line, he'd have a shot at the 18 (I have no illusions about my ability
to keep him out of St Pete's if he wants it back).
If Meef IS planning to stab, I haven't been told of it. I'll sound him out
and, once again, try to talk him out of it. Meanwhile, you cover your butt.
d;-})
Cal
Message from Turkey to Russia in 'ruffians':
Cal,
I request the following support for next season:
a rum s bul
Thanks Meef
Message from Russia to Turkey in 'ruffians':
>Message from [email protected] as Turkey to Russia in 'ruffians':
>
>I request the following support for next season:
>
>a rum s bul
Long time, no hear. Any news? I've been too busy to write lately and no
one's contacted me either. What's up?
I'll check the board when I get home, but I see no problel with that
support.
Cal
Message from Turkey to Russia in 'ruffians':
no new word
deals r set w/ Austria and England respectively. I think they r both busy
at being new fathers.
Message from Austria to Russia in 'ruffians':
Cal,
I'm back from Denver. It was fun, but I am stressed. What word from the
north?
Chris
Message from Austria to England in 'ruffians':
Christian,
just got back from Manus's convention in denver, and I was looking at the
board.
What you say makes sense. I can't see Russia and Turkey not taking a 4way
at this point, if we eliminate Germany this year. I am ok with your plan
except for one thing --
Please do not move to the Westmed. The move will bounce. I will handle the
turkish situation myself -- is that ok?
<<Here is my proposal:
Austria:
A Pie-Rom
F Lyo C A Pie-Rom
F Trn C A Pie-Rom
A Kie S (English) A Swe-Den
A Ber S A Kie
A Mun-Ruh
A Boh whatever
A Bud whatever
A Trl-Mun
F Greece-ION
England:
F Mar hold
F Spa(sc) s F Mar
F MAO-Wes
F Eng S A Lon-Bel
A Lon-Nth-Bel
F Ska S A Swe-Den
A Bre-Par
A Swe-Den>>
All of this is fine, as I say, except the Westmed part. In fact, I'd REALLY
prefer MAO -> Portugal or Gascony if you really intend a 4 way. It would
make the whole thing much more believable to me.
What say you?
Chris
Message from Austria to Germany in 'ruffians':
Paul,
Christian is trying to cut a deal with me. I have strung him along, and
this is the info I have gleaned:
<<Here is my proposal:
Austria:
A Pie-Rom
F Lyo C A Pie-Rom
F Trn C A Pie-Rom
A Kie S (English) A Swe-Den
A Ber S A Kie
A Mun-Ruh
A Boh whatever
A Bud whatever
A Trl-Mun
F Greece-ION
England:
F Mar hold
F Spa(sc) s F Mar
F MAO-Wes
F Eng S A Lon-Bel
A Lon-Nth-Bel
F Ska S A Swe-Den
A Bre-Par
A Swe-Den>>
As you can see, the North sea is being left unsupported. This leaves two
possibilities:
Dislodge the North Sea from Belgium ;)
Dislodge it from Helgoland Bight..
This is some form of a convoy paradox, isn't it? If you support from
belgium, your support would be cut by the attack from london, but that
attack never arrives because the convoy is disrupted, right?
Well if you don't want to take a chance on it, I would support from
helgoland bight and move from Belgium. He could retreat to Holland, but
will almost certainly retreat somewhere more prosaic, like Edi.
What do you think?
Chris
Message from Germany to Austria in 'ruffians':
> >
> > Message from [email protected] as Austria to Germany in 'ruffians':
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > Christian is trying to cut a deal with me. I have strung him along, and
> > this is the info I have gleaned:
> >
> > <<Here is my proposal:
> > Austria:
> > A Pie-Rom
> > F Lyo C A Pie-Rom
> > F Trn C A Pie-Rom
> > A Kie S (English) A Swe-Den
> > A Ber S A Kie
> > A Mun-Ruh
> > A Boh whatever
> > A Bud whatever
> > A Trl-Mun
> > F Greece-ION
> >
> > England:
> > F Mar hold
> > F Spa(sc) s F Mar
> > F MAO-Wes
> > F Eng S A Lon-Bel
> > A Lon-Nth-Bel
> > F Ska S A Swe-Den
> > A Bre-Par
> > A Swe-Den>>
> >
> > As you can see, the North sea is being left unsupported. This leaves two
> > possibilities:
> >
> > Dislodge the North Sea from Belgium ;)
> > Dislodge it from Helgoland Bight..
> >
> > This is some form of a convoy paradox, isn't it? If you support from
> > belgium, your support would be cut by the attack from london, but that
> > attack never arrives because the convoy is disrupted, right?
> >
> > Well if you don't want to take a chance on it, I would support from
> > helgoland bight and move from Belgium. He could retreat to Holland, but
> > will almost certainly retreat somewhere more prosaic, like Edi.
> >
> > What do you think?
>
> Well, Bel-Nth supported by Hel is the obvious choice. Knock em out of Nth and
> force him to support Edi as a home dot (he can't build in Hol).
> If you're not moving to Mar, then I cover Paris with A Bur.
> With this show of E/A amity, why does Christian profess this belated need
> to
> take Wms? He never took it when it was of real use to him (as a foothold
> against
> you).
>
> Paul
>
> >
> >
> > Chris
Message from England to Austria in
'ruffians':
Chris,
You need to tell me more specifically what you intend to move like if you
want me to not go to Wes.
I can agree not to go there if you show me a PLAN you�re having.
Okey?
Christian
Message from Austria to England in 'ruffians':
Christian,
<<I can agree not to go there if you show me a PLAN you�re having.
Okey?>>
Fair enough -- Unless someone leaks something to Turkey, he will be moving
to Tunis, not Naples. As you discerned, that was the plan. I will move G o
Lyon to Westmed, and bounce his followupmove to the Ionian. In the fall, I
will drive him out of Tunis, forcing a retreat OTB or to North Africa. I'll
propose the 4 way to him then.
Does that sound reasonable?
Chris
Message from Austria to Germany in 'ruffians':
Paul,
Sounds like we are thinking along the same lines -- however, I had been
planning on taking Burgundy in the spring. Hmmmm. If He takes Paris as a
result of you supporting me into Marsailles, I could let you into Munich in
the Fall, to keep your SC count even. Would that be acceptable? I would
rather work with you against him than vice versa!
Chris
Message from Austria to Germany in 'ruffians':
Paul,
With this show of E/A amity, why does Christian profess this belated need
> to
> take Wms? He never took it when it was of real use to him (as a foothold
> against
> you).
>
This in fact was MY question -- he claims it would be to help me oust Turkey
from Tunis -- yeah, right!
If you arent going to support me to Marsailles (and I respect that it is
your decision) Please let me know, because I will order my southern fleets
differently if I don't have to cut spain't support.
Thanks!
Chris
Message from England to Austria in
'ruffians':
>Does that sound reasonable?
Okay, this sounds plausible. I will probably move to NAf then. That will
only make his retreat otb for sure. OK?
Christian
set wait
Message from England to Turkey in
'ruffians':
Got this from Chris.
What say you?
Christian
>Message from [email protected] as Austria to England in 'ruffians':
>
>
>Christian,
>
><<I can agree not to go there if you show me a PLAN you�re having.
>
>Okey?>>
>
>Fair enough -- Unless someone leaks something to Turkey, he will be moving
>to Tunis, not Naples. As you discerned, that was the plan. I will move G o
>Lyon to Westmed, and bounce his followupmove to the Ionian. In the fall, I
>will drive him out of Tunis, forcing a retreat OTB or to North Africa. I'll
>propose the 4 way to him then.
>
>Does that sound reasonable?
>
>Chris
>
Message from Germany to Austria in 'ruffians':
>
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Germany in 'ruffians':
>
> Paul,
>
> Sounds like we are thinking along the same lines -- however, I had been
> planning on taking Burgundy
[you mean Marseilles?]
> in the spring. Hmmmm. If He takes Paris as a
> result of you supporting me into Marsailles, I could let you into Munich in
> the Fall, to keep your SC count even. Would that be acceptable?
Eminently acceptable, and preferable.
> I would
> rather work with you against him than vice versa!
>
> Chris
Oh. You had me confused, thinking that you were really convoying A Pie-Rom!
That's just what you were TELLING England. I see. I'll change my orders back,
and support you to Mar after all.
Paul
Message from Turkey to England in 'ruffians':
Christian,
Chris always is looking for a way to stab me. If he is gonna stab now i may
as well go f ion - nap.
Thoughts?
Meef
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 4:46 PM
Subject: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
> This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> Report problems with individual games to your GM.
>
> Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
>
> ***********************************************************
> Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> ***********************************************************
>
> Message from [email protected] as England to Turkey in
> 'ruffians':
>
>
> Got this from Chris.
> What say you?
> Christian
>
> >Message from [email protected] as Austria to England in
'ruffians':
> >
> >
> >Christian,
> >
> ><<I can agree not to go there if you show me a PLAN you�re having.
> >
> >Okey?>>
> >
> >Fair enough -- Unless someone leaks something to Turkey, he will be
moving
> >to Tunis, not Naples. As you discerned, that was the plan. I will move
G o
> >Lyon to Westmed, and bounce his followupmove to the Ionian. In the fall,
I
> >will drive him out of Tunis, forcing a retreat OTB or to North Africa.
I'll
> >propose the 4 way to him then.
> >
> >Does that sound reasonable?
> >
> >Chris
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message from Turkey to Russia in 'ruffians':
Cal, latest of Chris' plots. What do u think about f ion - nap and beat him
to the draw?
Meef
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 8:11 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
> This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> Report problems with individual games to your GM.
>
> Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
>
> ***********************************************************
> Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> ***********************************************************
>
> :: Judge: USEF Game: Ruffians Variant: Standard
> :: Deadline: S1914M Thu Feb 17 2000 23:30:00 PST
>
> Message sent to England:
>
> Message from [email protected] as Turkey to England in 'ruffians':
>
>
> Christian,
>
> Chris always is looking for a way to stab me. If he is gonna stab now i
may
> as well go f ion - nap.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Meef
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 4:46 PM
> Subject: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
>
>
> > This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> > Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> > Report problems with individual games to your GM.
> >
> > Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
> >
> > ***********************************************************
> > Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> > (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> > if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> > ***********************************************************
> >
> > Message from [email protected] as England to Turkey in
> > 'ruffians':
> >
> >
> > Got this from Chris.
> > What say you?
> > Christian
> >
> > >Message from [email protected] as Austria to England in
> 'ruffians':
> > >
> > >
> > >Christian,
> > >
> > ><<I can agree not to go there if you show me a PLAN you�re having.
> > >
> > >Okey?>>
> > >
> > >Fair enough -- Unless someone leaks something to Turkey, he will be
> moving
> > >to Tunis, not Naples. As you discerned, that was the plan. I will
move
> G o
> > >Lyon to Westmed, and bounce his followupmove to the Ionian. In the
fall,
> I
> > >will drive him out of Tunis, forcing a retreat OTB or to North Africa.
> I'll
> > >propose the 4 way to him then.
> > >
> > >Does that sound reasonable?
> > >
> > >Chris
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> End of message.
>
> Movement orders for Spring of 1914. (ruffians.062)
>
> Turkey: Fleet Aegean Sea -> Ionian Sea.
> Turkey: Fleet Ionian Sea -> Tunis.
> Turkey: Fleet Bulgaria (south coast) HOLD.
> Turkey: Fleet Smyrna -> Constantinople.
>
Message from Turkey to Russia in 'ruffians':
Cal,
I changed my moves as listed below. Do think this is ok or am i goofing up
and should go back as agreed with Chris. I know Chris is looking to stab
me. Christian could be double-crossing me, but I KNOW that is the way Chris
operates.
Should u issue an order such as a rum s bul with no attack on Chris,
hopefully he will just be angry with me and stay off of your back and give u
ber as promised (for what that is worth)?
Should u issue an order such as a rum - ser, and we go back to the
negotiating (or lying) table with Chris?
Thoughts?
Meef
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
> This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> Report problems with individual games to your GM.
>
> Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
>
> ***********************************************************
> Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> ***********************************************************
>
> :: Judge: USEF Game: Ruffians Variant: Standard
> :: Deadline: S1914M Thu Feb 17 2000 23:30:00 PST
>
> 'Wait' status set.
>
> Movement orders for Spring of 1914. (ruffians.062)
>
> Turkey: Fleet Aegean Sea -> Greece.
> Turkey: Fleet Ionian Sea -> Naples.
> Turkey: Fleet Bulgaria (south coast) SUPPORT Fleet Aegean Sea -> Greece.
> Turkey: Fleet Smyrna -> Eastern Mediterranean.
>
>
> You have set 'wait' status so orders will not be processed
> before Thu Feb 17 2000 23:30:00 PST.
>
>
Message from Russia to Turkey in 'ruffians':
> Message from [email protected] as Turkey to Russia in 'ruffians':
>
>
> Cal, latest of Chris' plots. What do u think about f ion - nap and beat
him
> to the draw?
>
> Meef
I didn't really want to move this early, but it's becoming pretty obvious
that England is leaking everything we tell him to Austria. That includes
the plan to bounce you in North Africa in the Fall. It might not be a bad
idea to cross them both up.
The downside is twofold: 1) we're not THAT ready to stab Chris and 2) it
could throw the two of them into bed together.
What do you think?
Cal
Message from Russia to Turkey in 'ruffians':
> Message from [email protected] as Turkey to Russia in 'ruffians':
>
> Cal,
>
> I changed my moves as listed below. Do think this is ok or am i goofing
up
> and should go back as agreed with Chris. I know Chris is looking to stab
> me. Christian could be double-crossing me, but I KNOW that is the way
Chris
> operates.
How do you think Christian could be doublecrossing you? What has he offered
or said?
> Should u issue an order such as a rum s bul with no attack on Chris,
> hopefully he will just be angry with me and stay off of your back and give
u
> ber as promised (for what that is worth)?
>
> Should u issue an order such as a rum - ser, and we go back to the
> negotiating (or lying) table with Chris?
>
> Thoughts?
I'll order A Rum to support F Bul and then, if you don't get Greece, I'll
use it to cut A Ser support in the Fall. I think I could use the credit
with Chris for the one extra turn to hold or take Berlin.
Cal
Message from Russia to Austria in 'ruffians':
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Russia in
'ruffians':
>
> I'm back from Denver. It was fun, but I am stressed. What word from the
> north?
Not much. Christian is, I assume, doing the new Dad thing and hasn't
written and Meef and I haven't exchanged letters in the last several days.
Guess it's one of those periodic lulls.
One thing I meant to ask you about from well before you left: Christian has
asked me to move the St Pete fleet to Livonia as a sign of goodwill. Just
wanted to know your feelings on that.
Cal
Message from Austria to Russia in 'ruffians':
cal,
no caps, there is a baby on my lap! re: move to livonia -- that would give
you f liv/a pru/aber for the fall, right? if that works for you, ok -- the
road to the baltic can go thru liv if thats how you want to play it.
best,
chris
Message from Russia to Austria in 'ruffians':
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Russia in
'ruffians':
>
> no caps, there is a baby on my lap! re: move to livonia -- that would
give
> you f liv/a pru/aber for the fall, right? if that works for you, ok --
the
> road to the baltic can go thru liv if thats how you want to play it.
ROFL, does that bring back memories. If it's feeding time, I bet you have a
towel on your shoulder too! <G>
F Lvn/A Ber/A Pru is cool and exactly what I had hoped for. I'm comfortable
with leaving Sil clear, which is what I assume you prefer.
Grandpa Cal
Broadcast message from Russia in 'ruffians':
In keeping with the general baby theme of this game, I just found out I'm
going to be a granddaddy for the second time. The wife's daughter made the
announcement today.
Oh, BTW, Chris and Christian: as Daddy's, you get forced to do everything
with babies just "to be fair", but as a granddaddy, you're not even trusted
to warm the bottles. *AND* you get to give them back when you're done
playing... Something to look forward to in 20 years or so... heh heh.
Grandpa Cal
Message from Russia to England in 'ruffians':
Can't remember if I wrote back to you about your request that the fleet in
St Pete's go to Livonia. If that's what you want, that's where it will go.
I want to show some trust so that we can take Chris down.
Cal
Message from Austria to Russia in 'ruffians':
cal -- towel on shoulder, yes! congrats on new g-childe. ;)
Rum S Bul/ Ukr -> Sev, yes? as agreed? if meef treacherous, we punish him
together?
chris
Message from Russia to Austria in 'ruffians':
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Russia in
'ruffians':
>
> cal -- towel on shoulder, yes! congrats on new g-childe. ;)
Ta! d;-})
> Rum S Bul/ Ukr -> Sev, yes? as agreed? if meef treacherous, we punish
him
> together?
Punish Meef, yes. Ukr-Sev, no. Still supporting Rum in place which should
be harmless enough, right? If you don't believe me, feel free to support an
attack on Rumania. Will that make you comfortable enough? If Meef wants
Greece, it's his anyway, so do what you feel you need to do.
Cal
Message from Austria to Russia in 'ruffians':
Cal,
Ok, baby is asleep, I can type again! ;)
<<Punish Meef, yes. Ukr-Sev, no. Still supporting Rum in place which
should
be harmless enough, right? >>
Is it just me, or didn't we agree to DMZ Ukraine AND Galicia? I mean, the
whole Idea here was to get the three of us working collectively against
England -- but you seem to want to make concession after concession to
him -- south coast, move to livonia. When I bring a (I think) very valid
concern about meef to light, Nada. you wont even move the army back to Sev,
As you agreed you would?
<<?). I WILL move Ukr-Sev. I'd like to see Gal back in Vie. Is this
copascetic?
>>
I am asking you to stick to this one. Galicia is in Bohemia, and moving
towards the Boot. I just cant keep sending armies away from home without
some security. If you are in Sev, and Meef bails into naples, i will at
least have SOME hope of you moving to Armenia as a retaliatory gesture. At
the very least I can threaten it. ;)
You did agree that you would move back to sev. I thought we were pretty
clear that the plan for the fleet in StPete was to menace England, and
distract him from sending forces south. I am starting to smell RaT here, if
you know what I mean. Reassure me. ;)
Chris
Message from Austria to Russia in 'ruffians':
Cal,
Just opened up my map to see what your problem might be. I think I see your
concern now.
Its that I would roll Bohemia right back into galicia, while taking Rumania,
leaving you outflanked in the south.
hhhm. ok. I was pretty focused on breaking through into France, but I can
see as how those armies are making you nervous. If I move Bud -> vie in the
spring, and then maybe back in the fall, would you -- in the fall -- move
Ukr -> Sev? I want to work something out in the south.
Until we agree on something in the south, and unless it's REAL clear to me
that your next build will be F stP (NC!)! I am going to hold in Berlin.
Fair enough?
Chris
Message from Russia to Austria in 'ruffians':
I'll answer this one cuz it's so much friendlier... <G>
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Russia in
'ruffians':
>
> Just opened up my map to see what your problem might be. I think I see
your
> concern now.
>
> Its that I would roll Bohemia right back into galicia, while taking
Rumania,
> leaving you outflanked in the south.
The light dawns. You have the potential with all those little red armies,
to hit me pretty hard should you choose. I understand your nervousness, but
I think you can understand mine as well. Don't forget, *I'm* the guy who has
had his home centres occupied by four other countries this game... I come
by my paranoia quite honestly, thank you. d;-})
> hhhm. ok. I was pretty focused on breaking through into France, but I
can
> see as how those armies are making you nervous. If I move Bud -> vie in
the
> spring, and then maybe back in the fall, would you -- in the fall -- move
> Ukr -> Sev? I want to work something out in the south.
If you do it this way, I have absolutely no objection. Simply remove the
potential threat to Rum for one turn and I can slip into Sev and support Rum
from there, no problems.
> Until we agree on something in the south, and unless it's REAL clear to me
> that your next build will be F stP (NC!)! I am going to hold in Berlin.
>
> Fair enough?
Now you're talking my language. The fleet on the North coast will be built.
With two fleets and an army that I'll move up there, I can honestly mount an
offensive. The single fleet that you wanted me to build last time wasn't
enough. A second fleet is a real factor that I can be quite happy with.
I'll ask you the same question: fair enough?
Cal
going to bed...
Message from England to Russia in
'ruffians':
>Can't remember if I wrote back to you about your request that the fleet in
>St Pete's go to Livonia. If that's what you want, that's where it will go.
>I want to show some trust so that we can take Chris down.
You did write back, but once more is always good :)
I am talking to Meef about Med actions, we will no doubt find something
good to do. I just hope Paul gets eliminated soon...
Christian
Retreats
Message from England to Russia and Turkey in 'ruffians':
Gentlemen,
If I understand the situation rightly Chris gains Rum and looses Greece and
Nap this year (or if he retreats to Tus with Lyo he kan keep Nap and Rom
but then looses Mar again). I think we can take him down in a few years if
we work hard together.
Cal, will you be going to Baltic please?
Meef, you go to ION I move to Wes?
all the best
Christian
Message from Germany to Austria in 'ruffians':
Chris:
I don't think Christian trusts you....
Paul
Message from Austria to Germany in 'ruffians':
Paul,
Hmmm. What makes you think that? ;)
Chris
Message from Austria to Russia in 'ruffians':
Cal,
This is all your fault. ;)
Well, at least in some part, though it is really my fault for letting Turkey
out of the Box.
In any case, I haven't looked at the board too closely, but I think I was
right when I said that the correct alliance structure at this point was R/A
vs E/T -- remember I said that? Still interested? I do have a plan, and
it's one that doesn't involve Austrian occupation of Russian home centers.
However, it DOES involve trusting me to act in my own best interest,
something Meef seems incapable of doing.
Best,
Chris
Message from Austria to Turkey in 'ruffians':
MiKal,
(And it is Mikal and not Meef, now that you've stabbed me again, right? ;)
Too bad -- I wish I could say I didn't see that coming, but that wouldn't be
true -- Christian TOLD me it would be coming. Still, I had to give you the
chance.
I just got back from a tournament in Denver, and I once again learned
something -- some players will just continually attack me, without rhyme or
reason, whether it is in their best interests or not. I hope that is not
the case here! ;)
Thoughts on what will happen from here?
Chris
Message from Austria to England in 'ruffians':
Christian!
One would think you didn't trust me! I am hurt! Wounded! Stabbed! ;)
Still think we can call a four way? Hmm -- maybe take down Russia and make
it a three way, but no more English armies on the continent, what do you
say?
Chris
Message from Turkey to Russia in 'ruffians':
Cal,
I think Christian and Chris are about the same as far as trustworthy.
This is how I see it:
Austria / Germany are plotting against England
Austria / Germany are plotting against Russia
Austria / Germany are plotting against Turkey
Austria / England are plotting against Turkey
Austria / England are plotting against Russia
Austria / England are plotting against Germany
Russia / England are plotting against Austria
Russia / England are plotting against Germany
Russia / Turkey are plotting against Austria
Russia / Turkey are plotting against Germany
Turkey / England are plotting against Austria
Turkey / England are plotting against Germany
Turkey / Russia are plotting against Austria
Turkey / Russia are plotting against Germany
Turkey / Russia are allies
How in Heaven's name am I supposed to sort this out?
All this double-crossing head games we are playing is giving me a headache.
I guess u r gonna have to fight for Berlin.
Looks like Christian tipped me and Chris off.
Any ideas on how to proceed.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 5:22 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
>
>
> This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> Report problems with individual games to your GM.
>
> Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
>
> ***********************************************************
> Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> ***********************************************************
>
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Turkey in
> 'ruffians':
>
>
> MiKal,
>
> (And it is Mikal and not Meef, now that you've stabbed me again,
> right? ;)
>
> Too bad -- I wish I could say I didn't see that coming, but that
> wouldn't be
> true -- Christian TOLD me it would be coming. Still, I had to
> give you the
> chance.
>
> I just got back from a tournament in Denver, and I once again learned
> something -- some players will just continually attack me,
> without rhyme or
> reason, whether it is in their best interests or not. I hope that is not
> the case here! ;)
>
> Thoughts on what will happen from here?
>
> Chris
>
>
Message from Turkey to Austria in 'ruffians':
Chris,
This is the most double crossing game I have ever been associated with. I
would like to plead innocence in the same way you insinuate but that is
ridiculous. All I ask is u stick with the plans we settle on instead of
going to every other player on the board plotting how u can "dupe and stab"
the Sultan. :))
Thoughts on how to proceed:
summer:
f gol retreat to pie
fall:
Turkey to keep Nap and Gre
Austria to keep Mar and Tun
(even trade)
Winter:
Turkey build 2 fleets
Austria disband 1 fleets
(the way we had planned all along)
Next year:
Austria fights with armies in the North
Turkey fights with fleets in the south
Now that is a plan that has potential!!!!!!!!!!
As far as I am concerned, no harm no foul.
Ally Meef (even more courteous than ever)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 5:22 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
>
>
> This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> Report problems with individual games to your GM.
>
> Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
>
> ***********************************************************
> Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> ***********************************************************
>
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Turkey in
> 'ruffians':
>
>
> MiKal,
>
> (And it is Mikal and not Meef, now that you've stabbed me again,
> right? ;)
>
> Too bad -- I wish I could say I didn't see that coming, but that
> wouldn't be
> true -- Christian TOLD me it would be coming. Still, I had to
> give you the
> chance.
>
> I just got back from a tournament in Denver, and I once again learned
> something -- some players will just continually attack me,
> without rhyme or
> reason, whether it is in their best interests or not. I hope that is not
> the case here! ;)
>
> Thoughts on what will happen from here?
>
> Chris
signon truffians 1926,
Press to a,
Chris,
This is the most double crossing game I have ever been associated with. I
would like to plead innocence in the same way you insinuate but that is
ridiculous. All I ask is u stick with the plans we settle on instead of
going to every other player on the board plotting how u can "dupe and stab"
the Sultan. :))
Thoughts on how to proceed:
summer:
f gol retreat to pie
fall:
Turkey to keep Nap and Gre
Austria to keep Mar and Tun
(even trade)
Winter:
Turkey build 2 fleets
Austria disband 1 fleets
(the way we had planned all along)
Next year:
Austria fights with armies in the North
Turkey fights with fleets in the south
Now that is a plan that has potential!!!!!!!!!!
As far as I am concerned, no harm no foul.
Ally Meef (even more courteous than ever)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 5:22 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
>
>
> This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> Report problems with individual games to your GM.
>
> Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
>
> ***********************************************************
> Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> ***********************************************************
>
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Turkey in
> 'ruffians':
>
>
> MiKal,
>
> (And it is Mikal and not Meef, now that you've stabbed me again,
> right? ;)
>
> Too bad -- I wish I could say I didn't see that coming, but that
> wouldn't be
> true -- Christian TOLD me it would be coming. Still, I had to
> give you the
> chance.
>
> I just got back from a tournament in Denver, and I once again learned
> something -- some players will just continually attack me,
> without rhyme or
> reason, whether it is in their best interests or not. I hope that is not
> the case here! ;)
>
> Thoughts on what will happen from here?
>
signon truffians 1926
Press to a,
Chris,
This is the most double crossing game I have ever been associated with. I
would like to plead innocence in the same way you insinuate but that is
ridiculous. All I ask is u stick with the plans we settle on instead of
going to every other player on the board plotting how u can "dupe and stab"
the Sultan. :))
Thoughts on how to proceed:
summer:
f gol retreat to pie
fall:
Turkey to keep Nap and Gre
Austria to keep Mar and Tun
(even trade)
Winter:
Turkey build 2 fleets
Austria disband 1 fleets
(the way we had planned all along)
Next year:
Austria fights with armies in the North
Turkey fights with fleets in the south
Now that is a plan that has potential!!!!!!!!!!
As far as I am concerned, no harm no foul.
Ally Meef (even more courteous than ever)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 5:22 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
>
>
> This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> Report problems with individual games to your GM.
>
> Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
>
> ***********************************************************
> Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> ***********************************************************
>
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Turkey in
> 'ruffians':
>
>
> MiKal,
>
> (And it is Mikal and not Meef, now that you've stabbed me again,
> right? ;)
>
> Too bad -- I wish I could say I didn't see that coming, but that
> wouldn't be
> true -- Christian TOLD me it would be coming. Still, I had to
> give you the
> chance.
>
> I just got back from a tournament in Denver, and I once again learned
> something -- some players will just continually attack me,
> without rhyme or
> reason, whether it is in their best interests or not. I hope that is not
> the case here! ;)
>
> Thoughts on what will happen from here?
>
> Chris
signon truffians 1926,
Press to a,
Chris,
This is the most double crossing game I have ever been associated with. I
would like to plead innocence in the same way you insinuate but that is
ridiculous. All I ask is u stick with the plans we settle on instead of
going to every other player on the board plotting how u can "dupe and stab"
the Sultan. :))
Thoughts on how to proceed:
summer:
f gol retreat to pie
fall:
Turkey to keep Nap and Gre
Austria to keep Mar and Tun
(even trade)
Winter:
Turkey build 2 fleets
Austria disband 1 fleets
(the way we had planned all along)
Next year:
Austria fights with armies in the North
Turkey fights with fleets in the south
Now that is a plan that has potential!!!!!!!!!!
As far as I am concerned, no harm no foul.
Ally Meef (even more courteous than ever)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 5:22 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
>
>
> This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> Report problems with individual games to your GM.
>
> Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
>
> ***********************************************************
> Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> ***********************************************************
>
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Turkey in
> 'ruffians':
>
>
> MiKal,
>
> (And it is Mikal and not Meef, now that you've stabbed me again,
> right? ;)
>
> Too bad -- I wish I could say I didn't see that coming, but that
> wouldn't be
> true -- Christian TOLD me it would be coming. Still, I had to
> give you the
> chance.
>
> I just got back from a tournament in Denver, and I once again learned
> something -- some players will just continually attack me,
> without rhyme or
> reason, whether it is in their best interests or not. I hope that is not
> the case here! ;)
>
> Thoughts on what will happen from here?
>
> Chris
Message from Turkey to England in 'ruffians':
Christian,
Thanks SO MUCH for the tip. I hope to gain control of Ion this season.
Meef
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 4:48 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Diplomacy notice: ruffians
>
>
> This Diplomacy Adjudicator sponsored by David Kovar.
> Report JUDGE Problems to [email protected]
> Report problems with individual games to your GM.
>
> Please do NOT run RT games on this judge.
>
> ***********************************************************
> Any unmoderated games on this judge will be removed.
> (I.e., if you don't have a master, the game is in jeopardy.
> if in doubt, send a list <gamename>)
> ***********************************************************
>
> Message from [email protected] as England to Russia and
> Turkey in 'ruffians':
>
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> If I understand the situation rightly Chris gains Rum and looses
> Greece and
> Nap this year (or if he retreats to Tus with Lyo he kan keep Nap and Rom
> but then looses Mar again). I think we can take him down in a few years if
> we work hard together.
>
> Cal, will you be going to Baltic please?
>
> Meef, you go to ION I move to Wes?
>
> all the best
> Christian
>
>
>
>
>
Message from Russia to Turkey in 'ruffians':
> Message from [email protected] as Turkey to Russia in 'ruffians':
>
> I think Christian and Chris are about the same as far as trustworthy.
Now THAT'S damning with faint praise... <g>
> This is how I see it:
>
> Austria / Germany are plotting against England
> Austria / Germany are plotting against Russia
> Austria / Germany are plotting against Turkey
> Austria / England are plotting against Turkey
> Austria / England are plotting against Russia
> Austria / England are plotting against Germany
> Russia / England are plotting against Austria
> Russia / England are plotting against Germany
> Russia / Turkey are plotting against Austria
> Russia / Turkey are plotting against Germany
> Turkey / England are plotting against Austria
> Turkey / England are plotting against Germany
> Turkey / Russia are plotting against Austria
> Turkey / Russia are plotting against Germany
> Turkey / Russia are allies
>
> How in Heaven's name am I supposed to sort this out?
Tylenol is good. I think our best bet is to simply assume all the above and
make sure we remember the last one. It's the only thing that's going to
keep us healthy and viable.
> All this double-crossing head games we are playing is giving me a
headache.
Se above re: Tylenol.
> I guess u r gonna have to fight for Berlin.
> Looks like Christian tipped me and Chris off.
>
> Any ideas on how to proceed.
Well, Chris has already written asking me to stab you in return for him
backing off from my home centres. I'm going to have to tell him I'll go
along with it, but there's not a snowball's chance in hell I'm going to
change sides now.
Nice work with Gre & Nap. Let's keep the advantage rolling and I'll try to
hang on to enough centres to help you get stronger.
I'll let you know what Chris has to say.
Cal
Message from Russia to Austria in 'ruffians':
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Russia in
'ruffians':
>
> This is all your fault. ;)
Sorry, this habit you have of stabbing and getting stabbed all on the same
turn is one you developed years before you met me...
> Well, at least in some part, though it is really my fault for letting
Turkey
> out of the Box.
Uh huh.
> In any case, I haven't looked at the board too closely, but I think I was
> right when I said that the correct alliance structure at this point was
R/A
> vs E/T -- remember I said that? Still interested? I do have a plan, and
> it's one that doesn't involve Austrian occupation of Russian home centers.
> However, it DOES involve trusting me to act in my own best interest,
> something Meef seems incapable of doing.
Y'know, each time you stab me, you lessen the validity of your argument
about me attacking Turkey. He's the one guy I can actually trust to do what
he says he's going to do.
I'm willing to listen to your plan for backing off Russian home centres (and
that includes Rumania, buddy. I didn't just fall off the cabbage truck...)
and I might even consider carrying through the attack on England, BUT one
move against War or Rum and I throw everything at *you*, English victory be
damned.
Your move,
Cal
Message from Russia to England and Turkey in
'ruffians':
> Message from [email protected] as England to Russia and
> Turkey in 'ruffians':
>
> If I understand the situation rightly Chris gains Rum and looses Greece
and
> Nap this year (or if he retreats to Tus with Lyo he kan keep Nap and Rom
> but then looses Mar again). I think we can take him down in a few years if
> we work hard together.
>
> Cal, will you be going to Baltic please?
No problem. I'll be throwing everything I have at Chris.
Cal
Message from Austria to Turkey in 'ruffians':
Meef, (And I use this name accordingly!)
I was thinking the same sort of thing. You might be interested to know that
I didn't approach anyone about double-crossing you last year -- (Well, ok,
Cal and I continued our dialogue about the perils of working with turkey,
but I don't count that! We both know where we stand there at this
oint.) -- Christian actually approached me with a grand plan for holding
you off, predicated on the idea that I would help him into German dots. I
agreed, stringing him along, and found that you had revealed the details of
our agreement to him! ;(
Or, to quote Christian "he said he would be doing the Tunis thing, but not
the North Africa thing"
So, I went to Cal, and said, can you believe this? 'Cause I can't!
<<ll:
Turkey to keep Nap and Gre
Austria to keep Mar and Tun
(even trade)>>
I like the way you give me things I allready have in exchange for things you
are taking from me, and call the exchange even. ;) That is a real
diplomacy skill! Nonetheless, Greece and "a mediteranean dot" were to be
yours this year, so, as you say, no harm, no foul.
Shall we work out details in a more detailed fashion?
Chris
Broadcast message from Observer in 'ruffians':
Hey, what's the deal here, are you guys vicious or what???
Is this one of those cases where the only players without a
dislodged unit (England and Turkey) are making the "big moves"
or are there going to be some creative forward retreats??
The observers are hanging on the edges of their seats.....
Jim-Bob
Message from Austria to Russia in 'ruffians':
Cal,
Well, I did tell you I would do something about Turkish perfidy, didn't I?
This was all I could do -- put a lot of leverage on you!
<<I'm willing to listen to your plan for backing off Russian home centres
(and
that includes Rumania, buddy. I didn't just fall off the cabbage truck...)
and I might even consider carrying through the attack on England, BUT one
move against War or Rum and I throw everything at *you*, English victory be
damned.>>
CARRY THROUGH?? You call StP south coast and a move to Livonia an attack
against England!?! I only should hope you attack ME so effectively! ;)
Seriously. IF there was a fleet in NC as we discussed, you would be in
Berlin now. Heck, if you were in the Gulf of Friggin Bothnia, we wouldn't
be discussing this. But NO, Can't piss England off by actually moving to a
province adjacent to a SC he controls, he might, he might -- He might come
and try to take StPete Back! Well, you've Pissed Austria off instead, and I
assure you I can do more than TRY to take your dots! (Deep breathing. Deep
breathing. Too many uncles dead of heart attacks in their 30s) ;)
Seriously. I refuse to believe you didn't have a part in the Turkish "ahem"
alteration of the plan. I came to you with valid concerns, in an attempt to
determine how far I could expect you to go to work with me, and the answer
was an unequivical nowhere. I would MUCH rather be in Munich and the Ruhr
than Galicia and Silesia, but if this is the only way to guard my southern
flank, to occupy it with My armies, well so be it.
I am sure you don't like the above, but you're going to like the rest of
this even less. My plan is this:
A Silesia Retreat OTB
Fall --
Support A Serbia -> Bulgaria (thus guaranteeing I wont attack Rum.)
A Prussia -. Warsaw
A Ukraine S A Prussia -> Warsaw
F Livonia -> Gulf of Bothnia
winter -- Build F StPete NC.
Thats the deal. Become aNorthern Fleet power and you have nothing I want or
need. Keep your armies to fight me and I will (ahem, shades of Kruschev
here) I will Bury you! (Imagine the shoe banging on the computer, if you
will)
Chris
Broadcast message from Russia in 'ruffians':
Well, ladies and germs, I think this game may be coming to it's logical
conclusion.
For the last several game years, Chris has been threatening to throw the
game to Christian if Russia/Turkey didn't roll over and die. Based on his
actions this turn and subsequent e-mails to me, I can only believe that this
is exactly what he is doing. I figure we may as well save some time and get
on to other games.
I'm hereby proposing a concession to England. Please vote with your Fall
orders. I'll cast my vote here in public as a yes. Nice game, Christian!
Cal
signof
Broadcast message from Master in 'ruffians':
Just looked at the original settings of the game. Since we never
voted to change the game from NoDIAS to DIAS, the game really should
still be NoDIAS.
Any objections?
Rick
Message from Russia to Master in 'ruffians':
Don't let my public "Yes" vote fool you; I vote NO to the concession.
Cal
Broadcast message from Russia in 'ruffians':
Um, sorry to ask, but I guess I'm STILL a Judge newbie.
I know how to set draw, but how does set concession?
Cal
Broadcast message from Russia in 'ruffians':
> Broadcast message from [email protected] as Master in
'ruffians':
>
> Just looked at the original settings of the game. Since we never
> voted to change the game from NoDIAS to DIAS, the game really should
> still be NoDIAS.
>
> Any objections?
Not from me, obviously... <g>
Cal
(Wondering who this Dias guy is and if I'll have to learn Spanish to
play...)
Message from Austria to Russia in 'ruffians':
If you can explain how trying to get you to fight England constitues a
concession to him, I'd like to hear it.
I had a decent shot at a solo a few years back -- when you were on the
ropes, remember? I decided Germany had a Better Shot than I did, and took
what I thought to be appropriate measures.
Now it is England who is a threat, and again I am trying to fight him.
Ok, -- I retract my offer to lay off Rumania. I will take Rumania -- the
rest of the plan remains the same. Retreat those two units off the board,
build a F StPete NC, and I will go no further.
I dont' expect you to go for that. But, looking at the Map, I dont think
there is alot you can do about it anyway. You go to four this year, and
anything you pull reduces your ability to resist me. Warsaw should go next
year, and probably two dots in 1916. Assuming Christian hasn't poached
StPete any sooner, and that Turkey doesn't ask for Sev -- which I would give
him.
I don't want you to die -- I wouldn't be talking to you if I did. I want
you to acknowledge that you are at my mercy, and agree to my terms of
surrender, or spit in my face and tell me you'll die first! We are not
military equals, nor should we negotiate as if we were.
my terms are remove two armies and re-build F StP (NC) or I will try to
eliminate you. I have every expectation of succeeding if I try. You are a
wily and respected opponent, and I know such a battle would not be easy.
But it is FAR preferable to the hedging and carping about that we have had
recently.
Chris
Broadcast message from Austria in 'ruffians':
Cal, you're getting a little too cute for your own good . . .
Chris
Message from Austria to Turkey in 'ruffians':
Meef,
A Plan we can both stick with? How about this. Every time I take a Russian
dot,, you take a Mediterranean dot. I take Sev, you take Rome. I take
Warsaw, you take Tunis.
I will be taking Rumania this turn. I will not trust Cal any further --
this whole F StP (sc) fiasco has gone too far.
You I can work with -- I am looking for a good draw here. If you build
nothing but fleets, as you propose, then My fleets will try to help push
yours forward. Spain and the MAO shouldn't be impossible, given enough
time. If they are, then we still have a good 3way draw.
What do you think?
Chris
Broadcast message from Germany in 'ruffians':
Hey Guys....
We all know that G/A had England seriously on the ropes, and we
could have
taken him out in a couple of seasons. We had R and T similarly beset.
But Austria
decided to stab G (again), and threw in the towel on the English,
Turkish and Russian fronts. Whatever happens until the end, this is
Chris's work (or a piece of it).
Paul
Message from Russia to Austria in 'ruffians':
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Russia in
'ruffians':
>
>
> Cal,
>
> Well, I did tell you I would do something about Turkish perfidy, didn't I?
> This was all I could do -- put a lot of leverage on you!
Makes sense from your end, but it doesn't change the fact that, if I was to
attack Turkey, I'd be out even faster than I will be now, the only
difference being that I'd have BOTH of you attacking me and no chance to
throw centres one way or the other (may not have that option now, but at
least I have a friend in camp).
> CARRY THROUGH?? You call StP south coast and a move to Livonia an attack
> against England!?! I only should hope you attack ME so effectively! ;)
Occupational hazard of playing both sides of the fence. You'll concede that
I really didn't much chocei in the matter? No matter who I offended, I was
going to get attacked. Christian seemed a better bet to stay loyal for an
extra turn or two.
> Seriously. I refuse to believe you didn't have a part in the Turkish
"ahem"
> alteration of the plan. I came to you with valid concerns, in an attempt
to
> determine how far I could expect you to go to work with me, and the answer
> was an unequivical nowhere. I would MUCH rather be in Munich and the Ruhr
> than Galicia and Silesia, but if this is the only way to guard my southern
> flank, to occupy it with My armies, well so be it.
I knew about it, but what ws I going to do? Tip you off? Not likely. But
I didn't encourage him either. If I had the active part you think I did,
I'd be in Galicia right now, no?
<<Diplomatic wet dreams snipped>
> Thats the deal. Become aNorthern Fleet power and you have nothing I want
or
> need. Keep your armies to fight me and I will (ahem, shades of Kruschev
> here) I will Bury you! (Imagine the shoe banging on the computer, if you
> will)
And look what happened to him! He's dead now, right? Umm, right?
Cal
Message from Russia to Austria in 'ruffians':
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to Russia in
'ruffians':
>
>
> If you can explain how trying to get you to fight England constitues a
> concession to him, I'd like to hear it.
That's not what constitutes it and you know it. <g>
You're leaving your back open to him to walk across the stalemate line. He
has a pretty decent shot at taking Tunis, a guarantee of St Pete's if he
wants it and, after Paul is out, you'll have left him the German centres.
That's 18, n'est-ce pas?
> I had a decent shot at a solo a few years back -- when you were on the
> ropes, remember? I decided Germany had a Better Shot than I did, and took
> what I thought to be appropriate measures.
Sure. This game has been purely amazing for countries juggling the balance
of power on the board. Hel, that's why I'm where I am now. I should never
have built that damned fleet in St Pete's in 1901. I should have let England
take his lumps and then dealt with the F/G. Regrets? I've had a few...
> Now it is England who is a threat, and again I am trying to fight him.
Funny direction your armies are taking...
> Ok, -- I retract my offer to lay off Rumania. I will take Rumania -- the
> rest of the plan remains the same. Retreat those two units off the board,
> build a F StPete NC, and I will go no further.
>
> I dont' expect you to go for that. But, looking at the Map, I dont think
> there is alot you can do about it anyway. You go to four this year, and
> anything you pull reduces your ability to resist me. Warsaw should go
next
> year, and probably two dots in 1916. Assuming Christian hasn't poached
> StPete any sooner, and that Turkey doesn't ask for Sev -- which I would
give
> him.
By the time you give Turkey anything, the game's over
> I don't want you to die -- I wouldn't be talking to you if I did. I want
> you to acknowledge that you are at my mercy, and agree to my terms of
> surrender, or spit in my face and tell me you'll die first! We are not
> military equals, nor should we negotiate as if we were.
Agreed, but that doesn't mean I hand you the soap. I'll keep fighting until
you realize that England is about to win. My best prediction now is that my
last army gets popped in St Pete's as England takes it for his 18th centre.
> my terms are remove two armies and re-build F StP (NC) or I will try to
> eliminate you. I have every expectation of succeeding if I try. You are
a
> wily and respected opponent, and I know such a battle would not be easy.
> But it is FAR preferable to the hedging and carping about that we have had
> recently.
Truth to tell, the last few turns have been very frustrating to me for that
exact same reason. I wanted someone to attack, but no matter which way
(England or Austria) I would have went, the other profited far to much. I
hate that, so all I was trying to do was grow enough to be able to pick a
direction. Admitedly, it was 60-40 that I attacked you, but with Christian
in the Med, I could have probably been talked into an *effective* attack
northwards. He'd have to be dealt with eventually anyway.
Okay then, your call. Eliminate me if you can (and you probably can) and
let Christian walk into his 18th centre (my next letter will be to invite
him north by the way) or disengage, let me build another fleet (NORTH coast,
so you can quote this to me later) and deal with Turkey
S'up?
Cal
Message from Russia to Austria in 'ruffians':
> Broadcast message from [email protected] as Austria in
'ruffians':
>
>
> Cal, you're getting a little too cute for your own good . . .
Dunno. Got the idea from you with your draw proposal a few turns ago. <G>
Cal
Message from Observer to Germany in 'ruffians':
Don't respond through the Judge to this, but I want to put two or
three things on the game record to you, realizing that other people
can dig them up with History commands.
1. Put bluntly, I don't see how England gets an 18 center victory solely
with Austrian cooperation, I just don't.
2. I can't see how Cal can be doing anything except a very public
diplomatic ploy to get other people (like, say, you) to do something
different.
3. Chris moves awfully quickly to "throw game" tactics, doesn't he.
It is interesting, high level negotiating.
I'm going to step back into the background now, but if you do want
to say something to me, be sure to either use broadcast and say
it to everyone, or send me direct E-Mail.
Jim
>
> Broadcast message from [email protected] as Germany in 'ruffians':
>
>
> Hey Guys....
> We all know that G/A had England seriously on the ropes, and we
> could have
> taken him out in a couple of seasons. We had R and T similarly beset.
> But Austria
> decided to stab G (again), and threw in the towel on the English,
> Turkish and Russian fronts. Whatever happens until the end, this is
> Chris's work (or a piece of it).
>
> Paul
>
Broadcast message from France in 'ruffians':
> We all know that G/A had England seriously on the ropes, and we
> could have
I don't think G/A ever *really* existed.
There was a point where Austria could have made a real play for a solo but
unfortunately it coincided with the birth of Chris' kid, and he seemed a
little bit off his game for those 2 weeks. Other than that I think it was
always an issue as to whether Austria or England would come out on top, and
I think R/T sticking together is what made the difference. With all of
Austria, Russia, and England still alive into the mid- and end-game, I don't
think Germany (the power) was ever going to be part of any end game.
Literally *thousands* of games of Diplomacy have shown that Germany has to
get two of his 4 neighbors eliminated to be a factor in the end game or to
solo, and even then it has to pick up a good share of both those
eliminations. This was never the case in "ruffians". ( I harken back to an
EoG that was submitted to the GM in 1902 [which none of you have seen yet]
that called for exactly the ending we are about to see)
I also give Chris a lot of credit. Despite the fact that of course under
perfect diplomacy England could be kept from a solo, I'm consistently amazed
by the amount of PBeM players who don't believe that someone would actually
"throw" a game, as a negotiating point. They always think it is "just a
threat". So every once in a while you actually do get forced into a position
where even though you don't want to throw it, you have to because the end
result is the same (here, an English solo). So I think Chris has done some
good, because in addition to making an attempt at holding off the English
(which if accepted would have worked), but also by his offer not being taken
seriously enough in time and his then *following thru* on his threat, he's
shown that in fact threats made, at least by Chris Martin, actually do have
some bite. And that's a skill that good face-2-face dip players have got to
have in their arsenal.
Since the emotions involved in throwing a game (and having one thrown on
you) are counter to every day socialization skills, it can be really tough
to distinguish when the right time to throw game will be, and to determine
how much sooner in the process you have to threaten to do it so as to not
only make the threat credible but also leave you enough time to work through
your own emotional reticience towards doing it when the time comes to
actually perform the act. In short it takes a lot of skill and fortitude of
self-analysis to distinguish between when to threaten for correct tactical
reasons versus when to threaten for purely emotional ("I don't wanna play
with you no more") reasons. I can think of no game other than Dip where you
ever get to explore the subtle distinction between the two in your own
psyche.
What a game Diplomacy is.